Free Will?
- Thread starter yuri_sakazaki
- Start date
Ok here's the rub. Observing the results of free choice ahead of time is one thing. But, if god saw that you were going to eat chocolate ice cream tomorrow AND told you that now, do you still have the free will to change your mind and eat vanilla instead? Just for the heck of it? Apparently not. That's what revelations in the bible is all about. God tells us exactly what's going to happen way ahead of time and we can't change it with our free will. Even if we wanted to. Also, by already seeing the future and the results of your free will, god can tell you right now if you will go to heaven or hell. Would you like to know if you were doomed or not? God already knows. Do you see the ridiculousness of that?
I saw a star trek-voyager episode on tv once where a person was charged for a crime that he was going to commit in the future. This person didn't even know what he was going to do wrong yet. But it almost makes sense. If he was going to be charged in the future for a crime, then why not charge him now? Why wait for him to commit it?
I laughed my ass off when I watched that show.
I saw a star trek-voyager episode on tv once where a person was charged for a crime that he was going to commit in the future. This person didn't even know what he was going to do wrong yet. But it almost makes sense. If he was going to be charged in the future for a crime, then why not charge him now? Why wait for him to commit it?
I laughed my ass off when I watched that show.
mario said:
This -- "God tells us exactly what's going to happen way ahead of time and we can't change it with our free will." -- needs clarification.
*You* do not know yet what will happen to *you*.
What is clear is (so God's promise) that those who refuse God will face eternal damnation.
It is no different than the human laws, for example, "If you are going to commit murder of 1st degree, you will be charged with the capital punishment", or "If you drive too fast, you will face charges in accordance with the law".
I can see how this is considered to be a predicion of the future: but it is just justice.
The ridiculousness of that is to think that God will tell you these things now.
God is not a magician or a sorcerer whom you could command around.
This amounts to the argument that it would have been better if existence wouldn't happen at all. Pessimism.
How about an agnostics' definition....
Free will is the ability to make independent choices that are subject to change at any given moment. That's why this whole notion of "seeing the future" just doesn't jive with free will. It should be impossible to predict the random, everchanging whimsical nature of free will.
Free will is the ability to make independent choices that are subject to change at any given moment. That's why this whole notion of "seeing the future" just doesn't jive with free will. It should be impossible to predict the random, everchanging whimsical nature of free will.
Cris said:
The paradox lies in the proposition that omniscience includes the absolute knowledge of future as if the future (time) is already laid out like any spacial dimension. Future is nothing but yet to happen hence is non-existent at present.
Arguing that an omniscient God should know absolutely about the future (non-existing) is akin to that an omniscient God should know absolutely about how many teeth an invisible green cow (non-existing) has. Atleast, i don't expect this type of difinition for omniscience, that is nonsense as you said, from atheists (viz you, the preacher, miss-something etc).
And an omnipotent God having his own free-will can make the future
as he likes rather than predetermining anything in advance for the sake of having 'absolute knowledge about future'. In short, predetermining & absolute knowledge about 'future' are not as advantageous as omnipotence, free-will and knowledge about all existing/existed things (omniscience real-time) for God.
no, this is exactly what you have when you define a universe that is designed by an omniscient creator that "predicts" outcomes based on control and manipulation.Cris said:
this is a solid point.
his ability to predict is an ability to predict and his knowledge of events are his knowledge of the events. they are not the same they are different. and neither of them influence the will of the creature in the present to determine its future.
this is weak.
you are saying here
1 we have no choice in the matter of being manipulated by god for the aims of god.
why?
2because free will doesnt exist
why?
3the creator is omniscient
whats wrong with that?
4 omniscient creators exclude humans with free will and humans with free will exclude omniscient creators. we can not have both.
that is what you are saying isnt it Cris?
First, God may have allowed somethings in the future by knowing these people's free will is restricted. For instance, he knows what Satan will do because Satan has been condemned. He knew what Pharoah would do because Pharoah had hardened his heart.
Second, if God cannot create knowledge, then God must know the future. But if God can create knowledge, then God can create the future but not yet know the future, the future not yet existing.
okinrus said:
okinrus, you don't know what you are talking about.
God quite obviously hardened Pharoah's heart and then some years later provided a cop out justification for it through his patriarchal oracle. It also follows that Pharoah was condemned in advance.
Sorry I haven't posted for three pages; I haven't had access to my computer. Everneo, in addition to God making the future if He had no knowledge of it, wouldn't we also be making the future with our own decisions? This is possibly the best explanation I've read yet (though maybe it's just because its the most recent good one I've read). However, at the time of our creation, He would have had to create us blindly, without really knowing how we were going to turn out and what we would be like in order to not know what decisions we would make, and therefore not know the future. In having created everything and knowing how it operates, He knows what choices they will make and therefore know the future. So in order for your explanation to work, we would have to have been created (on an individual basis, not that of the race) 1: Blindly, so all of our qualities are accidental, and therefore 2: We should then not have any individual 'calling' or purpose, because He can't 'assign' it to us if He doesn't know how we could possibly carry it out (ie, then a man could have a purpose wished by God that the man couldn't fulfill given his situation).
