Female Genital Mutilation: An Islamic Practice

[ashura]

Ah that is from the Prophets statements, not from the Quran.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Farewell_Sermon

Ah, there we go. Thanks for finding that, but I'm actually looking specifically for something from the Quran. After all, the word of God > the word of man, even if the man is the last and final prophet, no?

 

[S.A.M.]

Ah, there we go. Thanks for finding that, but I'm actually looking specifically for something from the Quran. After all, the word of God > the word of man, even if the man is the last and final prophet, no?

You quoted the Prophets statement, ya?

The Quran verses are linked in the rest of the statements in Diamond's link

 

[ashura]

You quoted the Prophets statement, ya?

The Quran verses are linked in the rest of the statements in Diamond's link

I did, ya. I thought that it had backing from the Quran, pardon my ignorance.

And yes, I'm aware of that. But like I said earlier, I'm looking for something that explicitly states gender equality. The closest I've found from that site was:

Equality before the Law:

Both genders are entitled to equality before the Law and courts of Law. Justice is genderless (Qur’an 5:38, 24:2 and 5:45). Women do possess an independent legal entity in financial and other matters.

However, as you'll see below, it still doesn't show what I'm looking for:

[Shakir 24:2] (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.

[Shakir 5:38] And (as for) the man who steals and the woman who steals, cut off their hands as a punishment for what they have earned, an exemplary punishment from Allah; and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

[Shakir 5:45] And We prescribed to them in it that life is for life, and eye for eye, and nose for nose, and ear for ear, and tooth for tooth, and (that there is) reprisal in wounds; but he who foregoes it, it shall be an expiation for him; and whoever did not judge by what Allah revealed, those are they that are the unjust.

 

[S.A.M.]

Well I can give it in short:

1. women have to agree to marriage or it is not valid
2. women can ask for divorce for any number of reasons (impotence, six months of physical separation, irreconciliable differences, ill treatment)
3. they are given maintenance after divorce, including for children
4. Mothers automatically get custody of children until they reach age of understanding when the children's wishes are taken under consideration
5. Women have complete control over their own property even after marriage; husbands are required to maintain their wives even if the wives have their own money; wives are not required to share their personal property with husbands
6. Women are not required to change their name or take their husbands name after marriage (this has legal implications for property ownership)
7. Women have right to work, vote, divorce, remarry and demand restitution in case of failure to receive proper maintenance.
8. Women have a share in paternal wealth

These are general rights of women based on Quran verses.

 

[ashura]

Well I can give it in short:

1. women have to agree to marriage or it is not valid
2. women can ask for divorce for any number of reasons (impotence, six months of physical separation, irreconciliable differences, ill treatment)
3. they are given maintenance after divorce, including for children
4. Mothers automatically get custody of children until they reach age of understanding when the children's wishes are taken under consideration
5. Women have complete control over their own property even after marriage; husbands are required to maintain their wives even if the wives have their own money; wives are not required to share their personal property with husbands
6. Women are not required to change their name or take their husbands name after marriage (this has legal implications for property ownership)
7. Women have right to work, vote, divorce, remarry and demand restitution in case of failure to receive proper maintenance.

These are general rights of women based on Quran verses.

Sorry to be picky, but still not exactly what I'm looking for.

But, I'll bite. Can you give me sura numbers to check out? It's silly to ask of you to get them all, so just one would be cool. Your choice which.

 

[S.A.M.]

Sorry to be picky, but still not exactly what I'm looking for.

But, I'll bite. Can you give me sura numbers to check out? It's silly to ask of you to get them all, so just one would be cool. Your choice which.

Ack you're a hard taskmistress!

