eternal hell awaits anyone who questions gods infinite love

Originally posted by okinrus
You do not understand. Riley there lots of difficult sections but this is not one of them... Jesus is the Son of David.
Click to expand...
______

But Jesus was NOT God.

Jesus was elevated to the title of "Son of theos" by his friends after he died...

and Paul says the great event of his resurrection from the dead was when it happened.

But that's ONLY because Peter told him that Jesus had appeared to him after his death, and then to all the other apostles...

which meant the apostles were all part of the scam, to convince Paul that his dream or vision or whatever was actually an appearance from a risen Jesus...

and Paul thought the best way to make the Greeks aware of this event was to call Jesus a "Son of theos."

But "son of theos" was a relatively minor title in Paul's Greek theology.... even women related to the Roman Emperor had been defied by the Roman Senate. Not just the Emperor, but his relatives as well. So, being Son of Theos meant nothing more than you were a close relative to a dead king. Certainly the genealogy linking Jesus to David met that standard.

But "son of theos" is not the same thing that you mean by "God."
 
Originally posted by okinrus
The Son of David is God or at least has

>> the properties of God. << http://www.zeitun-eg.org/proph9.htm
Click to expand...

This link gives places in the Bible where Jesus is identified as a son of David.

Has nothing to do with Jesus having "properties of God."

The people who wrote these verses wanted a human Messiah, a human Savior, because they had been conquered by a foreign power. Their sacred writings said YHWH had promised Abraham and his descendants a piece of land forever, and they wanted God to fulfill his promise.

By sending a Savior. A Messiah.

The link you posted quotes from the King James Version:
Acts 13:22-23
And when he had removed him, he raised up unto them David to be their king; to whom also he gave testimony, and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after mine own heart, which shall fulfil all my will.

>> Of this man's seed hath

>>> God according to his promise

>>> raised unto Israel a Saviour, Jesus:
_____________

Calling a rabbi a "savior" is not the same thing as calling him "god."

This - part of a speech by Paul - says that God - a distinct entity called "God" - has raised unto Israel, a Savior. The Savior is Jesus. The Savior is "of this man's seed" meaning he was NOT the product of a virgin conception.

Paul talked at length about the mission and nature of Jesus, and NEVER said Jesus was god.

It's not in there.

Do you bother reading this stuff before you post it? Because that's one of the rules - you need to post verses that support YOUR position, not MY position. And when they're simply not on the subject, like this one, you're not doing your part.
 
Last edited:
Re: Re: eternal hell awaits anyone who questions gods infinite love

Originally posted by Red Devil
No, its Christian brainwashing!
Click to expand...
______-

Interesting article in today's news.

Catholic Church hired a panel of outside laypeople to make sure the clergy was serious about stopping the abuse of children.

Head of panel was very critical, said the clergy wasn't doing enough.

After heading up the panel for one year, they fired him.

So, the Catholic Church is NOT serious about stopping the abuse of children. They don't want the full extent of it known.
 
Riley: You are very close to fact there. Abuse within the catholic church is rife - and not just children.
 
do you know the sad thing, part of the catholic church is called the rectory. there was an article in my local paper a while ago detailing how the senior clergyman or whatever was abusing an alter boy in the rectory. i had a double-take when reading that.
 
Where exactly do I or anyone else say how bad you are?
If you do any good then it must have been done through God since only God is good.
Click to expand...
There you've said it again! By that definition anything bad I do must be caused by satan, huh?
What is good? What is bad?
Do you "god-fearers" really see the world in black & white, right & wrong, good & evil?
 
There you've said it again! By that definition anything bad I do must be caused by satan, huh?
What is good? What is bad?
Click to expand...
Satan and God are not direct opposites. However what your saying is wrong. Some sin is unintentional and probably does not have its roots with Satan and his fallen angels. On the other hand, the heart itself may become diseased by demons but the sin not directly caused by demons. You have freewill to choose God and do Good or chose Satan and do evil. You are responsible for the choice but not what is Good. In reality to true Good you have to be concience of what is Good... and the only definition of good comes from God thus even when you seem to do good of your own accord, God also plays a role. Satan is not responsible for defining what is evil.

