Free Will

[EndLightEnd]

If you accept that cause/effect governs everything (i.e. each effect has a cause) then free-will (in terms of undetermined choice) can not exist, as to do so requires something to intervene in the causal chain - something that is not governed by cause / effect - which is contrary to the premise.
This is a logically valid argument.
The only question is whether the premise (that cause/effect governs everything) is true or not.

This is very nicely broken down. As far as we have been able to tell up until the last 80 years or so everything operates based on cause/effect, and the corresponding forces acting.

I believe this is where quantum mechanics enters the equation because simply perceiving has been shown to cause an effect in quantum experiments.
The world you see is nothing more than potential of the quantum world being actualized by continuous conscious interaction. You can train your conscious to actualize different potentials, hence the old adage "mind over matter." However you cannot actualize different potentials at once, and everyones conscious involved plays a part. The dominant conscious memes in a culture determine what potentials are actualized and consequently how the world appears to that culture. This is how the media works, it repeats certain ideas and values to you until your consciousness embraces it and accepts it as reality. It is hard to understand how you can direct your consciousness (and thus your reality) unless you have given meditation a serious try.
Your conscious is like many horses all tied to a knot in the center. Which ever horse you coax (ie either the negative or positive horse) will end up pulling you in that direction. This is why people inherently seem to be positive or negative, but really these people are choosing to be that way.
Meditation is the art of centering your mind so no horses are pulling, and suddenly you realize you can "choose" which horse you want to do the pulling.

 

[Sarkus]

This is very nicely broken down. As far as we have been able to tell up until the last 80 years or so everything operates based on cause/effect, and the corresponding forces acting.

I believe this is where quantum mechanics enters the equation because simply perceiving has been shown to cause an effect in quantum experiments.
The world you see is nothing more than potential of the quantum world being actualized by continuous conscious interaction. You can train your conscious to actualize different potentials, hence the old adage "mind over matter." However you cannot actualize different potentials at once, and everyones conscious involved plays a part. The dominant conscious memes in a culture determine what potentials are actualized and consequently how the world appears to that culture. This is how the media works, it repeats certain ideas and values to you until your consciousness embraces it and accepts it as reality. It is hard to understand how you can direct your consciousness (and thus your reality) unless you have given meditation a serious try.
Your conscious is like many horses all tied to a knot in the center. Which ever horse you coax (ie either the negative or positive horse) will end up pulling you in that direction. This is why people inherently seem to be positive or negative, but really these people are choosing to be that way.
Meditation is the art of centering your mind so no horses are pulling, and suddenly you realize you can "choose" which horse you want to do the pulling.

Interesting slant - but if we assume to begin with that cause/effect at the micro-level is true, anything above micro-level, including the media, including meditation is deterministic (accepting probabilistic outcomes) by logic. And while meditation might appear to offer much, my understanding is that our perception of things by our consciousness occurs a long time (relatively speaking) after the actual observation / interaction. We therefore are unable to do anything about it at a conscious level - i.e. influence that observation. It might be the case that one's subconscious is "trained" to perceive in a certain way.

I have to admit that, not being an advocate of Free-will as anything other than illusion, it is impossible to word sentences and thoughts in a language that does not imply it throughout. So please do not take the use of such language itself to be admittance of what it is not intended to be.

Moving on. T
The only place that cause/effect can break down is at the micro - with the introduction of QM. But I am not sure that QM breaks the cause/effect notion, or even the deterministic view, as opposed to merely complicates it.
Heisenberg's uncertainty principle doesn't - that merely suggests it is impossible to know everything to be able to make a determination as an observer (can't know both position and vector, for example) but it does not break the notion that one moment is determined by the preceding. Fair enough, as an observer we can't determine anything, but that in itself does not invalidate the Deterministic view, I don't think (please correct me if I'm wrong).
Certainly observation is apparently a causation, i.e. in crystallising a wave function - and possibly the interaction between cause/effect isn't yet known precisely (or if it is, I confess to not knowing / understanding it), but I am not sure it breaks cause/effect, although I do admit to needing to read more on the subject.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

You can train your conscious to actualize different potentials, hence the old adage "mind over matter."

