Free Will?

[everneo]

here are a few conundrums from R V Finley.

1 God has an unchangeable plan for everything past, present & future.
2 Everything that occurs past, present and future will be part of God's unchanging plan.
3 Thoughts and actions occur and are part of God's unchanging plan.
4 Thoughts and actions cannot be anything other than what God has planned.
5 Free-will doesn't exist.

1 God knows infallibly what will occur in the Universe before it occurs.
2 God can’t change the future because he knows everything absolutely.
3 God has no Free-will.

1 The Christian God is a personal being and is omniscient.
2 Personal beings have free will.(according to most Christians)
3 To have freewill, a personal being must be able to make a choice.
4 A being who knows everything can have no "state of uncertainty". It knows its choices in advance.
5 God has no potential to avoid its choices, and therefore has no free will.
6 Since a being that lacks free will is not a personal being, a personal being who knows everything cannot exist.
7 Therefore, the Christian God does not exist.

1 Prayer is sometimes used to ask God to change a situation in one's life or anothers.
2 God has a divine plan that cannot be changed.
3 Prayer cannot be used to change any situation.

1 If God exists, then he is omniscient.
2 If God exists, then he is free.
3 An omniscient being must know exactly what actions he will and will not do in the future.
4 If one knows that he will do an action, then it is impossible for him not to do it, and if one knows that he will not do an action, then it is impossible for him to do it.
5 Thus, whatever an omniscient being does, he must do, and whatever he does not do, he cannot do (from 3 and 4).
6 To be free requires having options open, which means having the ability to act contrary to the way one actually acts.
7 So, if one is free, then he does not have to do what he actually does, and he is able to do things that he does not actually do (from 6).
8 Hence, it is impossible for an omniscient being to be free (from 5 and 7).
9 Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 8)

so you can see if your a believer, you'll find theres no free will for you or god, and you waste you time praying, as nothing will change.
incidently god does'nt exist, as you can see.

Please apply my previous post above to test these conundrums. Tell me what it gives otherwise.

 

[the preacher]

Please apply my previous post above to test these conundrums. Tell me what it gives otherwise.

If God is omnipotent, omnipresent and has his own free-will then omniscience, specifically the knowledge of future, has no relevance for him. That is, with his omnipotence and his own free-will, he will decide the future, not necessarily restrict himself to a predetermined future.

why did you ask this, could you not do it yourself, however I happy to help.
I think you'll find the third and the fifth cover you statement quite well.(see below)
the answers have not changed, the other three dont seem to apply to your statement.
one thing I noticed in you statement is god is omnipresent, if god is omnipresent, then it stands to reason he must be omniscient, example: If God exists, he is omnipresent (occupying all space), Since God occupies all space, past, present, and future, there is nothing that is NOT God, or that god does not know.


1 The Christian God is a personal being and is omniscient.
2 Personal beings have free will.(according to most Christians)
3 To have freewill, a personal being must be able to make a choice.
4 A being who knows everything can have no "state of uncertainty". It knows its choices in advance.
5 God has no potential to avoid its choices, and therefore has no free will.
6 Since a being that lacks free will is not a personal being, a personal being who knows everything cannot exist.
7 Therefore, the Christian God does not exist.


1 If God exists, then he is omniscient.
2 If God exists, then he is free.
3 An omniscient being must know exactly what actions he will and will not do in the future.
4 If one knows that he will do an action, then it is impossible for him not to do it, and if one knows that he will not do an action, then it is impossible for him to do it.
5 Thus, whatever an omniscient being does, he must do, and whatever he does not do, he cannot do (from 3 and 4).
6 To be free requires having options open, which means having the ability to act contrary to the way one actually acts.
7 So, if one is free, then he does not have to do what he actually does, and he is able to do things that he does not actually do (from 6).
8 Hence, it is impossible for an omniscient being to be free (from 5 and 7).
9 Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 8)

 

[water]

That's because what you suppose is logically impossible.
Such a God can not give you free-will to choose between A and B when your God also knows that you will choose A.
In such an instance there is no possibility that you can choose B.
If you do - your God is wrong and thus is not omniscient.

Omniscience is mutually exclusive from such an idea of free-will.
So one idea must be reviewed.

Either your God is not omniscient... OR... you do not have free-will as you believe.