Do you "god-fearers" really see the world in black & white, right & wrong, good & evil?
Click to expand...
Gray areas are usually caused by sin or foggyness caused by the devil. We can judge actions based on their moral consequences. These consquences in turn will be judged by "love of God" and "love of neighbor".
 
Paul talked at length about the mission and nature of Jesus, and NEVER said Jesus was god.
Click to expand...

I'd still like a comment from one of our Christian proponents on that one. Please respond to the fact that YOUR VERY OWN BOOK says that Jesus was NOT mentioned as the son of God at Paul's sermon, and he was refered to as being "Of so-and-so's seed," indicating that he was NOT born of virgin birth or immaculate conception. It's in your OWN DAMN BOOK. Now please, enough of your silence, just respond to that. Riley is quoting evidence against Jesus being God out of your own book, why can't you come up with anything?

JD
 
Immaculate conception is different from the virgin birth. The immaculate conception refers to Mary being born sinless without original sin. Paul usually uses God for God the Father or otherwise known as the God of the OT. There are a few sections. God is rea

lly a title not a name so if Jesus meets the qualities of that title then we may give him godship.

I'd still like a comment from one of our Christian proponents on that one. Please respond to the fact that YOUR VERY OWN BOOK says that Jesus was NOT mentioned as the son of God at Paul's sermon, and he was refered to as being "Of so-and-so's seed," indicating that he was NOT born of virgin birth or immaculate conception. It's in your OWN DAMN BOOK. Now please, enough of your silence, just respond to that. Riley is quoting evidence against Jesus being God out of your own book, why can't you come up with anything?
Click to expand...
There would be no "damn" without hell and you do not believe in hell. Jesus is the Son of David. We don't mean biological son but as the messiah.



15
6 He is the image 7 of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.
16
For in him 8 were created all things in heaven and on earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers; all things were created through him and for him.
17
He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
18
He is the head of the body, the church. 9 He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he himself might be preeminent.
19
For in him all the fullness 10 was pleased to dwell,
20
and through him to reconcile all things for him, making peace by the blood of his cross 11 (through him), whether those on earth or those in heaven.
21
12 And you who once were alienated and hostile in mind because of evil deeds
22
he has now reconciled in his fleshly body through his death, to present you holy, without blemish, and irreproachable before him,
23
provided that you persevere in the faith, firmly grounded, stable, and not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, am a minister.


Why would Paul even need say that Jesus was God because it's in the old testament.
Numbers 23

Then Balaam said to Balak, "Build me seven altars, and prepare seven bullocks and seven rams for me here."
2
So he did as Balaam had ordered, offering a bullock and a ram on each altar. And Balak said to him, "I have erected the seven altars, and have offered a bullock and a ram on each."
3
Balaam then said to him, "Stand here by your holocaust while I go over there. Perhaps the LORD will meet me, and then I will tell you whatever he lets me see." He went out on the barren height,
4
and God met him.
5
When he had put an utterance in Balaam's mouth, the LORD said to him, "Go back to Balak, and speak accordingly."
6
So he went back to Balak, who was still standing by his holocaust together with all the princes of Moab.
7
1 Then Balaam gave voice to his oracle: From Aram has Balak brought me here, Moab's king, from the Eastern Mountains: "Come and lay a curse for me on Jacob, come and denounce Israel."
8
How can I curse whom God has not cursed? How denounce whom the LORD has not denounced?
9
2 For from the top of the crags I see him, from the heights I behold him. Here is a people that lives apart and does not reckon itself among the nations.
10
3 Who has ever counted the dust of Jacob, or numbered Israel's wind-borne particles? May I die the death of the just, may my descendants be as many as theirs!
11
"What have you done to me?" cried Balak to Balaam. "It was to curse my foes that I brought you here; instead, you have even blessed them."
12
Balaam replied, "Is it not what the LORD puts in my mouth that I must repeat with care?"
13
4 Then Balak said to him, "Please come with me to another place from which you can see only some and not all of them, and from there curse them for me."
14
So he brought him to the lookout field on the top of Pisgah, where he built seven altars and offered a bullock and a ram on each of them.
15
Balaam then said to Balak, "Stand here by your holocaust, while I seek a meeting over there."
16
Then the LORD met Balaam, and having put an utterance in his mouth, he said to him, "Go back to Balak, and speak accordingly."
17
So he went back to Balak, who was still standing by his holocaust together with the princes of Moab. When Balak asked him, "What did the LORD say?"
18
Balaam gave voice to his oracle: Be aroused, O Balak, and hearken; give ear to my testimony, O son of Zippor!
19
God is not man that he should speak falsely, nor human, that he should change his mind. Is he one to speak and not act, to decree and not fulfill?
20
It is a blessing I have been given to pronounce; a blessing which I cannot restrain.
21
5 Misfortune is not observed in Jacob, nor misery seen in Israel. The LORD, his God, is with him; with him is the triumph of his King.
22
6 It is God who brought him out of Egypt, a wild bull of towering might.
23
No, there is no sorcery against Jacob, nor omen against Israel. It shall yet be said of Jacob, and of Israel, "Behold what God has wrought!"
24
Here is a people that springs up like a lioness, and stalks forth like a lion; It rests not till it has devoured its prey and has drunk the blood of the slain.