I "prollem-solve" all thru-out the day by emaginin what will hapen dependin on which course of acton i take... an if it wasnt for the actuality of cause an effect... it woud be imposible to determine what the effects of diferent actons mite be... ie... wit-out cause an effect ther woud be no such thang as logic which is neecesary to emagine potential out-coms.!!!

However you cannot actualize different potentials at once, and everyones conscious involved plays a part. The dominant conscious memes in a culture determine what potentials are actualized and consequently how the world appears to that culture. This is how the media works, it repeats certain ideas and values to you until your consciousness embraces it and accepts it as reality. It is hard to understand how you can direct your consciousness (and thus your reality) unless you have given meditation a serious try.

Yes som people are beter at filterin out garbage an therfor are beter prollem solvers.!!!

Your conscious is like many horses all tied to a knot in the center. Which ever horse you coax (ie either the negative or positive horse) will end up pulling you in that direction. This is why people inherently seem to be positive or negative, but really these people are choosing to be that way.
Meditation is the art of centering your mind so no horses are pulling, and suddenly you realize you can "choose" which horse you want to do the pulling.

Jus like any other form of prollem solvin... meditaton still involves reasons for which you finaly "choose" a particular horse.!!

An whether thru meditaton or not... the ones who are beter at emaginin diferent potentials will be the beter prollem solvers... kinda like when a chess player analyzes the game peices... the 1 who can see mor moves ahead will likely win mor often.!!!

 

[EndLightEnd]

Interesting slant - but if we assume to begin with that cause/effect at the micro-level is true, anything above micro-level, including the media, including meditation is deterministic (accepting probabilistic outcomes) by logic.

This is true, but this assumes matter as the source of consciousness rather than consciousness the source of matter (which QM seems to support).

And while meditation might appear to offer much, my understanding is that our perception of things by our consciousness occurs a long time (relatively speaking) after the actual observation / interaction. We therefore are unable to do anything about it at a conscious level - i.e. influence that observation. It might be the case that one's subconscious is "trained" to perceive in a certain way.

Well thats what meditation essentially does; reprogram your sub conscious. Like I was saying earlier in the horse analogy, our senses are constantly pulling us toward what we perceive as reality all the time, with the exceptions being deep meditation and sleeping. I suggest you try it for at least 30 min a day for two weeks and tell me you arent impressed. Use google for some helpful tips.

The only place that cause/effect can break down is at the micro - with the introduction of QM. But I am not sure that QM breaks the cause/effect notion, or even the deterministic view, as opposed to merely complicates it.
Heisenberg's uncertainty principle doesn't - that merely suggests it is impossible to know everything to be able to make a determination as an observer (can't know both position and vector, for example) but it does not break the notion that one moment is determined by the preceding. Fair enough, as an observer we can't determine anything, but that in itself does not invalidate the Deterministic view, I don't think (please correct me if I'm wrong). [
Certainly observation is apparently a causation, i.e. in crystallising a wave function - and possibly the interaction between cause/effect isn't yet known precisely (or if it is, I confess to not knowing / understanding it), but I am not sure it breaks cause/effect, although I do admit to needing to read more on the subject.

Well then here is an interesting read for you sir...

http://www.integralscience.org/ConsciousQM.html
a random quote...

Thus, we have now revealed beneath the veil of Newton's universe a quantum realm of reality in which objects cannot exist alone, independent of a conscious subject. And while the one unitive subject is free of the limitations of any particular point of view, what becomes actual in each world depends on the observer at the center of that world, the individual mind-body who defines the reference point for that relative world.