Or am I missing something / have a wrong understanding of your idea of free-will or omniscience?

The problem I see with this argument is that it supposes that to have free will means that things can happen in some completely different way than they do. That free will would exist if under necessary circumstances C the phenomenon P could either take place or not. To have free will would mean to be able to not follow the rules of this universe.
While I see this as a possible definition of free will, I think the demand for it (that under necessary circumstances C the phenomenon P could either take place or not) is nonsensical.


* * *

free= without restriction.
will= determine and control self or an event.

an awareness of the outcome of another persons actions does not affect there decisions.

Tell me if I understand you correctly:

God knows what you will do, but this does not affect the way you make your decisions.

God is separate from your decision-making process, He does not interfere with it.
(This is in accordance with the axiom that God gave you free will.)

free= without restriction.

Does this refer to that you are not forced or bound to do something?
How do you respond to "... and whom He wills, He hardens"?

will= determine and control self or an event.

Again, one easily falls into the trap of absolutism (like Sarkus' argument). How are you to determine and control that the bullet you shot at the target will hit the target? If it doesn't, does this mean that you had no free will, or not enough? What if the gun jams? ...

The "determine and control" part has a great deal to do with our knowledge of the way things work. The more we know about them, the more we know how to apply our determination and control effectively -- and thus the sense of us having free will strengthens.

So that if the bullet you shot doesn't hit the target, this doesn't mean you had no free will -- that you had no determination and control, it means only that your determination and control were limited due to your limited knowledge.

Namely, the problem with free will is that there are only two options: one either has it, or doesn't have it.

To say "limited free will" is a logical quagmire, resulting from the perspective of a specific understanding of free will (that under necessary circumstances C the phenomenon P could either take place or not), which is untenable.

If we say we don't have free will, we deny the obvious experience of being able to do things by our own will. As empiricists, we can't afford such denial.

The most feasible position is to say we have free will, but we also have limited knowledge and ability.
Having limited knowledge and ability does not negate our free will, it only negates omniscience and omnipotence.

however there is no possibility of choosing B the reason for there being no possibility is not because he has prevented you from choosing by restricting your choices.

the reason there is no possibility of choosing B is because A has already been chosen.

if you have chosen A in the future you cannot possibly choose B in the future.

Yes, the distinguishing between an *option* and a *choice*.
A and B are options, but deciding for one makes that one a choice.


* * *

I did not expect that the explanation i gave would be understood. But the question was asked and those whom God has allowed to understand will.

This is elitistic of you. It provokes a defensive reaction in other people, esp. those who want to understand but feel that they can't understand it. As if you are a member of a special club where not everyone has entrance to.

It is by God's grace that we understand things. But to understand this grace, and not feel intimidated by our own inability to earn it, one must first have faith in God.

* * *

Adstar, by all means please explain how it IS possible. We have given our logical reasoning for it not being possible, yet you claim it is.
Please explain.
All you have so far done is merely state that it is possible - with no explanation.

How could I explain this to you ...

In logic, truth is a matter of the structure of the argument, if the conclusion follows from the premises.

Strictly logically, even the conclusion in this argument is true -- in the sense that it follows:

P1: All dogs have two stomachs.
P2: I have a dog.
-----------------
C: My dog has two stomachs.

But the premises are not true!

The logic itself of an argument -- of its structure -- is not the problem, we know which are valid.
The problem are the premises -- whether we accept them as valid.

And whether we accept them as valid depends on our beliefs, our knowledge. This, however, is not self-evident, but is a matter of exploration and acceptance.

So no matter what a theist tells you, unless you yourself know the premises to be true, unless you accept them to be true, the theist's arguments will keep on being illogical to you.

But then again, you seem to believe that your God has only allowed certain people to understand - so your God must have created me without the ability to understand?
Which means your God does not create all men equally!
Hmmm. Such a nice deity you believe in.

All that God can give us when we are born (conceived), without interefering with the free will of other people (primarily our parents) and without interfering with the circumstances -- all that God can give us is our bare life and free will.

It is not that God would be choosy and whimsical and let only certain people understand; it is misleading to believe so.

Everyone has the potential to understand: but whether this potential will be lived out, depends on a lot of factors that God does not interfere with, unless asked.