The believing men and women, are associates and helpers of each other. They (collaborate) to promote all that is beneficial and discourage all that is evil; to establish prayers and give alms, and to obey Allah and his Messenger. Those are the people whom Allah would grant mercy. Indeed Allah is Mighty and Wise. (Al-Taubah 9:71)

If both spouses decide, by mutual consent and consultation, on weaning [their baby], there is no blame on either. If you want to have your babies breastfed by a foster mother you are not doing anything blame-worthy provided you pay to the fostermother what you had agreed to offer, in accordance with the established manner. Fear Allah and know that Allah is aware it what you are doing". (Al-Baqarah, 2:233)

"I shall not lose sight of the labor of any of you who labors in My way, be it man or woman; each of you is equal to the other (3:195)"

I tried to find verses which show how men and women should perceive each other.

 

[DiamondHearts]

This issue addressed has been resolved ten times already. I agree that this thread should be cesspooled. We can discuss gender equality in a new thread.

 

[S.A.M.]

Maybe the moderator could just close the thread?

 

[ashura]

Ack you're a hard taskmistress!

That's taskmaster.

If both spouses decide, by mutual consent and consultation, on weaning [their baby], there is no blame on either. If you want to have your babies breastfed by a foster mother you are not doing anything blame-worthy provided you pay to the fostermother what you had agreed to offer, in accordance with the established manner. Fear Allah and know that Allah is aware it what you are doing". (Al-Baqarah, 2:233)

Just finished reading a good chunk of that part of the sura. It seems directed towards men (repeated phrase of "and when you (have) divorce(d) women"). I was confused by some bits in particular:

[Shakir 2:228] And the divorced women should keep themselves in waiting for three courses; and it is not lawful for them that they should conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the last day; and their husbands have a better right to take them back in the meanwhile if they wish for reconciliation; and they have rights similar to those against them in a just manner, and the men are a degree above them, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

The commentary explained it as such: "But the men are a degree above women" refers to the natural differences which separate men from women. Allah is all-wise, therefore, particularly in the case of divorce, man can initiate the course of divorce, but a woman cannot. She, no doubt, can go to a qadi to obtain separation on the ground of unbearable maltreatment and demand dissolution of marriage by surrendering her right to mahar (dowry). This provision is reasonable because it prevents women from obtaining separation on flimsy grounds.

Islam gives women the right of choosing her life-partner. No one can compel her to accept any man as her husband. The matter lies entirely on her independent judgment. So she does not have the right to take the initiative for annulment of wedlock. Yet she has a recourse. She can go to a mujtahid or hakim sharah and obtain separation and then marry again whomsoever she likes.

I'm confused by the commentary. It states that a woman doesn't have the right to take the initiative for divorce, but points to some sort of loophole a sentence later? I'd like to clarify, is it still considered talaq if it's the woman who initiates and obtains separation?

 

[ashura]

This issue addressed has been resolved ten times already. I agree that this thread should be cesspooled. We can discuss gender equality in a new thread.

I agree with you and S.A.M.

edit: on the closing, not the cesspool-ing

 

[S.A.M.]

That's taskmaster.



Just finished reading a good chunk of that part of the sura. It seems directed towards men (repeated phrase of "and when you (have) divorce(d) women"). I was confused by some bits in particular:

[Shakir 2:228] And the divorced women should keep themselves in waiting for three courses; and it is not lawful for them that they should conceal what Allah has created in their wombs, if they believe in Allah and the last day; and their husbands have a better right to take them back in the meanwhile if they wish for reconciliation; and they have rights similar to those against them in a just manner, and the men are a degree above them, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.

The commentary explained it as such: "But the men are a degree above women" refers to the natural differences which separate men from women. Allah is all-wise, therefore, particularly in the case of divorce, man can initiate the course of divorce, but a woman cannot. She, no doubt, can go to a qadi to obtain separation on the ground of unbearable maltreatment and demand dissolution of marriage by surrendering her right to mahar (dowry). This provision is reasonable because it prevents women from obtaining separation on flimsy grounds.

Islam gives women the right of choosing her life-partner. No one can compel her to accept any man as her husband. The matter lies entirely on her independent judgment. So she does not have the right to take the initiative for annulment of wedlock. Yet she has a recourse. She can go to a mujtahid or hakim sharah and obtain separation and then marry again whomsoever she likes.

