Forty miles off for the short distance he measured, so the maps (except the "sea kings" maps) continued to suck until Harrison's chronometer, because east-west distances were not accurately measured when the precession mapping system became little known.
End of Ice Age
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Hey The Visitor, there are 12 zodiac sign because those are subdivisions of the 6 sides of the earth hexagon, the signs of the zodiac last 2,160 years, times 12 equals 25,920 years, the amount of time it would take the for the Earth's axis to wobble once.
The 440 and 880 denominated running races are remnants of the ancient Egyptians' surveying of the dimensions of the GP, just as was the Greek 60 x 60 distance measuring system a remnant of the hexagon mapping scheme. Timosthenes said that the "12 Winds" mapping system (precession mapping) was little used by his time, because, though he said it was very accurate, he said it was too very difficult.
The 440 and 880 denominated running races are remnants of the ancient Egyptians' surveying of the dimensions of the GP, just as was the Greek 60 x 60 distance measuring system a remnant of the hexagon mapping scheme. Timosthenes said that the "12 Winds" mapping system (precession mapping) was little used by his time, because, though he said it was very accurate, he said it was too very difficult.
Ok IceAgeCivilizations, I can accept that sudden enrichment of the atmosphere in C-12 would upset C-14 dating. But how much are we talking here, where was the volcanism, and how is it dated? If such an influx occurred in the last 4000 years, so as to make organic material of this age look relatively depleted in C-14, then it should show up in ice cores. Do you have such evidence? I can find none. I don't know how large a release of C-12 would be necessary to make a 4000 year-old pollen grain appear 10,000 years old (anybody have any idea?), but as a point of reference, the formation of the Deccan Traps has been estimated to have contributed no more than 75 ppm of CO2 (Caldeira K and Rampino M R 1990 Geophys Res. Lett. 17 1299) (not a recent reference, I know, but I just needed a quick idea of the value).
Regarding your claim about tree rings, do you wish to imply that tree ring-derived chronologies that appear to represent up to 10,000 years actually go back no further than around 4000 years, because a single year could contain many wet periods? If this is not your argument, please clarify.
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The polar icecaps have much volcanic ash, the volcanos were rocking during the Ice Age, much isostatic adjustment to the overburden of the then growing Ice Age icepacks, and readjustment when they melted.
Tree rings do reflect periods of more and less growth, not years.
Tree rings do reflect periods of more and less growth, not years.
Another factor is that 4,000 years ago, the Earth's magnetic field strength was much greater, this repelled much of the radiation which causes N14 to become C14, so this too results in exaggerated C14 dates for more ancient samples.
The Earth's magnetic field strength has decreased 7% over the last 150 years.
The Earth's magnetic field strength has decreased 7% over the last 150 years.
How old is the Earth? How old is life on Earth?
Like Orthodox rabbis say, about 6,000 years old.
You really think so?
Is that the Earth, or just life on Earth?
Is that the Earth, or just life on Earth?
If Erathostenes was off by only 40 miles out of about 4,000 miles for the radius, then he was off by 1 part per 100. It does not seem that difficult to imagine that the Egyptians, being the very precise measurers of astronomy that they were, were able to have an accuracy that was ten times better, being off by only about 4 miles out of about 4,000 miles.
I haven't read the reports on Erathostenes actual work in many years, and I don't actually recall exactly what his results were, only that they were valid, but not real close due to his lack of precision. He likely only did the measurement once, after having been inspired (quite possibly by locals who told him about legends of their ancestors), before returning to his native land of Greece. Doing the measurement repeatedly, under precise conditions, would likely give greater precision, comparable to what the Egyptians were in fact able to achieve (Earth's radius accurate to 1 part per 1,000).
The Visitor makes a cogent comment about our base-12 counting system we clearly initially used.
12 blocks of 440 feet = 5280 feet = 1 British Mile
1760 RC = 4 X 440 RC = Perimeter of Base of GP = 1 "Egyptian Mile"
1760 Yards = 4 X 440 Yards = 1 British Mile
How many Pence to the Shilling, 12?