 

[everneo]

the preacher :

conundrum 1 :

1 God has an unchangeable plan for everything past, present & future.
2 Everything that occurs past, present and future will be part of God's unchanging plan.
3 Thoughts and actions occur and are part of God's unchanging plan.
4 Thoughts and actions cannot be anything other than what God has planned.
5 Free-will doesn't exist.

Simply, (1) says everything is predetermined by way of assuming an 'unchangeable plan' of God. An assumption, thats all. 2,3,4 are derived
from this assumption, hence the conclusion is not definitive.


--------------------

conundrum 2 :

1 God knows infallibly what will occur in the Universe before it occurs.

Knowledge of a future event is one thing, Ability of making the event to actually happen (or not to happen) is another thing. Knowledge of a future event has any validity only if the event happens actually. For example, Omnipotence & freewill of God can make any future knowledge valid/invalid. This is a rare case of knowledge trailing the might & freewill. Please read the rest of this post.


2 God can’t change the future because he knows everything absolutely.

With omnipotence & freewill, future is an open end for God. No need for predetermining the future that he cannot change. If God prefers to have 'absolute knowledge' of future then in fact he excercised his freewill to predetermine the future. Prior knowledge has not as much relevance for an omnipotent God as his freewill.

3 God has no Free-will.

Unless he wills to restrict his free-will.


--------------------

conundrum 3 :

1 The Christian God is a personal being and is omniscient.
2 Personal beings have free will.(according to most Christians)
3 To have freewill, a personal being must be able to make a choice.
4 A being who knows everything can have no "state of uncertainty". It knows its choices in advance.
5 God has no potential to avoid its choices, and therefore has no free will.
6 Since a being that lacks free will is not a personal being, a personal being who knows everything cannot exist.
7 Therefore, the Christian God does not exist.

Not sure about how the christian God is described exactly, so no comment. Generally there is no need for God to trade off his own freewill for predeterminism.

---------

conundrum 4 :

1 Prayer is sometimes used to ask God to change a situation in one's life or anothers.
2 God has a divine plan that cannot be changed.
3 Prayer cannot be used to change any situation.

(2) looks like a gnostic statement. Why should God have a divine plan that cannot be changed ?

-----------------------

conundrum 5 :

1 If God exists, then he is omniscient.
2 If God exists, then he is free.
3 An omniscient being must know exactly what actions he will and will not do in the future.
4 If one knows that he will do an action, then it is impossible for him not to do it, and if one knows that he will not do an action, then it is impossible for him to do it.
5 Thus, whatever an omniscient being does, he must do, and whatever he does not do, he cannot do (from 3 and 4).
6 To be free requires having options open, which means having the ability to act contrary to the way one actually acts.
7 So, if one is free, then he does not have to do what he actually does, and he is able to do things that he does not actually do (from 6).
8 Hence, it is impossible for an omniscient being to be free (from 5 and 7).
9 Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 8)


It seems, omniscience (specfically a temporal aspect of it - the knowledge of future) is another anthropic construct completely discarding the more powerful aspects of God viz. omnipresence, omnipotence and his free-will. These three attributes make 'knowledge of future' insignificant; especially when God is able to dynamically DECIDE/enforce the future with his might and will at anytime, anywhere.

 

[ellion]

God knows what you will do, but this does not affect the way you make your decisions.

that would be correct if god were omniscient and humans had free will. so yes.

God is separate from your decision-making process, He does not interfere with it.
(This is in accordance with the axiom that God gave you free will.)

not necessarily. having free will does not mean we are immune to the will of others, including and especially those with greater will than ours. but this does not mean we have no free will.

So that if the bullet you shot doesn't hit the target, this doesn't mean you had no free will -- that you had no determination and control, it means only that your determination and control were limited due to your limited knowledge

this is what i mean. i have replied to you regareding this in another thread. as humans our free will is very limited but we do have an amount, and we have the potential and ability to apply and develop it. as christ said even greater than his abilty, is our potential.

Does this refer to that you are not forced or bound to do something?
How do you respond to "... and whom He wills, He hardens"

i think the answer to these comments is above but
if you were forced or bound to do something you would not be free.
"those whom i love i rebuke and chasten"

Namely, the problem with free will is that there are only two options: one either has it, or doesn't have it.

