End of Ice Age

Status
Not open for further replies.
Walter, you're really spinning now, as usual, what about the historical accounts which say Helike went under about 371 B.C.?

It's in shoreline sediments, Walter, it's not a mile out to sea in twenty feet of water.

Menouthis and Herakleion off Egypt are also said to have gone under circa 300 B.C., but there is no history of that happening then, don't you think the Greeks, and the Egyptians, would have recorded that two major port cities took the dive suddenly? Yes you would, but no record of it, because it happened over a thousand years before that, by sea level rise, like almost all the other now submerged megaliths.

Was Plato lying that much of Greece succumbed to the sea, city-states, farm lands, forests, shipbuilding facilities, back when Greece was at war with the great maritime power of the eastern Atlantic?
 
I have heard U.S. Civil Preparedness, or probably FEMA today with the help of the USGS have a map drawn up that shows what they believe will be the new map of the United States after this disaster hits.

The "New Eastern United States" and the "New Western United States" will be separated into two pieces by the Mississippi River that will be nearly 100 miles wide stretching from the gulf of Mexico to the Great Lakes cutting whats left of the U.S. in two.
The West coast will be somewhere else....Eastern California mountain range or something like that.

I saw the map years ago....the reason I said "I have heard" was because at the time I wasn't sure if it was authentic.
You might be able to find it on line but that may be restricted to avoid setting off a panic.

They are serious, and they are prepared.
If the public knew how serious and prepared the U.S. government was for this event.......there would be a mass stampede out of California.
 
Last edited:
IceAgeCivilizations:

Once again, I ask: Do you consider Plato's account of the afterlife at the end of The Republic to be a true reality of the spirit realm?
 
Ice Age:

Glad to see you went to the web sites I referenced on Helike. Now you're learnin'!

All I did was summarize those sites. What was then modern Helike, a port city, suddenly sank 20-30 feet in a matter of minutes, killing all of its inhabitants, taking several anchored ships down as well. It remained sunken, but viewable through the ocean waters, for centuries, and became a major tourist attraction of that era. Eratosthenes and numerous other writers wrote about their tourist experiences while there. Eventually, it became silted up with sediment, and forgotten about, until it was rediscovered only just recently (circa 2002?) as a lagoon at the edge of the sea. It was likely sought for due to the extensive written reports of its existence as an underwater tourist attraction in the days of ancient Greece. It should provide a wealth of information in the coming decades. It is expected that lots of statues, vases, jewelry, etc. will be found - a veritable treasure trove of ancient artifiacts preserved under all that silt.

However, that was not the first time a port city at that location sank under the waves. Two millenia earlier, circa 2500 B.C. (about the time the Great Pyramid was being built, or not long after), just a mile farther out, had been another port city (ancient ancient Helike) which had suffered a similar fate.

That is the one that was very recently (2005?) re-discovered, that you initially posted about, claiming it supported your contention that the Ice Ages ended abruptly only 4,000 years ago, with a rise of the oceans of some 400 feet.

Ancient ancient Helike of 2500 B.C. was only a bronze-age city, whereas ancient Helike of 370 B.C., built on the new shoreline, a mile further inland following the sinking of ancient ancient Helike, was an iron-age city of the classic Greek era. Now, do you have it clear yet? If not, go back and read the web pages I cited a few posts back. Then read them over again. Check all of the references cited on those web pages. Then you'll see that lightning does strike twice, if you wait long enough.

And additionally, the Egyptian city of Herkeileon (sp?) that sank under the waves several centuries B.C., was written about at that time as having suffered that kind of fate. Remember, that whole region is criss-crossed with fault zones due to the collision of the African plate with Europe, and the tearing apart of the plates at the Red Sea.

Visitor:

While it is safe to predict that LA will suffer additional earthquakes in the future, via the San Andreas fault and all the other faults in that region, I don't see any evidence that it should drop low enough to sink into the sea. It's remained high above the sea for millions of years, and the only time that region was under the sea was during the periods of time that the Ice Age glaciers were completely melted. Should the melt-down continue, LA might well be below sea level in a few millenia.