Isaiah 53
Notice the LORD here. A title used only in the old testament for God.

Who would believe what we have heard? To whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2
1 He grew up like a sapling before him, like a shoot from the parched earth; There was in him no stately bearing to make us look at him, nor appearance that would attract us to him.
3
2 He was spurned and avoided by men, a man of suffering, accustomed to infirmity, One of those from whom men hide their faces, spurned, and we held him in no esteem.
4
3 Yet it was our infirmities that he bore, our sufferings that he endured, While we thought of him as stricken, as one smitten by God and afflicted.
5
But he was pierced for our offenses, crushed for our sins, Upon him was the chastisement that makes us whole, by his stripes we were healed.
6
We had all gone astray like sheep, each following his own way; But the LORD laid upon him the guilt of us all.
7
Though he was harshly treated, he submitted and opened not his mouth; Like a lamb led to the slaughter or a sheep before the shearers, he was silent and opened not his mouth.
8
Oppressed and condemned, he was taken away, and who would have thought any more of his destiny? When he was cut off from the land of the living, and smitten for the sin of his people,
9
A grave was assigned him among the wicked and a burial place with evildoers, Though he had done no wrong nor spoken any falsehood.
10
4 (But the LORD was pleased to crush him in infirmity.) If he gives his life as an offering for sin, he shall see his descendants in a long life, and the will of the LORD shall be accomplished through him.
11
Because of his affliction he shall see the light in fullness of days; Through his suffering, my servant shall justify many, and their guilt he shall bear.
12
Therefore I will give him his portion among the great, and he shall divide the spoils with the mighty, Because he surrendered himself to death and was counted among the wicked; And he shall take away the sins of many, and win pardon for their offenses.
Table of Contents Previous Chapter Next Chapter
Footnotes
1 [2] Only God appreciated his Servant's true greatness.

2 [3] Because he suffered, he was regarded as a sinner and therefore as one to be spurned.

3 [4-6] He did indeed suffer but it was for the sins of mankind, and through his sufferings men are healed.

4 [10-12] Because he fulfilled the divine will by suffering for the sins of others, the Servant will be rewarded by the Lord. See the light: enjoy happiness. This line may originally have read, "he shall drink and eat to the full"--at the thanksgiving sacrifice at which he shall divide the spoils (53:12).
 
The barren woman represents the Gentiles. The redeemer is Christ.