This quote makes me think of what we perceive to be alternate dimensions. Different dimensions are merely different projections of the same fundamental reality. These realities cannot see each other because they are on different peaks of the wave function. However a sufficiently evolved being should have no trouble actualizing different potentials at will, thus navigating dimensions.

edit:
Another interesting link I found, youve may know the double slit experiment with detectors already, but starting at the section titled The model experiment in classical conception about 1/3 the way down. It illustrates an important concept concerning free-will using a thought experiment utilizing QM principles.

http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/consciousness/rosenblum_kuttner.htm

 

[thinking]

perhaps we can see Free-Will as the ability to criticise , question and to analyze other positions upon any question(s) upon any subject

it seems to me that without the abilities above we would stagnate

as we did for so long with Aristotle's ideas

perhaps in a way Free-Will for us all is a collective thing > an attitude , rather than just a personal thing

it just know occured to me this idea , about Free-Will

 

[cluelusshusbund]

perhaps we can see Free-Will as the ability to criticise , question and to analyze other positions upon any question(s) upon any subject

If free-will is defined that way... then it esists.!!!

it seems to me that without the abilities above we would stagnate

Yes... souns awful.!!!

perhaps in a way Free-Will for us all is a collective thing > an attitude , rather than just a personal thing

it just know occured to me this idea , about Free-Will

Did that idea occur for no reason.???

 

[thinking]

perhaps in a way Free-Will for us all is a collective thing > an attitude , rather than just a personal thing

it just know occured to me this idea , about Free-Will

Did that idea occur for no reason.???

no

it seems that we think of Free-Will as a purely personal attitude , which it can be , look at Leonardo da Vinci for instance

which really , I think , is a good example of Free-Will personal

which went against the church as we know

but the thing is , is that , Freedom of-Will , has also got to do with the collective populace as well

the populace has also the ability to supress any idea(s) or cultivate ideas

 

[Quantum Quack]

...Sarkus

Yes, I would care to comment.
You are incorrect in your interpretation, as far as I can see.

Determinism means that a given moment is determined by the moment before... that the same conditions will lead to the same output (albeit somewhat complicated if you allow for probabilistic outcomes).

Whether it is affected by one or an infinite number of other dominoes is irrelevant - dominoes do not do any calculation or anything that takes time to work out... it just acts. Every causation from all the infinite (or finite) other dominoes affect the domino at the same moment, leading to the next moment.

Does an asteroid in space suddenly slow down if it gets near a planet 'cos it suddenly has to start calculating the effect of gravity on it? Does it slow down even more if it enters a multi-body system?



If you accept that cause/effect governs everything (i.e. each effect has a cause) then free-will (in terms of undetermined choice) can not exist, as to do so requires something to intervene in the causal chain - something that is not governed by cause / effect - which is contrary to the premise.
This is a logically valid argument.
The only question is whether the premise (that cause/effect governs everything) is true or not.

To help explain undeterminable determinism I have drawn this simple diagram:

If every choice has an infinite causation [ due ot infinite variables] then every choice must be free willed.

If one assumes that the will is in a closed system [universe] and escape from that system is impossible except by one possible way [ unconsciousness or death] then the will is able to be deemed to be free will.

Because those infinite variables are acting on a solitary decision or choice which is made by the chooser. All possible alternatives are included in that choice. If all possible alternatives are included in that choice then that choice must be free. [We are ot talking about the conditioned freewill that we commonly have as conscious but the entire will including the subconscious etc etc.
And because the alternatives include unconsciousness and death the ability to escape the system provides the ultimate degree of freedom available from that system.
So if you extend your finite causality to the infinite [ which must surely be the case] you may see what I am getting at....[not that it is correct as it is only a line of enquiry]

 

[cluelusshusbund]

perhaps in a way Free-Will for us all is a collective thing > an attitude , rather than just a personal thing

it just know occured to me this idea , about Free-Will

Did that idea occur for no reason.???

no

I agree... an i thank it was an inescapable chane of events that lead to that idea.!!!

it seems that we think of Free-Will as a purely personal attitude , which it can be , look at Leonardo da Vinci for instance

which really , I think , is a good example of Free-Will personal

which went against the church as we know

Do you thank Leonardo went agans the church for no reason.???

but the thing is , is that , Freedom of-Will , has also got to do with the collective populace as well

the populace has also the ability to supress any idea(s) or cultivate ideas

It seems that you'r arguein agans "free-will"... cause you'r givin reasons of how "will" is supressed/ant free.!!!

 

[thinking]

it seems that we think of Free-Will as a purely personal attitude , which it can be , look at Leonardo da Vinci for instance

which really , I think , is a good example of Free-Will personal

which went against the church as we know

Do you thank Leonardo went agans the church for no reason.???