Tsunamis are another matter, and indeed, it is quite possible that a large (50-100 foot) tsunamis could hit the region sometime in the future, and move several miles inland. In Hawaii, we have 'indundation zones' printed in our phone books, showing the areas subject to tsunamis flooding and where one should evacuate in the event of a large tsunamis generated anywhere in the Pacific (along the 'Ring of Fire', or elsewhere).

However, when those big chunks of the islands go tumbling into the sea, along major fault zones, as has happened many times in the ancient past (we see the underwater debris fields stretching out hundreds of miles away from the islands, with huge chunks of basaltic blocks in the fields), they generate tsunamis locally that are up to 1,000 feet in height! One such tsunamis covered the entire island of Lanai, depositing loose coral up at the top, well above the height of the oceans when the Ice Age glaciers were completely melted. I hope that doesn't happen again soon!

And FEMA prepares for everything. It wouldn't surprise me if what you saw was a map of what the US would look like if the glaciers all melted (because of a nuclear war, which was a major threat between the U.S. and the then U.S.S.R. circa 30 years ago). They probably had a map showing just the opposite effect, too. What the US would look like if the Ice Ages returned with a vengeance, dropping the oceans some 400 feet, following a 'nuclear winter'. Because it is uncertain what the effect would be if all the nukes went off at once, they probably prepared maps for both possibilities
 
Walter, when Helike went under, because of earthquake 371 B.C., it was on the shoreline, right where it is now, on the shoreline, the ruins a mile from the shoreline, in twenty feet of water, which went under over a thousand years before, were obviously submerged by the sea level rise from the end of the Ice Age.

I bet Helike on the shoreline was built circa 1300 B.C., after the sea level rise at the end of the Ice Age, check that out Walter.

Where is the historical account of when and how Herakleion was submerged?

And Walter, since when does a tsunami cause land to go permanently under water?
 
IceAgeCivilizations:

You are using Plato's stories as historic fact. Plato as had Socrates relate accounts of the afterlife and various other stories. If you assume that Atlantis was factual, presumably you also assume that the retelling of the afterlife was similarly as well founded?
 
Several corrections to Ice Ages post:

Ancient Helike is now at the shoreline; 2,300 years ago, after it sank beneath the waves, it was quite a ways away from the new shoreline that formed after the land and city subsided. The accounts all show that the tourists (including Eratosthenes, who noted the bronze statute sticking out of the water was a hazard to navigation) who viewed Helike's remains were in boats, way out to sea (whether 1/2 mile, 1/4 mile, 1 mile is not specified in my references), looking down through the waters at the former city below. Eventually, as it filled in with sediment, the sea formed a new shoreline further out to sea, and the former city is now in a shallow sediment-filled lagoon, again back at the edge of the sea.

While it is possible that the older Helike only slowly sank, rather than catastropically as did the newer Helike that is now in that lagoon, it appears probable that the older Helike suffered a similar fate. And, the dating of it is as a bronze-age city that sank TWO millenia prior to the sinking of the classical-Greek-era Helike circa 370 B.C., going under the water circa 2400 B.C. And if, as Ice Age claims, the seas rose some 400 feet circa 2,000 B.C. then one would expect that the older Helike would be well beneath the waves, not a mere 20 feet below as if the land subsided during an earthquake. All in all, the existence of the older Helike only 20 feet beneath the waves, and a mere 1 mile from the current shoreline, is strong evidence that it too suffered a fate similar to the Greek-era Helike of 370 B.C., catastropically sinking 20 feet or more during a major earthquake circa 2,400 B.C. It provides NO evidence for the Ice Age's glaciers suddenly and rapidly melting a mere 4,000 years ago, circa 2,000 B.C. with the seas rising some 400 feet in only a century or so, as claimed by Ice Age via his 'revelations'.