To say "limited free will" is a logical quagmire, resulting from the perspective of a specific understanding of free will (that under necessary circumstances C the phenomenon P could either take place or not), which is untenable.

is your problem that you see having free will as having absolute control over all situations. that not having absolute control over all situations would for you mean to not have free will.

The most feasible position is to say we have free will, but we also have limited knowledge and ability.
Having limited knowledge and ability does not negate our free will, it only negates omniscience and omnipotence.

this is my position also.

 

[mis-t-highs]

the preacher :

conundrum 1 :

1 God has an unchangeable plan for everything past, present & future.
2 Everything that occurs past, present and future will be part of God's unchanging plan.
3 Thoughts and actions occur and are part of God's unchanging plan.
4 Thoughts and actions cannot be anything other than what God has planned.
5 Free-will doesn't exist.

Simply, (1) says everything is predetermined by way of assuming an 'unchangeable plan' of God. An assumption, thats all. 2,3,4 are derived
from this assumption, hence the conclusion is not definitive.

how so,if god is omnipresent then he's past present future , meaning he there after the act (if he's there after the act it must of already happened) before the act and at the act, therefore he must know what the future is, as he there now, and the past as he's there also, so the future must be predetermined.
to be any other way would mean, god is not omnipresent, omniscient, and thus not omnipotent, so not be god.

conundrum 2 :

1 God knows infallibly what will occur in the Universe before it occurs.

Knowledge of a future event is one thing, Ability of making the event to actually happen (or not to happen) is another thing. Knowledge of a future event has any validity only if the event happens actually. For example, Omnipotence & freewill of God can make any future knowledge valid/invalid. This is a rare case of knowledge trailing the might & freewill. Please read the rest of this post.

again same answer, how so,if god is omnipresent then he's past present future , meaning he there after the act (if he's there after the act it must of already happened) before the act and at the act, therefore he must know what the future is, as he there now, and the past as he's there also, so the future must be predetermined.
to be any other way would mean, god is not omnipresent, omniscient, and thus not omnipotent, so not be god.

2 God can’t change the future because he knows everything absolutely.

With omnipotence & freewill, future is an open end for God. No need for predetermining the future that he cannot change. If God prefers to have 'absolute knowledge' of future then in fact he excercised his freewill to predetermine the future. Prior knowledge has not as much relevance for an omnipotent God as his freewill.

and yet again, same answer, how so,if god is omnipresent then he's past present future , meaning he there after the act (if he's there after the act it must of already happened) before the act and at the act, therefore he must know what the future is, as he there now, and the past as he's there also, so the future must be predetermined.
to be any other way would mean, god is not omnipresent, omniscient, and thus not omnipotent, so not be god.

3 God has no Free-will.

Unless he wills to restrict his free-will.

what lunacy is this.

---------

conundrum 4 :

1 Prayer is sometimes used to ask God to change a situation in one's life or anothers.
2 God has a divine plan that cannot be changed.
3 Prayer cannot be used to change any situation.

(2) looks like a gnostic statement. Why should God have a divine plan that cannot be changed ?

and once more for luck, how so,if god is omnipresent then he's past present future , meaning he there after the act (if he's there after the act it must of already happened) before the act and at the act, therefore he must know what the future is, as he there now, and the past as he's there also, so the future must be predetermined.
to be any other way would mean, god is not omnipresent, omniscient, and thus not omnipotent, so not be god.

conundrum 5 :

1 If God exists, then he is omniscient.
2 If God exists, then he is free.
3 An omniscient being must know exactly what actions he will and will not do in the future.
4 If one knows that he will do an action, then it is impossible for him not to do it, and if one knows that he will not do an action, then it is impossible for him to do it.
5 Thus, whatever an omniscient being does, he must do, and whatever he does not do, he cannot do (from 3 and 4).
6 To be free requires having options open, which means having the ability to act contrary to the way one actually acts.
7 So, if one is free, then he does not have to do what he actually does, and he is able to do things that he does not actually do (from 6).
8 Hence, it is impossible for an omniscient being to be free (from 5 and 7).
9 Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist (from 1, 2, and 8)


It seems, omniscience (specfically a temporal aspect of it - the knowledge of future) is another anthropic construct completely discarding the more powerful aspects of God viz. omnipresence, omnipotence and his free-will. These three attributes make 'knowledge of future' insignificant; especially when God is able to dynamically DECIDE/enforce the future with his might and will at anytime, anywhere.

how so.
however, I have to agree with you here, you have disregarded the more powerful aspects of god.