16 Shillings to the Pound, though, just like 16 Ounces to the Quart (I know, Britain went metric since I was there last.)
So, what were the other systems of linear measurement in ancient times?
We have the Royal Cubit that was used extensively for millenia, in Egypt and nearby areas.
We have the Scientific Cubit that was developed, then abandoned almost immediately and completely forgotten about until the 1800s A.D. when re-discovered by an examination of the interior of the GP.
We have the Yard, which might be originally based on 3 X 12 scientific-inches, though its origin otherwise remains obscure.
We have the Meter, which was developed in the late 1700s, almost exactly in the same manner as the scientific cubit, but using the 1/10,000,000th of the 1/4 circumference of Earth, rather than the 1/10,000,000th of the radius of Earth.
What systems of measurement were in use in Persia, in Mesopotamia, in Asia, in Greece, in Rome, in the Americas, etc.? Do we have these known as accurately as the RC (which is likely defined by scholars as the 1/1760th of the Base Perimeter of the GP)?
I would be interested in reading more about ancient maps, particularly if any show former sea-levels. Are any of these proven to be non-fake, and published in recognized literature? It is not implausible that ancient peoples were navigating the oceans in large ships. Large ship births were discovered decades ago in India (though I'm not certain if they were well dated other than being from ancient times) that accomodated ships that would dwarf those of the Phoenicians and Greeks.
We are constantly discovering that ancient peoples were more advanced than previously believed in many ways. A recent find of a Greek shipwreck included a multi-geared (30+ gears?) metal calculator from circa 300 B.C.
And, finally, in answer to a question posed - when do you believe the Ice Ages ended? The answer is - they haven't.
We are still in the midst of an Ice Age - the glaciers have only half-melted, raising the sea level some 400 feet. There is another 400 feet to go before the Ice Ages are ended.
Currently, we are in a 'lull' of melting, just as there have been numerous other 'lulls' in which the sea level stabilizes for centuries or millenia, then the melting resumes. Then again, it might return to a full Ice-Age without undergoing the complete melt-down, as has repeatedly occurred eons ago.
Time will tell.
Laika's comments appear valid, particularly with tree-ring dating. I do not believe there would have been two growing cycles in one year during any time in the past dozen millenia that would have thrown off that counting method. There is always some addition of fossil carbon to the atmosphere, from volcanoes, methane hydrate releases, etc. There is no recorded spike of such Carbon release, however, until the present times with the large spike due to industrialization. However, there might be some error in dating the phases of melting of the glaciers, and it's possible there's even been some small (a few feet) rise in the sea levels during the past few millenia, though our recent records for the past few centuries show them stable. Generally, however, it is believed we were in a full Ice-Age (sea levels 400 feet lower than presently) for many millenia (100,000 years +?), and indeed for most of humanity's 'pre-history', before the start of the melt down commenced roughly 18,000 years ago. Perhaps it will take another 18,000 years to complete the melt-down.
The Visitors comments about giants continues to be intriguing. We know that such types came into existence in the ancient past, the most famously documented being Goliath of the David-and-Goliath fame in the Bible story.
If there was another race of people (just as the Neanderthals were another race of 'people'), clearly we would have been 'at war' with them (since we've always been 'at war' with some tribe or another, amongst ourselves). It is not beyond the realm of possibility that a mutant race also arose from earlier humans, that included gigantism and polydactyly. However, The Visitor has the terrible habit of telling us about all of his interesting readings, but never citing any of them.
That double-row-of-dentition sounds like an aberrant mutation, since all other hominid species, going back millions of years, always have single rows. I'd need to see a skull or other proof, not just an anecdotal report. As they say in Missouri, show me.
I haven't read the reports on Erathostenes actual work in many years, and I don't actually recall exactly what his results were, only that they were valid, but not real close due to his lack of precision. He likely only did the measurement once, after having been inspired (quite possibly by locals who told him about legends of their ancestors), before returning to his native land of Greece. Doing the measurement repeatedly, under precise conditions, would likely give greater precision, comparable to what the Egyptians were in fact able to achieve (Earth's radius accurate to 1 part per 1,000).
