Free Will

[cluelusshusbund]

Are you'r sayin that when you have a thout... that thout is free from influence... in other words... thouts are "free-will" because they are uncaused.???

actually no

So you do thank you'r thouts have causes.???

but free will is the ability to choose between causes...but caused it is....regardless.

Well ther-in lies the rub... cause-an-effect is like a row of dominos standin up nest to each other... when 1 falls over into the other the chane reacton will continue on... an the domino at the end dont know whats comin... but whether it thanks it has a choise or not to stay standin up or to fall down... its fate is sealed.!!!

We mostly feel that we have numerous thangs to choose from... but do we realy.???

Ever thout we have is influenced (controled) by the thout (other influences) that preceeded it... an like a row of fallin dominos... each thout we have is controled by prevous stimulus... an i dont know of any circumstance that brakes that continuin chane of events we call "thankin"... tharfor... if vanella icecream an chocolate ice cream is put befor you an you "choose" chocolate... was it an uninfluenced choise... or was ther reasons which caused (forced) you pick chocolate.???

In other words... it was inevitable that you woud wind up eatin chocolate icecream... an the "feelin" that you made a choise was only an illusion.!!!

 

[swarm]

is jus an illusion of choise...

No, people actually do make choices.

thers a chane of events that will only allow the person to "choose" the nest link in the chane... an if all the conditons are the sam... no mater how often that scenerio is played out... the nest thang the person "chooses" to do will always be the sam thang.!!!

Its easy to claim that but it just isn't the case. Even in highly constrained environments, people are not entirely predictable as you would like to think even on choices which are heavily influenced, like eating.

Now how choices come about may not track with how our internal dialog explains them, but choices still get made and it is not possible to predict them with complete reliability.

Your choice to write like you are an imbecile, for example.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Are you'r sayin that when you have a thout... that thout is free from influence... in other words... thouts are "free-will" because they are uncaused.???



So you do thank you'r thouts have causes.???



Well ther-in lies the rub... cause-an-effect is like a row of dominos standin up nest to each other... when 1 falls over into the other the chane reacton will continue on... an the domino at the end dont know whats comin... but whether it thanks it has a choise or not to stay standin up or to fall down... its fate is sealed.!!!

We mostly feel that we have numerous thangs to choose from... but do we realy.???

Ever thout we have is influenced (controled) by the thout (other influences) that preceeded it... an like a row of fallin dominos... each thout we have is controled by prevous stimulus... an i dont know of any circumstance that brakes that continuin chane of events we call "thankin"... tharfor... if vanella icecream an chocolate ice cream is put befor you an you "choose" chocolate... was it an uninfluenced choise... or was ther reasons which caused (forced) you pick chocolate.???

In other words... it was inevitable that you woud wind up eatin chocolate icecream... an the "feelin" that you made a choise was only an illusion.!!!

so you have an infinite number of dominos all interconnected and every one of them determined.

to determine one domino would take an infinite amount of time which renders it indeterminable thus freewill exists simply because it is indeterminate determination..causality is the same thing.

If and infinite variable is being applied then free will is valid . It is only when a finite causalitity is being applied that we have oppression. [which is always the case]

 

[cluelusshusbund]

No, people actually do make choices.

Its easy to claim that but it just isn't the case. Even in highly constrained environments, people are not entirely predictable as you would like to think even on choices which are heavily influenced, like eating.

Now how choices come about may not track with how our internal dialog explains them, but choices still get made and it is not possible to predict them with complete reliability.

I dont mean to suggest at all... that people are entirely predictable.!!!

Your choice to write like you are an imbecile, for example.

Insult noted.!!!

 

[cluelusshusbund]

so you have an infinite number of dominos all interconnected and every one of them determined.

to determine one domino would take an infinite amount of time which renders it indeterminable thus freewill exists simply because it is indeterminate demtermination..causality is the same thing.

If and infinite variable is being applied then free will is valid . It is only when a finite causalitity is being applied that we have oppression. [which is always the case]

blink blink

 

[swarm]

Please set up a scenerio that demonstrates those 2 conditons.!!!