 

[ellion]

pre-determination is creating a specific future.

seeing into the future does not create the future.

being in the future does not create the future.

having all potential in the future does not create the future.

the will of the creature in the present creates the future.

 

[everneo]

and once more for luck, how so,if god is omnipresent then he's past present future , meaning he there after the act (if he's there after the act it must of already happened) before the act and at the act, therefore he must know what the future is, as he there now, and the past as he's there also, so the future must be predetermined.
to be any other way would mean, god is not omnipresent, omniscient, and thus not omnipotent, so not be god.

omnipresent :

adjective: present in all places at all times

(Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary)




omnipresent :

Present everywhere simultaneously.

adj : being present everywhere at once

(www.dictionary.com)


The general meanings give no indication that omnipresence is being present in past,present & future at once.

If you want to include 'being present in past,present & future at once' in omniscience, for argument sake, you negate your point that freewill and omniscience cannot coexist. Whatever done out of freewill, God is already there in the 'present & future' to know any consequences.

3 God has no Free-will.

Unless he wills to restrict his free-will.

what lunacy is this.

What is your meaning of lunacy?

 

[mis-t-highs]

pre-determination is creating a specific future.

seeing into the future does not create the future.

being in the future does not create the future.

having all potential in the future does not create the future.

the will of the creature in the present creates the future.

how so.

omnipresent :

adjective: present in all places at all times

(Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary)




omnipresent :

Present everywhere simultaneously.

adj : being present everywhere at once

(www.dictionary.com)

The general meanings give no indication that omnipresence is being present in past,present & future at once

I've highlighted it for you. god is without limits,an infinite being, but you say he's limited.
so he can only be here in the present, then he's not omnipresent(without limits, not infinite).

If you want to include 'being present in past,present & future at once' in omniscience, for argument sake, you negate your point that freewill and omniscience cannot coexist.

how so

Whatever done out of freewill, God is already there in the 'present & future' to know any consequences.

if he's already there, then it is already done.
free will does not come into it. it's predetermined.

What is your meaning of lunacy?

it would be total lunacy to say that god would will himself to be a lesser god, then he would not be god.
he would not be omnipotent(all powerfull).

 

[ellion]

how so

are you asking how does the will of the creature in the present create the future?

 

[mis-t-highs]

are you asking how does the will of the creature in the present create the future?

no, see below

pre-determination is creating a specific future.

correct

seeing into the future does not create the future.

agreed, however you know the outcome of all past actions

being in the future does not create the future.

agreed, you can only observe, as you already have the outcome of all past actions.

having all potential in the future does not create the future.

agreed, because the outcome has already been estabished.

the will of the creature in the present creates the future.

only if it's not preordained by god, and as god is omnipresent, without limits,an infinite being, eternal, omniscient, all knowing.
this definitely is'nt the case.

 

[ellion]

i like the word 'is'

 

[everneo]

I've highlighted it for you. god is without limits,an infinite being, but you say he's limited.
so he can only be here in the present, then he's not omnipresent(without limits, not infinite).

What you highlighted do not imply what you claim (omnipresence is being present in past,present & future at once.)

Have read my answer? Can you see the difference?

It should be clear before proceeding further to avoid the stupid 'how so's.

 

[ellion]

[mis-t-highs]
'is' was much better, couldnt you reconsider.

 

[mis-t-highs]

What you highlighted do not imply what you claim (omnipresence is being present in past,present & future at once.)

Have read my answer? Can you see the difference?

It should be clear before proceeding further to avoid the stupid 'how so's.

oh but they do to every other christian in the world.
if you are a christian are you the only one that believes god to be limited, as all other christian believe that god is without limits,an infinite being, eternal.

so you believe god to be only here in the present, limited.



encarta
om·ni·pres·ent
always present everywhere: continuously and simultaneously present throughout the whole of creation

wordsmyth
existing in all places at any given time.

american heritage
Present everywhere simultaneously.