The Visitor makes a cogent comment about our base-12 counting system we clearly initially used.
12 blocks of 440 feet = 5280 feet = 1 British Mile
1760 RC = 4 X 440 RC = Perimeter of Base of GP = 1 "Egyptian Mile"
1760 Yards = 4 X 440 Yards = 1 British Mile
How many Pence to the Shilling, 12?
16 Shillings to the Pound, though, just like 16 Ounces to the Quart (I know, Britain went metric since I was there last.)
So, what were the other systems of linear measurement in ancient times?
We have the Royal Cubit that was used extensively for millenia, in Egypt and nearby areas.
We have the Scientific Cubit that was developed, then abandoned almost immediately and completely forgotten about until the 1800s A.D. when re-discovered by an examination of the interior of the GP.
We have the Yard, which might be originally based on 3 X 12 scientific-inches, though its origin otherwise remains obscure.
We have the Meter, which was developed in the late 1700s, almost exactly in the same manner as the scientific cubit, but using the 1/10,000,000th of the 1/4 circumference of Earth, rather than the 1/10,000,000th of the radius of Earth.
What systems of measurement were in use in Persia, in Mesopotamia, in Asia, in Greece, in Rome, in the Americas, etc.? Do we have these known as accurately as the RC (which is likely defined by scholars as the 1/1760th of the Base Perimeter of the GP)?
I would be interested in reading more about ancient maps, particularly if any show former sea-levels. Are any of these proven to be non-fake, and published in recognized literature? It is not implausible that ancient peoples were navigating the oceans in large ships. Large ship births were discovered decades ago in India (though I'm not certain if they were well dated other than being from ancient times) that accomodated ships that would dwarf those of the Phoenicians and Greeks.
We are constantly discovering that ancient peoples were more advanced than previously believed in many ways. A recent find of a Greek shipwreck included a multi-geared (30+ gears?) metal calculator from circa 300 B.C.
And, finally, in answer to a question posed - when do you believe the Ice Ages ended? The answer is - they haven't.
We are still in the midst of an Ice Age - the glaciers have only half-melted, raising the sea level some 400 feet. There is another 400 feet to go before the Ice Ages are ended.
Currently, we are in a 'lull' of melting, just as there have been numerous other 'lulls' in which the sea level stabilizes for centuries or millenia, then the melting resumes. Then again, it might return to a full Ice-Age without undergoing the complete melt-down, as has repeatedly occurred eons ago.
Time will tell.
Laika's comments appear valid, particularly with tree-ring dating. I do not believe there would have been two growing cycles in one year during any time in the past dozen millenia that would have thrown off that counting method. There is always some addition of fossil carbon to the atmosphere, from volcanoes, methane hydrate releases, etc. There is no recorded spike of such Carbon release, however, until the present times with the large spike due to industrialization. However, there might be some error in dating the phases of melting of the glaciers, and it's possible there's even been some small (a few feet) rise in the sea levels during the past few millenia, though our recent records for the past few centuries show them stable. Generally, however, it is believed we were in a full Ice-Age (sea levels 400 feet lower than presently) for many millenia (100,000 years +?), and indeed for most of humanity's 'pre-history', before the start of the melt down commenced roughly 18,000 years ago. Perhaps it will take another 18,000 years to complete the melt-down.
The Visitors comments about giants continues to be intriguing. We know that such types came into existence in the ancient past, the most famously documented being Goliath of the David-and-Goliath fame in the Bible story.
If there was another race of people (just as the Neanderthals were another race of 'people'), clearly we would have been 'at war' with them (since we've always been 'at war' with some tribe or another, amongst ourselves). It is not beyond the realm of possibility that a mutant race also arose from earlier humans, that included gigantism and polydactyly. However, The Visitor has the terrible habit of telling us about all of his interesting readings, but never citing any of them.
That double-row-of-dentition sounds like an aberrant mutation, since all other hominid species, going back millions of years, always have single rows. I'd need to see a skull or other proof, not just an anecdotal report. As they say in Missouri, show me.
