Free Will?

[Adstar]

firstly lets expand on you theme just for the fun of it.
Ie on that day your son goes on a killing spree, and kills fifty people.
so in answer, of course it does, because you know you cant change it, (which negates your free will) and your son cant change if you told him, because it's pre ordained(which negates his free will).

No it doesn't I have the free will to return back in time and tell my son do not kill i still have free will. But not the power to control his free will, He still has the free will to disregard my advice and go on a killing spree. Just because i know he is going to go on a killing spree does not mean i have forced his decision either way.

know you cant change it, (which negates your free will)

It seems you are getting power of control over another and free will mixed up? Just because i have no control over my sons final decision does not mean i have no free will.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Cris]

Ozymandias,

he knows all of the possible outcomes of every single possible decision every single person could ever make?

Which is exactly the same thing as saying he doesn’t know what is going to happen. For example – given a six sided dice I know all the possible outcomes that could occur when I throw the dice. What I don’t know is which of the possibilities will occur.

In the case of an omniscient god he will know exactly which actions will occur with certainty. In which case there can be no variation and hence human free will is impossible.

 

[ellion]

In the case of an omniscient god he will know exactly which actions will occur with certainty. In which case there can be no variation and hence human free will is impossible.

you are saying that because god sees the outcome of our choices we dont have the ability to choose.
care to elaborate?

 

[mario]

It's more like we can't surprise god at the last minute by choosing something else. But having free will we should be able to do that, no? It's like if I knew that you were going to have chocolate ice cream for desert tomorrow, would it be possible for you to change your mind and have vanilla instead? If not then your free will to choose vanilla ice cream does not exist.

 

[ellion]

It's like if I knew that you were going to have chocolate ice cream for desert tomorrow, would it be possible for you to change your mind and have vanilla instead?

it not like this at all. but staying with your analogy.
you knowing what i willl choose does not mean you have prevented me from choosing something else. you knowing my choice because you have seen my choice, means you have seen what i will choose, you have observed my choice. i could not pick something else because i picked chocolate ice cream, not because your observation made me pick chocolate ice cream.

If not then your free will to choose vanilla ice cream does not exist.

Iif i changed my mind, i would not have picked chocolate ice cream and you would not have observed me choose chocollate ice cream.

your observation of me does not effect my choice

staying within your analogy, if you observed me choose chocolate ice cream yesterday would it be possible to change my mind and choose vanilla yesterday? answer has to be no. why? because i have already chosen and eaten the ice cream.
did your observation of me choosing chocolate ice cream yesterday
restrict my freedom to choose between chocolate and vanilla?

 

[water]

You impute an attitude to me of elitist? Why did you not read the critical point. "those whom God has allowed to understand". If i was elitist i would have claimed i understood due to some special ability derived from my own intellectual powers.

But those who don't feel like they understand, or who feel that God is choosy -- saying to them "those whom God has allowed to understand" automatically makes you an elitist in *their* eyes. I would know. They tend to infer that you are thereby claiming to understand due to some special ability derived from your own intellectual powers.

The reasons why people argue about religion, and esp. the way they argue often has little to do with religion directly.

Maybe you can remember a year back -- I would have screamed at you for considering yourself superior if you'd say "those whom God has allowed to understand".
Now, I don't know myself how to approach this issue without sounding presumptuous to some.

A non-believer asks a question. One answers it, and the non-believer feels intimidated, made inferior -- the communication collapses. I am trying to find a way to discuss these questions but in a manner to avoid this collapse, but also to avoid connivance.

 

[mis-t-highs]

TO SAY THAT GOD IS ALL POWERFUL, AS YOU HAVE, DOES NOT PRESENT A REASON FOR THE CREATURE HAVING NO POTENTIAL TO DETERMINE ITS FUTURE.

do you people ever listen to yourselves, for a omnipresent god to know the inevitable outcome.
then it knows before you make a choice what the outcome will be, thus making your life predetermined.
Ie if your god said go to new york, and take any route you like, and then you find all the routes bar one,(as the outcome is predetermined) are blocked where is the choice.
it negates free will.
is this more helpful.

 

[Adstar]

Maybe you can remember a year back -- I would have screamed at you for considering yourself superior if you'd say "those whom God has allowed to understand".
Now, I don't know myself how to approach this issue without sounding presumptuous to some.

A non-believer asks a question. One answers it, and the non-believer feels intimidated, made inferior -- the communication collapses. I am trying to find a way to discuss these questions but in a manner to avoid this collapse, but also to avoid connivance.

I have thought about that often water. Finding a way to discuss my Faith in a way that will avoid offence so as to stop the discussion collapsing. If you find a way please let me know.

One thing i have found. If someone hates the concept of God and hates those who believe in that concept then no matter what tack you take they will interpret you in a derogatory manner. If you try the simple approach they will see you as a brain dead sheep and laugh at you. If you try to be detailed they will switch their view of you to a arrogant puffed up pharisee. If you try the blunt approach they will see you as a mean bible bashing fanatic. The point is water no matter what tack one takes those who hate the love of the truth will always find a negative caricature in there head to paint on to you, you change tack they change caricature.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[ellion]

then it knows before you make a choice what the outcome will be, thus making your life predetermined.

no this doesnt help, how does seeing the the outcome of a choice make your life predetermined?