Leonardo

just thought what he thought

 

[thinking]

but the thing is , is that , Freedom of-Will , has also got to do with the collective populace as well

the populace has also the ability to supress any idea(s) or cultivate ideas

It seems that you'r arguein agans "free-will"... cause you'r givin reasons of how "will" is supressed/ant free.!!!

but , in the end am I really ?

 

[DiamondHearts]

Whether you believe in free will or not has no relevance. I will explain.

Muslims, who believe in God (the Creator of the Universe), define free will as the lack of knowledge of the future, hence human beings live their lives with free will. Their entire life is something known before creation to God. To Muslims God exists outside time and space, so past, present, and future have no effect on God, they only effect us because we reside under the laws of God. Thus God allows man to make decisions in his life, but in the end God knows all the decisions man will make. This is because God knows all things, at all times.

As far as the atheist view, human beings are a product of their environment, even human consciousness is a product of evolution. There is no extra-ordinary life spark in humans, and like animals or plants, humans are just biological creatures being acted on by nature. Thus to atheists, what we perceive as free will is not really so.

Thus we see, what we call free will is perceived quiet differently by different people. In reality, the word is deceptive in both cases.

 

[thinking]

Whether you believe in free will or not has no relevance. I will explain.

Muslims, who believe in God (the Creator of the Universe), define free will as the lack of knowledge of the future, hence human beings live their lives with free will. Their entire life is something known before creation to God. To Muslims God exists outside time and space, so past, present, and future have no effect on God, they only effect us because we reside under the laws of God. Thus God allows man to make decisions in his life, but in the end God knows all the decisions man will make. This is because God knows all things, at all times.

As far as the atheist view, human beings are a product of their environment, even human consciousness is a product of evolution. There is no extra-ordinary life spark in humans, and like animals or plants, humans are just biological creatures being acted on by nature. Thus to atheists, what we perceive as free will is not really so.

Thus we see, what we call free will is perceived quiet differently by different people. In reality, the word is deceptive in both cases.

perhaps

but the thing is, is that , Free-Will , true Free-Will , by Humans , is devoid of any god

god is really irrelevent

 

[DiamondHearts]

perhaps

but the thing is, is that , Free-Will , true Free-Will , by Humans , is devoid of any god

Yet the Athiestic idea of free will relies on the environment and biological evolution, therefore in reality, there is no free will. Free will is just an illusion, whether you believe in God as the Creator or simply environment as the creator. It's just sounds nice, it doesn't mean much though.

 

[thinking]

Yet the Athiestic idea of free will relies on the environment and biological evolution, therefore in reality, there is no free will. Free will is just an illusion, whether you believe in God as the Creator or simply environment as the creator. It's just sounds nice, it doesn't mean much though.

the difference between Free-Will by the enviroment and Free-Will god

is that we can over-come the enviroment as Leonardo did

but what Leonardo could not over-come was the religious suppression

you see religion suppresses ideas , whereas the enviroment doesn't

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Whether you believe in free will or not has no relevance. I will explain.

I read you'r post but i didnt see the esplanaton... an you say... "whether you beleive in free-will or not has no relevence"... has no relevence to what.???

Muslims, who believe in God (the Creator of the Universe), define free will as the lack of knowledge of the future, hence human beings live their lives with free will.

That has a ring of honesty about it... i jus thank we live our lifes wit the "illusion" of free will.!!!

But acordin to those Muslim beleifs... sinse God does have knowedge of the future... then God does not have free will.???

Their entire life is something known before creation to God. To Muslims God exists outside time and space, so past, present, and future have no effect on God, they only effect us because we reside under the laws of God. Thus God allows man to make decisions in his life, but in the end God knows all the decisions man will make. This is because God knows all things, at all times.

Befor God created humans... God (if he has free-will) desided esactly how he woud design humans to behave... so humans can not behave any other way than they were designed to behave... an sinse God is all-knowin... the instent he desided on the creaton plan he woud put into acton... the fates of all humans was sealed... they can never do anythang diferent than what God has always known they wooud do... an that has nuthin to do wit whether God is outside of time an space (whatever that is) or not.!!!