I was throwing a party with some friends and afterward one of the toilets needed to be mucked out.

I had a number of possible choices since we were at a rented facility. I could have ignored it, gotten some one else to do it, or do it myself.

Now it is hard to convey the level of nasty here. It was just blocked. People had continued using it any way, including puking in it. Also I was in no way required to take on this task.

If we lacked free will it would be reasonable to expect I would not attempt to fix it since I didn't have to. Certainly several other people did choose to avoid it. However I chose to over ride my instinctual desire to avoid it and got it working again. An act of free will.

If my will was independent, the task would have been much easier to accomplish once the decision was arrived at. However I had to contend with a strong visceral reaction to the stench and constituents of the toilet which were pushing against my initial decision to finish the task.

So free will and independent will.

 

[swarm]

i suspect that dreams have causes jus like anythang else.

"Causes" which you can only "suspect" are just phantasms.

 

[swarm]

We have only one of two options; life or death.

We have many, many options. Very few of them are matters of live or death.

Thus implicating the disingenuity of free will. We are governed by conditioning.

No we are only influenced by conditioning and it is a tool we can use for our on purposes.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Free will is the ability to choose. Independent will would be freedom from influences. ”

Please set up a scenerio that demonstrates those 2 conditons.!!![

I was throwing a party with some friends and afterward one of the toilets needed to be mucked out.

I had a number of possible choices since we were at a rented facility. I could have ignored it, gotten some one else to do it, or do it myself.

Now it is hard to convey the level of nasty here. It was just blocked. People had continued using it any way, including puking in it. Also I was in no way required to take on this task.

If we lacked free will it would be reasonable to expect I would not attempt to fix it since I didn't have to. Certainly several other people did choose to avoid it. However I chose to over ride my instinctual desire to avoid it and got it working again. An act of free will.

If my will was independent, the task would have been much easier to accomplish once the decision was arrived at. However I had to contend with a strong visceral reaction to the stench and constituents of the toilet which were pushing against my initial decision to finish the task.

So free will and independent will.

Was ther any influence that caused you to fix the toilet.???

 

[swarm]

Because there is unpredictability there is Chaos

The two are not synonymous.

our Universe is a Chaotic One.

Our universe has elements of both what we consider order and what we consider chaos, but like a photon is neither a particle nor a wave even though it has behaviors of both a particle and a wave, the universe is neither order nor chaos even though it exhibits characteristics of both.

Then it has Free Will.

Neither this nor the other conclusions you draw are supportable.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
i suspect that dreams have causes jus like anythang else.

"Causes" which you can only "suspect" are just phantasms.

Thanks.!!!

 

[swarm]

Are you'r sayin that when you have a thout... that thout is free from influence... in other words... thouts are "free-will" because they are uncaused.???

I said the contrary: will is not free from influences.

There is no direct causal chain which can be demonstrated for the choices one makes. While advertisers have wet dreams about such causality, it remains a fantasy.

So you do thank you'r thouts have causes.???

How thoughts arise and become choices is indeterminate.

Choices are not simple cause and effect. For example, what external force is causing you to write like you are an imbecile?

In other words... it was inevitable that you woud wind up eatin chocolate icecream... an the "feelin" that you made a choise was only an illusion.!!!

If that were actually the case it would be easy to demonstrate. But even though I like chocolate, I rarely choose chocolate ice cream. And yet it is not the case that I never choose chocolate ice cream. Your claims seem to have no substance.

 

[swarm]

I dont mean to suggest at all... that people are entirely predictable.!!!

That is exactly the implication of your position.

Insult noted.!!!

I did not say that you actually are an imbecile. I am just acknowledging that you are purposefully choosing to write like an imbecile. Just like you chose a picture made to look like an imbecile for your avatar and allude to being an imbecile in your name and tag line.

No doubt like most people who play this game you think your purile word play ever so terribly clever and you hope it will some how attract a member of the opposite sex so you can get laid.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
Are you'r sayin that when you have a thout... that thout is free from influence... in other words... thouts are "free-will" because they are uncaused.???