Google Herakleion for more information on its demise. In particular, go to www.ancientegyptmagazine.com for detailed information. It was founded circa 700 B.C., and thrived for 1400 years, then succumed to a major earthquake circa 700 AD. Proof of the late date that it sank into the sea via a major earthquake is evidenced by the Byzantine and Islamic coins recovered from the undersea site, situated some 4 miles from the current shoreline, and in 30 feet of water (and compare that with the ancient ancient Helike which is only 1 mile from shore in only 20 feet of water) which coins would not have been minted prior to the founding of Islam in the 7th century A.D. Further proof that it was not a slow subsidence, but a catastrophic submergence like at Helike, is the large amount of gold coins, jewelery, etc. that has been found - not something people would leave behind as they exclaimed how the sea was slowly rising one inch per week (400 feet per century, Ice Age's claimed rate for the sea level rise).

So, now that we've completely shot down your theory that these sunken Mediterranean cities were sunk due to ice-age melt-down, are you going to wake up and smell the roses (or is that coffee)?
 
A few coins from a ship? Ahahahaha.

Alexandria was built because there was no port there, and if the port city of Herakleion did sink into the sea at 700 A.D., don't you suppose that somebody would have recorded this event?

Plato said that in the old days, when the Greeks were fighting the Atlantic power in trireme ships, much of Greece, as well as Atlantis, was submerged by the sea.
 
better is: http://www.ancientegyptmagazine.com/underseacities02.htm

"But Goddio deserves a big round of applause for the discovery of Herakleion. "We found an intact city frozen in time," said Goddio. Only the people are now replaced by creatures of the sea.

So far there has never been archaeological evidence found to prove the existence of Herakleion, although historians knew of the once flourishing city. Herakleion's construction began in the 7th or 6th century BC, during the waning days of the Pharaohs. In the 6th or 7th century AD it sunk, probably due to major earthquakes, according to Goddio. "We are certain about the time, because our team discovered Byzantine and Islamic coins and jewellery dating back to this epoch."

Herodotus, the Greek historian, raved about the Hercules temple in Herakleion during his visit to Egypt in 450 BC. Greek mythology tells us that Menelaos, King of Sparta, rested in Herakleion after recapturing his wife Helen from Paris in Troy. While Strabo described the location and lauded the luxurious lifestyle of the city, Seneca condemned their lax morals.

Today, within the sunken ancient city walls of Herakleion, which stretch over 90m in length, one finds remarkably well preserved ruins of temples, houses, ancient streets, sphinxes, huge statues, including a basalt statue of the goddess Isis, as well as coins, jewellery and the port infrastructure. Around two kilometres off the coast lie the foundations of the sister cities Menouthis and Canopus with magnificent statues and temples, dedicated to the goddess Isis and the gods Serapis and Anubis.



Ancient Egypt Magazine

Issue Two - July / August 2000

Undersea Cities Pharoahs of the Sun Ramesses the Great
Finding Pharaoh Ancient Temples Travellers Tales
A Wealth of Knowledge Editor's Column Netfishing

Cities of Pharaonic Times Discovered Under the Sea

Claudia Haj Ali reports from Alexandria

Photographs by Cristoph Gerigk - courtesy of Salaction PR

It is a ghost town submerged in the sea. Buried under mud are jewels and golden coins, temples and colossal statues rise from the seabed with bronze artefacts scattered throughout. The legendary city Herakleion has been rediscovered thanks to the French underwater archaeologist Franck Goddio, who is still shocked about his discovery: "Herakleion was completely forgotten. No one ever thought it could be a full six kilometres off the coast of Egypt, slumbering at a depth of ten metres".

With the discovery of Herakleion in the bay of Aboukir, north of Alexandria, the 53 year old Frenchman made worldwide headlines once again. "We knew from the beginning that we were searching for three cities. We had already found Menouthis and Canopus, the sister cities, a couple of years ago. Menouthis was exciting and beautiful, but when we came across Herakleion, it was like a dream."

