Female Genital Mutilation: An Islamic Practice

[S.A.M.]

Originally Posted by S.A.M.
What, you accompany your girlfriend for her PAP tests? Do breast exams for cancer? Keep a check on her menstrual cycle regularity and PMS? Make sure she is stocked in tampons, vaginal douche and panty liners?

my husband comes to the Dr's with me when i have a smear test (pap test) done!! i find it amazing that some women wont, if i cant sure that with my husband who can i share it with?

and yes he makes sure that my daughter has enough tampons, and panty liners, what is wrong with that?

and he also knows when her period is due aswell, has he did mine before my hysterectomy!

Good for you.

 

[Grantywanty]

Male muslims and Imams are very concerned about Muslim girls and women wearing veils. This practice (which, by the way, is not demanded by the Koran which simply says women should dress appropriately) is handled by women and mothers (rather than fathers) train and are in charge of daughters on a practical basis in relation to this practice.

Nevertheless any attempt the challenge this practice brings out Imams and male Muslims who protest, write letters and articles, etc.

DESPITE THE FACT THAT WOMEN (MOTHERS) are the primary trainers and enforcers IN THE HOUSEHOLD.

Sam's idea that FGM is really a woman thing (and should be compared to medical practices) is ludicrous. The force behind it is men, just as it is in the East with footbinding and as it is with veils. Any woman breaking with FGM will find herself at odds with men (perhaps other women, also, but every cultures has members of the oppressed who aid the oppressor).

 

[S.A.M.]

I think there is a lot of difference between covering your face (which everyone can see) and chopping off genitals (which are not a topic of conversation over tea among the men and women). And yes, it is entirely a woman thing. The dynamics of relationship in the East are common to all the East, the women being both the sustainers of tradition as well as the harbingers of change. Most FGM are conducted by mothers and close female relatives, with the males in the family having little or no knowledge. Which is why educating the men changes nothing, but educating the women leads to dramatic social changes.

 

[Grantywanty]

Of course, they are imams, they make noise when its about the Prophet because that is religion, I doubt that outside the affected areas, they even know about FGM, its a "female" matter, not something they would concern themselves with. Thats like saying priests should comment on breast implants causing cancer.

If a large % of Catholic mothers FORCED their daughters to get breast implants I AM 100% certain priest would talk about it. If the practice was specifically forbidden in the Bible (as Diamond Heart claims it is) of course they would talk about it.

Imams and other males make a lot of noise about veils - which are not mandatory according to the Koran - even though this is a woman thing. Veils are not a religious issue, yet they make noise about this issue and hit the streets.

yet they are silent about FGM.

 

[S.A.M.]

You're dealing in hypotheticals. In reality, the catholic priests covered up any incident of molestation that occured under them, until it was acceptable for men to divulge details of abuse. Do you believe that not one child ever told his parents?

 

[Baron Max]

You're dealing in hypotheticals.

And ye're dealing in outside interference ......which you've stated over and over again that you're staunchly and strongly against. Yet here, with pussy-cutting, you're advocating outside interference.

Baron Max

 

[S.A.M.]

And ye're dealing in outside interference ......which you've stated over and over again that you're staunchly and strongly against. Yet here, with pussy-cutting, you're advocating outside interference.

Baron Max

I'm the one against the foreign doctors Baron.

 

[Baron Max]

I'm the one against the foreign doctors Baron.

Outside influence, Sam, not necessarily doctors ...it could be outside pamplets distributed to the people or news radio or any such forms of "outside influence".

The pussy cutting went on for a gazillion years and everyone was happy with it ....then some outsider came and told them it was wrong! That, Sam, is outside influence!! And you know it as well as me.

Baron Max

 

[Grantywanty]

You're dealing in hypotheticals. In reality, the catholic priests covered up any incident of molestation that occured under them, until it was acceptable for men to divulge details of abuse. Do you believe that not one child ever told his parents?

Precisely, because the men were being bad.
Women being bad are always a topic of religious men.

If male Imams and muslims gave a shit about their daughters having healty sexual lives and not undergoing painful unneccessary operations there would be a tornado of response.

They do not give a shit.

They would not hesitate for a second to point out bad things women are doing to women or to themselves.

To challenge male power, that is something they avoid doing.

 

[S.A.M.]

Precisely, because the men were being bad.
Women being bad are always a topic of religious men.

If male Imams and muslims gave a shit about their daughters having healty sexual lives and not undergoing painful unneccessary operations there would be a tornado of response.

They do not give a shit.

They would not hesitate for a second to point out bad things women are doing to women or to themselves.

To challenge male power, that is something they avoid doing.

Umm you're saying that the priests discriminate between men and women being bad?

And the mullahs tolerate it because it is the women who are bad?

 

[Grantywanty]

Umm you're saying that the priests discriminate between men and women being bad?

And the mullahs tolerate it because it is the women who are bad?

Nope. They tolerate it because they don't give a shit about women having sexual pleasure, because they know that to fight it would cause tensions between Muslim men and would highlight for the world a practice they would rather not have highlighted.