I said the contrary: will is not free from influences.

There is no direct causal chain which can be demonstrated for the choices one makes. While advertisers have wet dreams about such causality, it remains a fantasy.

How thoughts arise and become choices is indeterminate.

Choices are not simple cause and effect. For example, what external force is causing you to write like you are an imbecile?

I been writin this way for about 10 years... prolly a bit beter befor that... but ive always been a bad speller... an after strokin while joggin an bashin my head on the pavment didnt improve anythang... however... i ant needed a wheel chaare or even cruthches for about 2 years now... but bak to my schoolin... my parents didnt really care what grades i made as long as i didnt fale a grade... i guess... an a "c" average was plenty good enuff for me... i certanly didnt want the embrasment of falin a grade... it was oK wit my parents that i quit school at 15 an it was certanly oK wit me... i suspect brane prollems has a lot to do wit my inability to remenber how to spell words... but a lot of my writin style is jus habbit an i tend to type the way i talk... i didnt take typin in school cause it wasnt offered till the 10 grade an i quit in the 9th grade... but i started learnein how to type about 10 years ago an i mostly use 3 fangers an my thums... when i cant even seem to spell a word close enff to understan what it is i will look it up an get it spelled corectly... i can write stuff that is spelled corectlly an make good soundin sentences but it takes forever an my typin is slow enuff as it is... so i jus type the way im used to an is comfortable for me... other wize postin is to much of a burdon to be fun... but jus because i dont know all the reasons for everthang dont mean that everthang dont have reasons.!!!

If that were actually the case it would be easy to demonstrate. But even though I like chocolate, I rarely choose chocolate ice cream.

is ther a reason for that... or do you rarely "choose"to eat chocolate icecream for no reason.???

And yet it is not the case that I never choose chocolate ice cream.

Your claims seem to have no substance.

When you do choose to eat chocolate... is it for a reason.???

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
I dont mean to suggest at all... that people are entirely predictable.!!!

That is exactly the implication of your position.

Well it woud have been nice if you had quoted what i said that gave you that impresson... but i dont know of anythang thats entirely precictable.!!!

I did not say that you actually are an imbecile. I am just acknowledging that you are purposefully choosing to write like an imbecile. Just like you chose a picture made to look like an imbecile for your avatar and allude to being an imbecile in your name and tag line.

My now x wife an her online boyfrind started callin me "clueluss husbund" about 11 years ago... that avitar pitcher was presented to me about 7 years ago... an in a diferent discuss groop i was givin the name of complete dullard aboout 4 years ago... i jus laff about such stuff... an im comfortable wit myself (my now x wife wasnt... she was embrased to be marryed to a husband in a wheel chare) an i dont run an hide from negetive thangs like that... i have fun wit it to... also ive been called a drunk... but i dont drank smoke or do drugs an i even avoid caffeen an sugar... im perty much a helth food nut an i bake 2 loafs of hole wheet bread ever week... O... an im also a vegetarian.!!!

No doubt like most people who play this game you think your purile word play ever so terribly clever and you hope it will some how attract a member of the opposite sex so you can get laid.

I dont know what "purlle" means an i ant gonna look it up... i will jus asume its an insult... lol... but im almos 60 an have been happly marryed for the las several years so i ant lookin for online "love"(never have)... im actually fathful to my wife an we trust each other compoletely... i will "play-flirt" wit women online but never in private... my wife reads it somtimes an thanks its funny as i do



PS
I guess the worst thang ive been called here is "sock-puppet"... so i thank i can live wit that... LOL.!!!

 

[swarm]

I been writin this way for about 10 years

Your backstory isn't really that interesting. You can immediately improve your spelling by clicking the spell checker in the upper right corner of the edit box. It is the icon with the abc above a check mark.

is ther a reason for that... or do you rarely "choose"to eat chocolate icecream for no reason.??? When you do choose to eat chocolate... is it for a reason.???

Sometimes there is. Sometimes there isn't. Sometimes its a mix.

 

[Sarkus]

No, people actually do make choices.