This -- "God tells us exactly what's going to happen way ahead of time and we can't change it with our free will." -- needs clarification. (water)
I was refering to my previous statement about what revelations in the bible is all about. God basically tells us (in revelations) that this country is going to do this (invade israel), and that person (antichrist) is going to do that, etc etc.
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"The ridiculousness of that is to think that God will tell you these things now.
God is not a magician or a sorcerer whom you could command around." (water)
I'm not saying that we demand god to tell us what he sees. I'm just saying what if he wants to tell you the future on his own free will? Like all the prophecies of armageddon that he wrote about for us to read in the book of revelations?
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"This amounts to the argument that it would have been better if existence wouldn't happen at all. Pessimism." (water)
I was being sarcastic. I was making fun of the logic of punishing someone before they actually committed the crime. That's why I was laughing so hard when I was watching it.
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"What is your refutation of determinisn?" (water)
I don't refute determinism. Determinism is definitely free will. A strong, driving will to succeed. But it does not guarantee success just because you want it so bad. You may be determined to become a millionaire rock star or win the the heart of your dream girl/guy, but it doesn't mean that it's going to happen. And after awhile determinism is subject to wane and wither from frustration of not achieving your goals. But you can still use your free will to choose other goals with just as equal a determination to succeed. Or you can say... "ahhhhhh forget it! I'm going to be a bum!". Everything's possible with free will.
I was refering to my previous statement about what revelations in the bible is all about. God basically tells us (in revelations) that this country is going to do this (invade israel), and that person (antichrist) is going to do that, etc etc.
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"The ridiculousness of that is to think that God will tell you these things now.
God is not a magician or a sorcerer whom you could command around." (water)
I'm not saying that we demand god to tell us what he sees. I'm just saying what if he wants to tell you the future on his own free will? Like all the prophecies of armageddon that he wrote about for us to read in the book of revelations?
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"This amounts to the argument that it would have been better if existence wouldn't happen at all. Pessimism." (water)
I was being sarcastic. I was making fun of the logic of punishing someone before they actually committed the crime. That's why I was laughing so hard when I was watching it.
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"What is your refutation of determinisn?" (water)
I don't refute determinism. Determinism is definitely free will. A strong, driving will to succeed. But it does not guarantee success just because you want it so bad. You may be determined to become a millionaire rock star or win the the heart of your dream girl/guy, but it doesn't mean that it's going to happen. And after awhile determinism is subject to wane and wither from frustration of not achieving your goals. But you can still use your free will to choose other goals with just as equal a determination to succeed. Or you can say... "ahhhhhh forget it! I'm going to be a bum!". Everything's possible with free will.
staples disconnected
Registered Senior Member
hey water,
Ok, I'm pretty much an atheist, more so than an agnostic anyway.
My idea of free will is this:
We, as biological organisms, do not have complete free will. My actions and choices are made by me, but they are affected by several things.
- My experiences as a human being which create my conscience.
- The chemicals in my brain that create my emotions.
- The pheremones the affect me, as to how I interact with people.
So basically there are subconscious goings-on that impact on my conscious thought, therefore I am not truly of free will.
As well, I think my brain is like a computer chip that develops over time through reinforcement. I am who I am because of what I have experienced. Because I have had experiences, I cannot have definitive free will.
I don't know, haven't thought about it much.
staples
Ok, I'm pretty much an atheist, more so than an agnostic anyway.
My idea of free will is this:
We, as biological organisms, do not have complete free will. My actions and choices are made by me, but they are affected by several things.
- My experiences as a human being which create my conscience.
- The chemicals in my brain that create my emotions.
- The pheremones the affect me, as to how I interact with people.
So basically there are subconscious goings-on that impact on my conscious thought, therefore I am not truly of free will.
As well, I think my brain is like a computer chip that develops over time through reinforcement. I am who I am because of what I have experienced. Because I have had experiences, I cannot have definitive free will.
I don't know, haven't thought about it much.
staples
Can't he (ominpotent) make the future as he wishes (his own free-will) besides the human free-will?yuri_sakazaki said:
If he has own free-will there is no question of blindness. Aslo, he must be sure of something, like, human do not have free-will to go to Sun for vacation.
He might know all the possible outcomes but need not 'fix' one to predetermine that outcome. 'wait & see' game may be what he is upto.
I cannot say whether my explanation would work with God, but i try to say, 'omniscience' (minus the socalled absolute knowledge about future) and freewill can coexist.
Predeterminism & freewill come with various degrees and flavours. I am not sure what was his own freewill while 'creating' humans that have abridged freewill, but i am sure he was not blind. He must be damn sure about what humans can do and cannot do. He surely predetermined that humans cannot visit sun on vacation as of now. If i am omnipotent & has my own free-will i will not break my head over what x is going to do out of his freewill; whatever it would be, i would decide accordingly, being sure of one thing that x is not going to plug my eyes out.