Isaiah 54
1
1 Raise a glad cry, you barren one who did not bear, break forth in jubilant song, you who were not in labor, For more numerous are the children of the deserted wife than the children of her who has a husband, says the LORD.
2
Enlarge the space for your tent, spread out your tent cloths unsparingly; lengthen your ropes and make firm your stakes.
3
For you shall spread abroad to the right and to the left; Your descendants shall dispossess the nations and shall people the desolate cities.
4
Fear not, you shall not be put to shame; you need not blush, for you shall not be disgraced. The shame of your youth you shall forget, the reproach of your widowhood no longer remember.
5
2 For he who has become your husband is your Maker; his name is the LORD of hosts; Your redeemer is the Holy One of Israel, called God of all the earth.
6
The LORD calls you back, like a wife forsaken and grieved in spirit, A wife married in youth and then cast off, says your God.
7
For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with great tenderness I will take you back.
8
In an outburst of wrath, for a moment I hid my face from you; But with enduring love I take pity on you, says the LORD, your redeemer.
9
This is for me like the days of Noah, when I swore that the waters of Noah should never again deluge the earth; So I have sworn not to be angry with you, or to rebuke you.
10
Though the mountains leave their place and the hills be shaken, My love shall never leave you nor my covenant of peace be shaken, says the LORD, who has mercy on you.
11
3 O afflicted one, storm-battered and unconsoled, I lay your pavements in carnelians, and your foundations in sapphires;
12
I will make your battlements of rubies, your gates of carbuncles, and all your walls of precious stones.
13
All your sons shall be taught by the LORD, and great shall be the peace of your children.
14
In justice shall you be established, far from the fear of oppression, where destruction cannot come near you.
15
Should there be any attack, it shall not be of my making; whoever attacks you shall fall before you.
16
Lo, I have created the craftsman who blows on the burning coals and forges weapons as his work; It is I also who have created the destroyer to work havoc.
17
No weapon fashioned against you shall prevail; every tongue you shall prove false that launches an accusation against you. This is the lot of the servants of the LORD, their vindication from me, says the LORD.
 
If there was any doubt to what Paul meant by savior
Isaiah 43

But now, thus says the LORD, who created you, O Jacob, and formed you, O Israel: Fear not, for I have redeemed you; I have called you by name: you are mine.
2
When you pass through the water, I will be with you; in the rivers you shall not drown. When you walk through fire, you shall not be burned; the flames shall not consume you.
3
1 For I am the LORD, your God, the Holy One of Israel, your savior. I give Egypt as your ransom, Ethiopia and Seba in return for you.
4
Because you are precious in my eyes and glorious, and because I love you, I give men in return for you and peoples in exchange for your life.
5
Fear not, for I am with you; from the east I will bring back your descendants, from the west I will gather you.
6
I will say to the north: Give them up! and to the south: Hold not back! Bring back my sons from afar, and my daughters from the ends of the earth:
7
Everyone who is named as mine, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.
8
Lead out the people who are blind though they have eyes, who are deaf though they have ears.
9
2 Let all the nations gather together, let the peoples assemble! Who among them could have revealed this, or foretold to us the earlier things? Let them produce witnesses to prove themselves right, that one may hear and say, "It is true!"
10
You are my witnesses, says the LORD, my servants whom I have chosen To know and believe in me and understand that it is I. Before me no god was formed, and after me there shall be none.
11
It is I, I the LORD; there is no savior but me.
12
It is I who foretold, I who saved; I made it known, not any strange god among you; You are my witnesses, says the LORD. I am God,
13
yes, from eternity I am He; There is none who can deliver from my hand: who can countermand what I do?
14
3 Thus says the LORD, your redeemer, the Holy One of Israel: For your sakes I send to Babylon; I will lower all the bars, and the Chaldeans shall cry out in lamentation.
15
I am the LORD, your Holy One, the creator of Israel, your King.
16
Thus says the LORD, who opens a way in the sea and a path in the mighty waters,
17
Who leads out chariots and horsemen, a powerful army, Till they lie prostrate together, never to rise, snuffed out and quenched like a wick.
18
4 Remember not the events of the past, the things of long ago consider not;
19
See, I am doing something new! Now it springs forth, do you not perceive it? In the desert I make a way, in the wasteland, rivers.
20
Wild beasts honor me, jackals and ostriches, For I put water in the desert and rivers in the wasteland for my chosen people to drink,
21
The people whom I formed for myself, that they might announce my praise.
22
5 Yet you did not call upon me, O Jacob, for you grew weary of me, O Israel.
23
You did not bring me sheep for your holocausts, nor honor me with your sacrifices. I did not exact from you the service of offerings, nor weary you for frankincense.
24
6 You did not buy me sweet cane for money, nor fill me with the fat of your sacrifices; Instead, you burdened me with your sins, and wearied me with your crimes.
25
It is I, I, who wipe out, for my own sake, your offenses; your sins I remember no more.
26
Would you have me remember, have us come to trial? Speak up, prove your innocence!
27
7 Your first father sinned; your spokesmen rebelled against me
28
Till I repudiated the holy gates, put Jacob under the ban, and exposed Israel to scorn.
 