Dude, I wouldn't believe in evolution either, if I thought the whole thing only started 6,000 years ago.
The even funnier thing is the creationists who believe ina big flood, and Kinds, and rationalise away the fossil evidence and geological evidence by saying it was all laid down in the flood. So actually lots of animals were killed off during the flood, and those that were left mutated so rapidly ina few thousand years, that they changed from the creatures found in 60 million year old fossils to modern animals.
Its amazing how much cognitive dissonance people can survive!
Strange that they settled in distinctive layers, not even by size, but so they appear to form a progression.
All "creationists" don't believe the world is only 6,000 years old.
I don't, but I probably wouldn't be considered a true creationist.
I believe the world may be millions of years old, and science finding layers going back that far may be true.
But that doesn't contradict whats really in the scriptures, just the orthodox clergy's mis-interpretation of them.
Thats like me mis-quoting you in a debate, and using my own mis-quote to dismiss your argument.
The bible only refers to this latest creation of man as Adam being formed in the garden, because it is what concerns us.
If a previous creation was with something other than "modern humans".......it wouldn't concern us would it.
The bible wasn't intended to report the entire Earth's history.....just the part that relates to us.
Get it?
It also doesn't say God in the creation of man, couldn't have been using a mechanism like evolution to do it.
The bible also refers to a time previous to Adam, when the Earth was inhabited.
The truth is not in religion, or science......they are both deceptions of the god of this world.
But it can be found in a balance of the two, if you have your senses exercised in the discernment of "good and evil".
You might try actually reading something all the way through next time.......before trying to make fun of it.
I don't, but I probably wouldn't be considered a true creationist.
I believe the world may be millions of years old, and science finding layers going back that far may be true.
But that doesn't contradict whats really in the scriptures, just the orthodox clergy's mis-interpretation of them.
Thats like me mis-quoting you in a debate, and using my own mis-quote to dismiss your argument.
The bible only refers to this latest creation of man as Adam being formed in the garden, because it is what concerns us.
If a previous creation was with something other than "modern humans".......it wouldn't concern us would it.
The bible wasn't intended to report the entire Earth's history.....just the part that relates to us.
Get it?
It also doesn't say God in the creation of man, couldn't have been using a mechanism like evolution to do it.
The bible also refers to a time previous to Adam, when the Earth was inhabited.
The truth is not in religion, or science......they are both deceptions of the god of this world.
But it can be found in a balance of the two, if you have your senses exercised in the discernment of "good and evil".
You might try actually reading something all the way through next time.......before trying to make fun of it.
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That is a slightly more rational viewpoint.
Ok. Where specifically was the volcanism that distorted the C-14 dating, what evidence is there and how is this volcanism itself dated? I was not aware of an increase in volcanism around 4000 years ago. Is there an increase in CO2 coincident with the ash layers you speak of? Do you have a reference? What do you think of calibration of C-14 dates against varves, which themselves can record many thousands of years'-worth of climatological history?
Also, to clarify, are you saying that many tree rings can form in a single year, thus misleading chronologists? Do you think that there could consistently be two or more wet periods in each year so as to squeeze an apparent 10,000 years'-worth of rings into an actual 4000 years or less?
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The twelve signs of the zodiac also represent the first bible written in the sky.
They start at the virgin...Virgo, and lead to Leo the Lion.
Jesus came To Earth born of a virgin and died to pay the price required for our salvation, then He returns as The Lion of the tribe of Judah.
It also has a real outcome on the nature we are born with in the flesh.
Since the nature in our flesh is at enmity with God, and needs to be harnessed and kept under control it is advantageous to know one's enemy.
A fighter studies the particular moves of the opponent he is facing before he goes to the contest.....if possible.
A book titled "Sun Signs" explains these twelve different personality portraits.
I believe there is some truth to the individual signs "traits", but I don't subscribe to the daily horoscopes use of it by a long shot.