But anybody can make up any sort of beleifs they want... an as far as facts are concerned... unevidenced beleifs are irrelevent.!!!

As far as the atheist view, human beings are a product of their environment, even human consciousness is a product of evolution. There is no extra-ordinary life spark in humans, and like animals or plants, humans are just biological creatures being acted on by nature. Thus to atheists, what we perceive as free will is not really so.

That dont necesarly jus aply to atheists... but it does seem fact-based/logical.!!!

Thus we see, what we call free will is perceived quiet differently by different people. In reality, the word is deceptive in both cases.

I see whare its deceptive as taut by the Muslim beleifs... but how is the atheist/fact-based ideas about free-will deceptive.???

 

[thinking]

As far as the atheist view, human beings are a product of their environment, even human consciousness is a product of evolution. There is no extra-ordinary life spark in humans, and like animals or plants, humans are just biological creatures being acted on by nature. Thus to atheists, what we perceive as free will is not really so.

That dont necesarly jus aply to atheists...

actually less than

but it does seem fact-based/logical.!!!

not really

if we were nothing more than the enviroment then how does one go beyond just the immediate enviroment ?

 

[DiamondHearts]

the difference between Free-Will by the enviroment and Free-Will god

is that we can over-come the enviroment as Leonardo did

but what Leonardo could not over-come was the religious suppression

you see religion suppresses ideas , whereas the enviroment doesn't

People may suppress ideas, but Muslims believe in the law of God which the environment is part of that. Truth cannot be suppressed, it exists regardless of what we say or do. In the end, a spade is a spade.

I read you'r post but i didnt see the esplanaton... an you say... "whether you beleive in free-will or not has no relevence"... has no relevence to what.???

To how you live your life.

That has a ring of honesty about it... i jus thank we live our lifes wit the "illusion" of free will.!!!

But acordin to those Muslim beleifs... sinse God does have knowedge of the future... then God does not have free will.???

God is the only one who has true 'free will,' because His will is independent of all creation. Ours is not.

Befor God created humans... God (if he has free-will) desided esactly how he woud design humans to behave... so humans can not behave any other way than they were designed to behave... an sinse God is all-knowin... the instent he desided on the creaton plan he woud put into acton... the fates of all humans was sealed... they can never do anythang diferent than what God has always known they wooud do... an that has nuthin to do wit whether God is outside of time an space (whatever that is) or not.!!!

God does not have to define Himself to us, but we must explain ourselves to God. What God wishes, He does. There does not have to be a logic behind it.

But anybody can make up any sort of beleifs they want... an as far as facts are concerned... unevidenced beleifs are irrelevent.!!!

Hence truth is independent of us. It exists whether we accept it or not.

That dont necesarly jus aply to atheists... but it does seem fact-based/logical.!!!

Yeah, its the athiest view which I have explained. Yet to athiests the question remains then, why do only humans have free will?

I see whare its deceptive as taut by the Muslim beleifs... but how is the atheist/fact-based ideas about free-will deceptive.???

According to the Atheist view, we are a product of our environment and biological evolution, thus people can't really control how they act as nature governs the choices they make in their life. Society being an extension of nature. Thus this idea negates free will. According to Athiests, no human has free will because that implies we are not governed by external forces like nature.

The religious view, Muslim in particular, accepts free will as the will of God, thus our will exists inside God's will and is limited by the limits set by God Himself. Thus we are given free will, to a degree, but we are still governed by the environment and other factors, which can effect our decision making, and also our future actions are all known by God before they occur. These factors are taken into account when we are judged by God. This is a bit complicated, but you will understand if you view God as outside creation and the limits of creation, thus time is of irrelevance to God.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

if we were nothing more than the enviroment then how does one go beyond just the immediate enviroment ?

I dont understan... please give an esample of what "go beyond just the immediate enviroment" means.???

 

[thinking]

Originally Posted by thinking
if we were nothing more than the enviroment then how does one go beyond just the immediate enviroment ?

I dont understan... please give an esample of what "go beyond just the immediate enviroment" means.???

pure survival only