In the end, it all comes down to this:
If you believe you have free will, then you act on this free will.
If you don't believe you have free will, you will continue working as if you had no free will.
We can find many explanations that we either have free will, or not have it, or have it only partially. This can go on endlessly, while our lives pass and our hair gets gray, and we have spent our lives trying to figure out whether we have this bloody free will or not -- instead of doing something. What a shame.
If you believe you have free will, then you act on this free will.
If you don't believe you have free will, you will continue working as if you had no free will.
We can find many explanations that we either have free will, or not have it, or have it only partially. This can go on endlessly, while our lives pass and our hair gets gray, and we have spent our lives trying to figure out whether we have this bloody free will or not -- instead of doing something. What a shame.
Staples is correct about our free will being limited. We do make choices but these choices are based on other influences.
For example:
People who went thru hell in a war experience terrible flashbacks or nightmares. For many, their free will cannot stop these intense flashbacks if the pain was too great at the time.
Some people cannot do something that is totally against their nature. Like killing their children. Nothing will convince them to ever do something like that. So their free will to do 'anything they can think of' won't work for this particular choice.
People who go insane have lost their free will to be rational.
And besides, if god tells us that it is in our nature (which he gave to us) to sin...and it is impossible NOT to sin...then our free will has been greatly compromised. Oh sure you can say that it was the 'original sin' that was passed from adam and eve to us that makes us sin, but who's design was that? Why did god design sin to be transferrable from a sinfull person to someone was is completely innocent? Does that sound fair? Kinda sounds like sin is like a genetic defect in our chromosomes that gets passed from generation to generation.
For example:
People who went thru hell in a war experience terrible flashbacks or nightmares. For many, their free will cannot stop these intense flashbacks if the pain was too great at the time.
Some people cannot do something that is totally against their nature. Like killing their children. Nothing will convince them to ever do something like that. So their free will to do 'anything they can think of' won't work for this particular choice.
People who go insane have lost their free will to be rational.
And besides, if god tells us that it is in our nature (which he gave to us) to sin...and it is impossible NOT to sin...then our free will has been greatly compromised. Oh sure you can say that it was the 'original sin' that was passed from adam and eve to us that makes us sin, but who's design was that? Why did god design sin to be transferrable from a sinfull person to someone was is completely innocent? Does that sound fair? Kinda sounds like sin is like a genetic defect in our chromosomes that gets passed from generation to generation.
Everneo: "Can't he (ominpotent) make the future as he wishes (his own free-will) besides the human free-will?"
Yes, but if He doesn't actively interfere, we would also be making the future with our own free-willed decisions. You say he can change the future with his free-will so why can't we?
"If he has own free-will there is no question of blindness. Aslo, he must be sure of something, like, human do not have free-will to go to Sun for vacation."
This is a bad example. I mean, to not know the future, He would have to not know exactly all of the details of everything He created, because if He creates them specifically in a certain way there is only one path each individual will take. So, He would have to not know this path and therefore not know everything about His creations.
"'wait & see' game may be what he is upto."
He wouldn't have to wait and see if He already knew how His creations work and therefore what they would do.
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The biggest problem with saying He doesn't know the future would be that in this case, the purpose of life is discounted, which makes the notion of God almost pointless. Unless there is a God, and He doesn't know the purpose of life, but then there is no reason to speculate about God at all. If He doesn't know the future, how does He know what we're supposed to be able to do? He could have enough limited knowledge of us to know what we are capable of, but have created us slightly blindly so that He wouldn't know which paths we would choose. This seems like a ridiculously unnecessary complication.
Yes, but if He doesn't actively interfere, we would also be making the future with our own free-willed decisions. You say he can change the future with his free-will so why can't we?
"If he has own free-will there is no question of blindness. Aslo, he must be sure of something, like, human do not have free-will to go to Sun for vacation."
This is a bad example. I mean, to not know the future, He would have to not know exactly all of the details of everything He created, because if He creates them specifically in a certain way there is only one path each individual will take. So, He would have to not know this path and therefore not know everything about His creations.
"'wait & see' game may be what he is upto."
He wouldn't have to wait and see if He already knew how His creations work and therefore what they would do.
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The biggest problem with saying He doesn't know the future would be that in this case, the purpose of life is discounted, which makes the notion of God almost pointless. Unless there is a God, and He doesn't know the purpose of life, but then there is no reason to speculate about God at all. If He doesn't know the future, how does He know what we're supposed to be able to do? He could have enough limited knowledge of us to know what we are capable of, but have created us slightly blindly so that He wouldn't know which paths we would choose. This seems like a ridiculously unnecessary complication.
audible said:
if we are talking about an omni-god then he has to be omni-god (ALL that is, that was, and is to come),
if we are talking about an omni-god that is limited in his foresight and cant really create phenomenom P because of condition C then we are not talking about an omni-god, we are just trying to make a variety of concepts fit an unclear understanding.