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The Egyptians were no "mathematical masters". The Greeks far exceeded them in every way possible. Indeed, the totality of Western mathematics has its origins in GREEK, not EGYPTIAN sources.
IceAgeCivilizations:
Actually, I was a bit off. The difference between the measurements of our Greek friend and the real world is this:
39,690 km
40,008 km
So with that method,he was only 300 km off. This is a miniscule error.
IceAgeCivilizations:
Actually, I was a bit off. The difference between the measurements of our Greek friend and the real world is this:
39,690 km
40,008 km
So with that method,he was only 300 km off. This is a miniscule error.
Prince:
That's still 318 parts per 40,008, or roughly slightly less than 1 part per 100 in error. That's what I posted a few above. The ANCIENT Egyptians perfected that during the Pyramid Building era (that lasted only about 2 centuries), getting the size of the Earth accurate to about 1 part per 1000. They had a sophisticated style of applied geometry, though I have no evidence on their proofs, etc. along the lines of Euclid, Pythagoras, et al. All written materials from that era disappeared, likely two millenia before Erathostenes came along. There appears to have been a loss of Egyptian knowledge subsequent to the Pyramid Era. It is know that there were long periods (century or more) in which Egypt was in chaos, only to have a strong Pharaoh come along and re-unite/re-build. They even began repairing some of the older temples that had fallen into disrepair centuries earlier, and possibly even the Sphinx. There was not one long continuous period of Egyptian culture over several millenia, slowly improving over time, then surpassed by the Greeks who invaded. Rather, it was a series of discontinuous cultural advances and declines, culminating in a very weak Egypt invaded by Alexander, and then centuries later by Rome during the ethnic-Greek/Egyptian Cleopatra's rule.
That's still 318 parts per 40,008, or roughly slightly less than 1 part per 100 in error. That's what I posted a few above. The ANCIENT Egyptians perfected that during the Pyramid Building era (that lasted only about 2 centuries), getting the size of the Earth accurate to about 1 part per 1000. They had a sophisticated style of applied geometry, though I have no evidence on their proofs, etc. along the lines of Euclid, Pythagoras, et al. All written materials from that era disappeared, likely two millenia before Erathostenes came along. There appears to have been a loss of Egyptian knowledge subsequent to the Pyramid Era. It is know that there were long periods (century or more) in which Egypt was in chaos, only to have a strong Pharaoh come along and re-unite/re-build. They even began repairing some of the older temples that had fallen into disrepair centuries earlier, and possibly even the Sphinx. There was not one long continuous period of Egyptian culture over several millenia, slowly improving over time, then surpassed by the Greeks who invaded. Rather, it was a series of discontinuous cultural advances and declines, culminating in a very weak Egypt invaded by Alexander, and then centuries later by Rome during the ethnic-Greek/Egyptian Cleopatra's rule.
The account of Goliath ties in with the purge of the giants by the armies of Israel and Esau.
Of all the kingdoms of the giants that were destroyed completely by God's commandment, there were just a few survivors that escaped Joshua's army.
They were recorded as fleeing into the area of Gath.
It was almost a thousand years later David meet Goliath and his four brothers, descendent's of those escaped giants in the city of Gath.
David assembled a group of specialized super-warriors he called his "mighty men", some of them gentiles from all different nationalities to hunt down the remnant of these giants.
Some giants were described as lion-like, one was a giant with a spear who's shaft was as the "staff of a weavers beam"
Another one was described as having six fingers per hand and six toes per foot.
This condition resurfaces today as a common genetic throw-back and is called polydactilism.
I read a book twenty years ago or more......I can't recall it's name, that told of a secret group of world leadrers still in control of the reigns.
They had been in control of Earth since before time was recorded, and all our major sciences and mathamatics had been passed down from them.
When in public they wore special gloves that hid the fact they had six fingers.
In the sixties there was a popular T.V. series called "The Invaders".......
The only way you could tell them apart from normal humans, was to look at their fingers.
Today in the news they just found an Egyptian style sarcophagus under London, and both the head and the hands of the body inside were missing.........................I kid you not.
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