I'm confused by the commentary. It states that a woman doesn't have the right to take the initiative for divorce, but points to some sort of loophole a sentence later? I'd like to clarify, is it still considered talaq if it's the woman who initiates and obtains separation?

Since the woman has sole right to her property but the husband must pay for maintenance, a woman has to apply to let go of her marriage dower (payment at time of marriage by the groom) if she applies for the divorce. ie, if she wants to leave him, she cannot take the dower. However, he still has to provide for the children.

Ah I forget you may not know, in Islam, marriage is a contract agreed to by both parties, for which the husband gives a dower to indicate his good faith.

 

[ashura]

Since the woman has sole right to her property but the husband must pay for maintenance, a woman has to apply to let go of her marriage dower (payment at time of marriage by the groom) if she applies for the divorce. ie, if she wants to leave him, she cannot take the dower. However, he still has to provide for the children.

Ah I forget you may not know, in Islam, marriage is a contract agreed to by both parties, for which the husband gives a dower to indicate his good faith.

No worries, I wiki'd dower the second I read this, but thanks for the explanation.

Is the dower something that's meant to be kept safe and unused, or can it be used and spent if it's of monetary value? And if it's the second case, and the wife has spent her dower, what options are left open to her?

 

[S.A.M.]

No worries, I wiki'd dower the second I read this, but thanks for the explanation.

Is the dower something that's meant to be kept safe and unused, or can it be used and spent if it's of monetary value? And if it's the second case, and the wife has spent her dower, what options are left open to her?

Hmm the dower is generally paid in advance, but what it usually means (in practice) is that if the divorce is her choice, he won't pay for her maintenance; in reality, however, if she has children he has to help her support them, so it all depends on how much money she has of her own, and what the qadi thinks is fair. It also depends on whether he remarries, she remarries (though he is still bound to provide for his children), what the financial status of their families are etc. This is where sharia comes in with several legal opinions on what is to be done under the various circumstances.

A settlement from the groom to the bride is an essential part of current traditional Muslim marriages: a man must pay mahr to his bride. It is considered a gift which she has to agree on. The dower can be any value as long as it is agreed upon by both parties. When the groom gives his bride the dower, it becomes her property. In case of a divorce, she won't have to give up her dower unless she is the one who requested the divorce. In the later case, her husband may ask her to return the dower to him. However, if she has requested the divorce due to her suffering any form of abuse, or has other acceptable reasons for a divorce in Islamic laws (such as her husband suffering from illness or being impotent, etc.), the current judge often will not ask her to give the dower back to her husband. But as the author of the previous sentence clearly implies, the judge can "ask" the wife to return the dowry even if she has suffered abuse at the hands of the husband.

The amount promised or paid to the bride forms part of her personal property and is of assistance to her in times of financial need, such as a divorce or desertion by the husband. While the Mahr is usually in the form of cash, it may also be a house or viable business that is put in her name and can be run and owned entirely by her if she so chooses.

Of course, in most Islamic countries today, the legal systems are dominated by men who will not provide women with her rights as she is granted by the religion, and most women are not educated in the religion to know any better.

 

[ashura]

Hmm the dower is generally paid in advance, but what it usually means (in practice) is that if the divorce is her choice, he won't pay for her maintenance; in reality, however, if she has children he has to help her support them, so it all depends on how much money she has of her own, and what the qadi thinks is fair. It also depends on whether he remarries, she remarries (though he is still bound to provide for his children), what the financial status of their families are etc. This is where sharia comes in with several legal opinions on what is to be done under the various circumstances.

But on the flip side, does the husband have to do anything similar to what the wife does to initiate and complete a divorce?

Of course, in most Islamic countries today, the legal systems are dominated by men who will not provide women with her rights as she is granted by the religion, and most women are not educated in the religion to know any better.