 

[everneo]

oh but they do to every other christian in the world.
if you are a christian are you the only one that believes god to be limited, as all other christian believe that god is without limits,an infinite being, eternal.

so you believe god to be only here in the present, limited.

I don't think God would be limited if he is not able to be present in the brain of an invisible green elephant either.

encarta
om·ni·pres·ent
always present everywhere: continuously and simultaneously present throughout the whole of creation

wordsmyth
existing in all places at any given time.

american heritage
Present everywhere simultaneously.

Still i don't find from above, any indication that omnipresent means being present in past,present & future at once as you claimed as omnipresence. Treating time like any other spacial dimensions would lead you to, hmmm... lunacy.

 

[ellion]

only if it's not preordained by god, and as god is omnipresent, without limits,an infinite being, eternal, omniscient, all knowing.
this definitely is'nt the case.

YOU ARE SAYING HERE THAT THE FUTURE IS NOT CREATED BY THE WILL OF THE CREATURE IN THE PRESENT, BECAUSE GOD IS OMNIPRESENT, WITHOUT LIMITS, AN INFINITE BEING, ETERNAL OMNISCIENT, ALL KNOWING. UNLESS IT IS PREORDAINED.

I AM WONDERING HOW YOU SEE GODS WILL AS THE CAUSE OF LOSS OF WILL OF THE CREATURE IN THE PRESENT.

TO SAY THAT GOD IS ALL POWERFUL, AS YOU HAVE, DOES NOT PRESENT A REASON FOR THE CREATURE HAVING NO POTENTIAL TO DETERMINE ITS FUTURE.

 

[Adstar]

Adstar, by all means please explain how it IS possible. We have given our logical reasoning for it not being possible, yet you claim it is.
Please explain.
All you have so far done is merely state that it is possible - with no explanation.

But then again, you seem to believe that your God has only allowed certain people to understand - so your God must have created me without the ability to understand?
Which means your God does not create all men equally!
Hmmm. Such a nice deity you believe in.

Where did i say that i was created with the ability to understand? And where did i say that you where created without the ability to understand. What i said was that God gave me the ability to understand, big difference.

So i am not created better than others and never claimed to be. it is you that read that into my post.

So the message i gave you could not read. But the message i did not give you, that you conceived.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Adstar]

Originally Posted by Adstar

I did not expect that the explanation i gave would be understood. But the question was asked and those whom God has allowed to understand will.

Originally Posted by water
This is elitistic of you. It provokes a defensive reaction in other people, esp. those who want to understand but feel that they can't understand it. As if you are a member of a special club where not everyone has entrance to.

You impute an attitude to me of elitist? Why did you not read the critical point. "those whom God has allowed to understand". If i was elitist i would have claimed i understood due to some special ability derived from my own intellectual powers.

It is by God's grace that we understand things. But to understand this grace, and not feel intimidated by our own inability to earn it, one must first have faith in God.

True and it is only a small club and it is a special club as well. But it is not an elitist club. It’s open to everyone but few want to join it.

All Praise The Ancient of Days

 

[tatyanna]

What if you were to compare God as the creater of a computer program. The user will have choices (and thus "free will") and the resulting action or path the computer program takes will be directly dependant on that choice. God giving us "free will" doesn't meant that He doesn't know what the outcome will be it is that there are so many different variables and He will know where each and everyone of them will "lead" because he has set up the consequences or "path" of each choice. So, although God has given us "free will" it obviously had to be limited to the number of variables we as humans (at peak performance) can use/choose/understand. On the other hand, the number of variables God can use/choose/understand is unlimited. Since we are saying he is not "bound to time" then his understanding/knowledge of what will happen can occur in "realtime" as our "choices" are made.

Please, no 'God doesn't exist' or 'religion needs no proof' comments. Now, if God is omniscient and knows what will happen at any time any where as He is also timeless (I understand it that He is not just eternal, but is not bound to time and is aware of all that will happen in the future as well as what is happening now), how could He create humans with free will? He knows everything that all people, angels, creatures, etc will do. By knowing what they will do, and creating them in one distinct way so that He knows they'll do it, there is no free will. He has created us to operate in one way, as was intended at the moment of our creation, and if He knows that then there can't be any variation. I can't figure out where free will comes in, because if we have it then there has to be variation and therefore a lack of omniscience. I'd appreciate enlightenment on this, thanks.