 

[Grantywanty]

S:A:M

Diamond Heart says that FGM is forbidden by the Koran. You must think he is wrong since something forbidden by the Koran would be a religious matter, and given the pain and mutilation involved would seem to be a fairly important one.

Perhaps you should tell Diamond Heart that he is wrong about the KOran. It works well as a frustrating tag team to have the two of you contradict eachother CONSISTANTLY, but it makes you look foolish. The student of Islamic theology making it clear that it is a religious matter and whatever you are contradicting him.

 

[Grantywanty]

As stated, the vast majority of Islamic religious, even in Egypt (check previous posts, statement: Al Azhar University 2005), oppose this practice as against the teachings of Islam.
.

DiamondHearts

S:A:M: believes that FGM is not a religiuos issue and that is why he think the Imams have been silent about it. You on the other hand, from you Islamic studies, say that IT IS FORBIDDEN IN THE KORAN, which, I would think would make it a religiuos issue and something that Imams could and should comment on. You seem to agree.

I find it irritating to have the two primary defenders of Islam here contradicting each other over and over. It should be embarrassing for at least one of you. I hope the two of you will have a dialogue and come up with a consistant view.

S.A.M feels FGM is a women's issue and it would be wrong or odd for an Islamic religious leader to comment on it.
I find his position very strange. Do you?

 

[Grantywanty]

And by the way, men refuse, often to marry women who have not had this procedure. Since being a wife is the only way for women to make a living in many of these countries - in other words to get food and shelter - it is very clear that men are the power brokers and the Mothers are trying to make their daughters marketable.

tHE ROOTS OF THIS ARE MALE.

And we have not even gotten to the primarily Muslim procedure of sewing up the girls vagina as proof of virginity.

 

[S.A.M.]

DiamondHearts

S:A:M: believes that FGM is not a religiuos issue and that is why he think the Imams have been silent about it. You on the other hand, from you Islamic studies, say that IT IS FORBIDDEN IN THE KORAN, which, I would think would make it a religiuos issue and something that Imams could and should comment on. You seem to agree.

I find it irritating to have the two primary defenders of Islam here contradicting each other over and over. It should be embarrassing for at least one of you. I hope the two of you will have a dialogue and come up with a consistant view.

S.A.M feels FGM is a women's issue and it would be wrong or odd for an Islamic religious leader to comment on it.
I find his position very strange. Do you?

CAN YOU SHOW ME A VERSE ON FGM IN QURAN?????

There, apparently you need color for comprehension.

 

[S.A.M.]

And by the way, men refuse, often to marry women who have not had this procedure. Since being a wife is the only way for women to make a living in many of these countries - in other words to get food and shelter - it is very clear that men are the power brokers and the Mothers are trying to make their daughters marketable.

tHE ROOTS OF THIS ARE MALE.

And we have not even gotten to the primarily Muslim procedure of sewing up the girls vagina as proof of virginity.

Do you think it would be the men who examine the women/ask them this question before marriage?

 

[S.A.M.]

Nope. They tolerate it because they don't give a shit about women having sexual pleasure, because they know that to fight it would cause tensions between Muslim men and would highlight for the world a practice they would rather not have highlighted.

So the imams are aware (even though all the women they know are sewn up) that FGM affects female sexuality? Where do they get this knowledge?

 

[DiamondHearts]

Granty, as both Sam and I have grown up in Islamic households and have knowledge of Muslim culture, I believe we have a right to comment on this.

Islam is not merely a religion but a way of life, therefore it has a rule for just about anything in life from eating to sleeping to praying and also government.

Muslim scholars are in consensus that this abhorrent practice is forbidden in Islam. I have quoted the dean of the faculty of Shariah in Al Azhar (2005), please consult my previous post.

It is education which is the problem, not Islam.

A religion which does not allow tatooing, or piercing (except the ears and nose for women), and which even prohibits men from wearing gold jewelry. Why would this religion then condone the mutilation of its beloved women?

 

[WildBlueYonder]

It is education which is the problem, not Islam.

A religion which does not allow tatooing, or piercing (except the ears and nose for women), and which even prohibits men from wearing gold jewelry. Why would this religion then condone the mutilation of its beloved women?

then why indeed?
could it be other forces unleashed by a mis-understanding of islam?
or expanded application of principles already found & approved in islam?

because islam does re-enforce a male-dominated, male-centered, patriarchal culture (or are you going to deny that too?),
not-withstanding our own precious S.A.M. (not a rare gem though, since explaining, promulgating islam is an approved outlet for muslim females)

so something within islam (or seemingly approved by) drives families to FGM

"why" would be the question?

 

[S.A.M.]

then why indeed?
could it be other forces unleashed by a mis-understanding of islam?
or expanded application of principles already found & approved in islam?

because islam does re-enforce a male-dominated, male-centered, patriarchal culture (or are you going to deny that too?),
not-withstanding our own precious S.A.M. (not a rare gem though, since explaining, promulgating islam is an approved outlet for muslim females)

so something within islam (or seemingly approved by) drives families to FGM

"why" would be the question?

drives females? all of them? lol. What a ninny.