No, they don't. They are directed by a chain of cause/effect at the micro-level that began whenever the Universe began (if it did) and will end with the death of the universe.

Its easy to claim that but it just isn't the case. Even in highly constrained environments, people are not entirely predictable as you would like to think even on choices which are heavily influenced, like eating.

You're looking too macro-level.
Cause/effect occurs at the micro-level as well.
The unpredictability you refer to is due to the probability function of the effects of each cause. E.g. a single cause might have 20% chance of 5 separate effects. But this does not negate cause/effect.
Which is why two identical set-ups might have multiple outcomes.
But this is still predictable.

And this chain of cause-effect occurs at the smallest time-interval possible. If you knew everything about everything at one specific time interval then you could predict, within the realms of probability, the next moment.

The "will" you exerted to make what you saw as a choice was nothing more than the culmination of a massively complex chain of cause and effect up to the moment of "choice". But there was no choice. At no point did an external party to the chain of cause/effect select one option over another. The "choice" is inextricably interwoven in the chain... the unbreakable chain.

Now how choices come about may not track with how our internal dialog explains them, but choices still get made and it is not possible to predict them with complete reliability.

Don't confuse unpredictability with existence of free-will / choice.
Just because things are not predictable in reality (it is not possible to know everything about everything), even allowing for probability, it does not mean choices are made. It just means we can not predict actions.



Imagine a chain of dominoes... at some point in the chain there is a split in the chain and a mechanism that randomly only allows one of the paths to continue.
This equates to a single cause having a probability of two different effects.

Free-will / choice suggests that an outside force determines which path is taken.

And if you hold that free-will / choice exists then please detail how the force/thing interacts with the chain of dominoes, without it, too, being part of another such chain?

 

[Tnerb]

Sometimes I wonder if you guys have excelled beyond the o pening post.

 

[Jozen-Bo]

The two are not synonymous.

I meant to write "where there is unpredictability there is chaos". I didn't say that the two are the same, though they are certainly connected.

Our universe has elements of both what we consider order and what we consider chaos, but like a photon is neither a particle nor a wave even though it has behaviors of both a particle and a wave, the universe is neither order nor chaos even though it exhibits characteristics of both.

I presented only half, the other half is that of an ordered Universe, off course. There are rules even in Chaos, we can find them when we look at the scales of magnitude within the mix-up itself. What your saying here is correct.

Neither this nor the other conclusions you draw are supportable.

Much of what I say cannot be supported externally, meaning only by gathering direct experience can one find the support needed to understand. This does not equate to everything that I conclude being unsupportable. If I tell you God spoke to me, how could I possibly support this? Obviously it cannot be done, though the experience unto me is support at an individual level. If I say this Universe is a Chaotic one, this is based of rigorous research that is not my own and that is well supported and even proven mathematically more then once. Be careful about over generalization when judging or evaluating the words of others.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

You can immediately improve your spelling by clicking the spell checker in the upper right corner of the edit box. It is the icon with the abc above a check mark.

Thanks... but ive tryed usin spell check befor... an you dont understan my particular situaton... but me tryin to use spell check is like bein stuck in glue of havin to look up in a dictonary the diferent words offered to see which 1 i realy need... an the worst paart is... when i do all that an get the corect word spelled corectly... as soon as i look away from the word i still dont remenber how to spell it.... an if i had to go thru that all the time i woud rarely post... som people refuse to reply to me because of the way i spell an ive excepted that over the years.!!!

...even though I like chocolate, I rarely choose chocolate ice cream.

“is ther a reason for that... or do you rarely "choose"to eat chocolate icecream for no reason.??? When you do choose to eat chocolate... is it for a reason.???”

Sometimes there is. Sometimes there isn't. Sometimes its a mix.

So you'r sayin that somtimes you do thangs for no reason... so when you do thangs for no reason... do you consider that as you'r "will" bein free.???

Do you thank when you do thangs for "no-reason" that its caused by a malfuncton in the human brane... an do you thank thangs can hapen for no reason to an inanimate object such as a Television or an automobile.???