The problem with quoting the old testament if you believe Jesus was the messiah mentioned in it, as you seem to, is that the new testament says the old one is obsolete. It is therefore pointless to use it in any argument when trying to validate your beliefs.

Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
 
The problem with quoting the old testament if you believe Jesus was the messiah mentioned in it, as you seem to, is that the new testament says the old one is obsolete. It is therefore pointless to use it in any argument when trying to validate your beliefs.

Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.
Click to expand...
This is prophetical section not part of the Torah.
The old testment covenant was only to the Jews and regards to dietary restrictions etc. It does not mean the old testament is obsolete, otherwise christians would just throw it out. Jesus says "not an iota of the law will be removed until all has been fullfilled".


6
The LORD calls you back, like a wife forsaken and grieved in spirit, A wife married in youth and then cast off, says your God.
7
For a brief moment I abandoned you, but with great tenderness I will take you back.
8
In an outburst of wrath, for a moment I hid my face from you; But with enduring love I take pity on you, says the LORD, your redeemer.
9
This is for me like the days of Noah, when I swore that the waters of Noah should never again deluge the earth; So I have sworn not to be angry with you, or to rebuke you.
10
Though the mountains leave their place and the hills be shaken, My love shall never leave you nor my covenant of peace be shaken, says the LORD, who has mercy on you.

This prophesies the new convenant with the gentiles.
 
okinrus
You have freewill to choose God and do Good or chose Satan and do evil
Click to expand...
how do i then do good? i have accepted neither of these two beings and am nicer than most of my christian mates because i'm not always sitting there judging how low people are beneath me based on what and how strong their faith is. in my capacity with freewill i'm doing a better job at being good than christian people who are threatened to be good, or else.
 
Ok okinrus, I see there is no point in arguing with you on a biblical level as you will just take things to mean whatever it takes to justify your beliefs in the text. (note I say your beliefs as I am not so sure that is how the texts were meant to be taken in the first place, however, what scares me is maybe that is the way they were meant to be taken) The chapter preceding that verse says nothing of laws and dietary restrictions all it speaks of is the former covenant.

9It will not be like the covenant
I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand
to lead them out of Egypt,
because they did not remain faithful to my covenant,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel
after that time, declares the Lord.
I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
11No longer will a man teach his neighbor,
or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,'
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest.
12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more.
 
Besides, after reading that passage through again, it appears to me that everyone already knows God so any particular belief they hold must be correct, and any argument or even religious affiliation is pointless according to your book.
 
No... Jesus said "God is your only teacher". Jesus is our teacher.
1 John 2:3 "The way we may be sure that we know him is to keep his commandments. Whoever says, "I know him," but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Ok okinrus, I see there is no point in arguing with you on a biblical level as you will just take things to mean whatever it takes to justify your beliefs in the text. (note I say your beliefs as I am not so sure that is how the texts were meant to be taken in the first place, however, what scares me is maybe that is the way they were meant to be taken) The chapter preceding that verse says nothing of laws and dietary restrictions all it speaks of is the former covenant.
Click to expand...
The dietary restrictions are in the Torah and are considered part of the old convenant made with Isreal. Jesus said something like "what goes into your mouth does not defile you, but only what comes out" and Peter later had a prophetic vision telling him that all animals created by God were clean. http://home.wmis.net/~pilgrim/covenant.htm
 
how do i then do good? i have accepted neither of these two beings and am nicer than most of my christian mates because i'm not always sitting there judging how low people are beneath me based on what and how strong their faith is. in my capacity with freewill i'm doing a better job at being good than christian people who are threatened to be good, or else.
Click to expand...
Christians are not supposed to judge others. God is within you at least sometimes, but you do not acknowledge him. Anyways what generally happens is that people's good works get inflated with pride and so they are not truely good. Then they become hypocritical with hearts of stone like the Pharisees.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top