Yeah, I know. That's why I'd like to stick to what the Quran has to say on the subject. A lot of today's sharia laws are sick and twisted versions of what they really should be. It's not what I'd use to judge Islam.

 

[S.A.M.]

But on the flip side, does the husband have to do anything similar to what the wife does to initiate and complete a divorce?



Yeah, I know. That's why I'd like to stick to what the Quran has to say on the subject. A lot of today's sharia laws are sick and twisted versions of what they really should be. It's not what I'd use to judge Islam.

The sharia laws are not todays, they haven't been revised since the Ottomans. Thats the only problem with them. Besides they are not "laws" but legal options. What is required is for the clerics today to go over them and bring them in step with society. Unfortunately that region has been under wars and dictators for too long and many good men have been killed, so we are left with very few good men who are currently in step with society, but lack the political clout to do anything about it. I hope for better things from imams brought up and educated in the West, like this:

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50816F63E540C728CDDAF0894DF404482

Perhaps they can make the sharia more relevant, esp for issues which the legal systems don't cover.

As to the husband, if he initiates the divorce, he pays maintenance.

 

[ashura]

The sharia laws are not todays, they haven't been revised since the Ottomans. Thats the only problem with them. Besides they are not "laws" but legal options. What is required is for the clerics today to go over them and bring them in step with society. Unfortunately that region has been under wars and dictators for too long and many good men have been killed, so we are left with very few good men who are currently in step with society, but lack the political clout to do anything about it. I hope for better things from imams brought up and educated in the West, like this:

http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F50816F63E540C728CDDAF0894DF404482

Perhaps they can make the sharia more relevant, esp for issues which the legal systems don't cover.

As to the husband, if he initiates the divorce, he pays maintenance.

The imam shortage in the US definitely doesn't get a lot of press. Here's an article with similar findings : http://citylimits.org/content/articles/viewarticle.cfm?article_id=3254

But to get get back to our discussion.. please correct me if I misunderstood somewhere: if a couple were to only follow the quran, should the husband initiate divorce, he has to pay maintenance but the wife keeps the dower, and if the wife initiates it, she has to return the dower and that's that. Sound about right?

 

[S.A.M.]

The imam shortage in the US definitely doesn't get a lot of press. Here's an article with similar findings : http://citylimits.org/content/articles/viewarticle.cfm?article_id=3254

But to get get back to our discussion.. please correct me if I misunderstood somewhere: if a couple were to only follow the quran, should the husband initiate divorce, he has to pay maintenance but the wife keeps the dower, and if the wife initiates it, she has to return the dower and that's that. Sound about right?

The maintenance is for the children, the dower is the only thing that is dependent on the initiation by wife or husband. Women are supposed to work, so they should be able to take care of themselves, but if they are married, the husband has to provide for them. Sorry if I confused you, I am a little distracted.

 

[ashura]

The maintenance is for the children, the dower is the only thing that is dependent on the initiation by wife or husband. Women are supposed to work, so they should be able to take care of themselves, but if they are married, the husband has to provide for them. Sorry if I confused you, I am a little distracted.

No worries.

So assuming no children are involved, if husband initiates, woman keeps the dower. If wife initiates, woman relinquishes the dower. Did I get it this time?

 

[S.A.M.]

No worries.

So assuming no children are involved, if husband initiates, woman keeps the dower. If wife initiates, woman relinquishes the dower. Did I get it this time?

Yup.

Although if the wife is seeking divorce for impotence or ill treatment, the qadi may ask her not to return the dower.

 

[ashura]

Yup.

Although if the wife is seeking divorce for impotence or ill treatment, the qadi may ask her not to return the dower.

You mentioned women working, and you also mentioned that if they're married the husband has to provide for them. Can those two coexist, and is there scripture supporting those two statements?

I guess my main question is, are women supposed to stop working once they get married? That can't be right since the prophet himself married a successful trader. What does the Quran say about two working people getting married?