 

[water]

mis-t-highs,


The demand you are setting for a being to have free will is eventually brought down to this:

"Free will exists if under necessary conditions C phenomenon P can either happen or not."

This is a nonsensical demand. It implies that free will would exist if the universe would not function by laws.


Look to page 2, Ellion an I have elaborated on this view.

 

[audible]

mis-t-highs,


The demand you are setting for a being to have free will is eventually brought down to this:

"Free will exists if under necessary conditions C phenomenon P can either happen or not."

This is a nonsensical demand. It implies that free will would exist if the universe would not function by laws.


Look to page 2, Ellion an I have elaborated on this view.

am I misreading you rosa, reading page 2 it seems to me your making mistys case for her, I happen to agree with her, so am I right in my thinking.

 

[Cris]

Ellion,

you are saying that because god sees the outcome of our choices we dont have the ability to choose.
care to elaborate?

If something is known before it occurs then there can be no free choice, the event will have been predetermined. What you think is a free choice is really an illusion, the actions are simple pre-programmed.

For example if I write a computer program I will know every decision point in that code. If I then control the input data then I can predict exactly which choices the program will make with absolute certainty. The output will have been predetermined because I designed everything.

Similarly with an omniscient creator.

 

[Cris]

ellion,

how does seeing the outcome of a choice make your life predetermined?

Because the choice wasn’t yours – something or someone else had made the choice for you before you reached that point. Otherwise how could it have been known before you had made the choice?

 

[water]

am I misreading you rosa, reading page 2 it seems to me your making mistys case for her, I happen to agree with her, so am I right in my thinking.

Tell me, do you agree with this statement:

"We would have free will if the universe would not function by laws."


And I'm not making Misty's case, I'm trying to point out that such a demand for free will (as given above) is nonsensical.

 

[water]

Cris,


Do you believe that if there is no omnimax god, then we have free will?
What is your definition of free will?

 

[ellion]

I write a computer program I will know every decision point in that code. If I then control the input data then I can predict exactly which choices the program will make with absolute certainty. The output will have been predetermined because I designed everything.

this doesnt seem to be an example of free will or omniscience.
its more an example of control and prediction within a set of pre-defined variables.

Similarly with an omniscient creator

it would only be similar to an omniscient creator if the omniscient creator was not omniscient but was predicting events based on his control of physical laws and by manipulating humans.

Because the choice wasn’t yours – something or someone else had made the choice for you before you reached that point. Otherwise how could it have been known before you had made the choice?

you are saying here

1 the choice wasnt yours

why?

2 something or someone else made the choice for you

why?

3 how could it have been otherwise?

i hope you can see what a an empty statement you are making.

 

[Cris]

water,

Do you believe that if there is no omnimax god, then we have free will?
What is your definition of free will?

Not necessarily since the philosophy of determinism is independent of theism.

As for free will – ability to choose without any external involuntary coercion or influence.

 

[everneo]

If something is known before it occurs then there can be no free choice, the event will have been predetermined. What you think is a free choice is really an illusion, the actions are simple pre-programmed.

As for free will - ability to choose without any external involuntary coercion or influence.

Cris,

As per the second quote (yours) if i have the ability to sleep tonight at everest without any current restriction & i decide in the evening to sleep at everest & if the God knows this in the morning/evening itself, does that mean i actually do not have freewill ?! How does this prior knowledge play an external involuntary coercion or influence on my ability and will in this case ?

 

[Cris]

Ellion,

this doesnt seem to be an example of free will or omniscience.
its more an example of control and prediction within a set of pre-defined variables.

Which is exactly what you have when you define a universe that was designed by a creator that is omniscient.

it would only be similar to an omniscient creator if the omniscient creator was not omniscient but was predicting events based on his control of physical laws and by manipulating humans.

But when a creator knows everything then nothing can occur without his knowing in advance. What then is the difference between his ability to predict and his knowledge that the events are a known certainty? But if he created these physical laws and with omniscient he does control them. And the whole point here is that he is manipulating humans for his own aims and we have no choice in the matter – i.e. free will doesn’t exist if there is an omniscient creator. The two states are mutually exclusive.

you are saying here

1 the choice wasnt yours

why?

2 something or someone else made the choice for you

why?

3 how could it have been otherwise?

i hope you can see what a an empty statement you are making.

I don’t see your problem. If your choice is known before you’ve chosen then the choice had already been made and it wasn’t by you.

 

[Cris]

Everneo,

How does this prior knowledge play an external involuntary coercion or influence on my ability and will in this case?

If knowledge of your perceived decision exists before you have decided then your decision was pre-determined, i.e. it wasn’t your decision, you would be merely pre-programmed to act as pre-determined.

How is this possible? I don’t think it is, omniscience appears to be nonsense.