Last year Goddio made international news with the discovery of Napoleon's sunken fleet in Aboukir, which Admiral Nelson of the British fleet had destroyed in 1798. The tall, slender and boyish Frenchman gained fame when he declared he had found the foundations of Cleopatra's (51-30 BC) palace.

His high tech expedition sponsored by the Hilti foundation was critically observed by one of the greatest living scientists specialising in Alexandrian studies, Jean-Yves Empereur.

Empereur and other notable scientists agreed that Goddio's excavation of Alexandria's harbour was a submerged building in what was likely a royal quarter, but nothing that conclusively connected it with the legendary queen. Goddio's story turned out to be a public relations flop. "If they had found a skirt, they would have called it the skirt of Cleopatra," mocked Empereur.

Until Alexandria was built in 331 BC, Herakleion served as a pilgrimage
site, a major port, a customs zone and Egypt's gateway to the world. But
Alexandria's economic surge ruined Herakleion including its sister cities,
which were built at one of the mouths of the Nile."
 
Last edited:
So what's so hard to understand?

Herodotus, the Greek historian, visited Herakleion 450 years before the birth of Jesus (450 B.C. or 450 B.C.E., or 2456 B.P. in 2006 A.D.). Approximately119 years later, the Greek conqueror Alexander founded a new port city quite a few miles away, including directing the construction of its fabled lighthouse (one of the 7 wonders of the ancient world), and it was named, quite naturally, Alexandria. Herakleion lost dominance as Alexandria ascended in fame. Then, in about 700 A.D. (1306 B.P.) a major earthquake struck the loose-moraled city of Herakleion, sinking it some 30 feet. Even Alexandria was severely impacted, with it sinking somewhat too (though not as far). The lighthouse toppled during that major quake (and yes, we have records of that quake), and its remains were also recently found, as well as other parts of Alexandria that went under the water.

So, once again your comments are in error. Alexandria was founded in spite of the fact of the existence of Herakleion, which was a thriving port city at the time. Alexandria was in a better location. Remember the three prime rules of real-estate; "location, location, location". I would imagine that Herakleion, being on the alluvial fan of the Nile, was subject to sinking anyway, and they were likely always having to bring in fill to raise the area, and every little earthquake likely sank it lower somewhat. ALexander, with his fantastic staff of engineers at his disposal, recognized that problem, and decided to build a port city at a superior location, once he conquered Egypt. You seem to think that Egypt didn't have any port cities prior to Alexander conquering Egypt, based on your post.

Now, get real, read the information, and figure it out. Come on, we know you can do it.
 
Herodotus went to Egypt, where he HEARD about Herakleion.

Location, location, location? Ahahaha, Herakleion was on the Canopic branch of the Nile when it was actually flowing strongly, for upriver traffic from there, and that was during the Ice Age, when there was much more rainfall in Egypt, do you really think Giza was the parched desert which it is today when they were building the GP, why would they build in the middle of a huge sandbox?

So when do you say Herakleion went under, Walter? First you say it was 700 A.D., now you say it was around the time of Alexander, as you "would imagine," so get your story straight.
 
Walter L. Wagner said:
Visitor:
While it is safe to predict that LA will suffer additional earthquakes in the future, via the San Andreas fault and all the other faults in that region, I don't see any evidence that it should drop low enough to sink into the sea. It's remained high above the sea for millions of years, and the only time that region was under the sea was during the periods of time that the Ice Age glaciers were completely melted. Should the melt-down continue, LA might well be below sea level in a few millenia.
Click to expand...

Walter, thanks for replying.

While it would always be easier if tangible evidence was available for my claims, especially one like this that could make a difference in the survival of so many lives.
I can only site USGS warnings and the likes for "visible" proof, and they have been putting them out for so many years now, people think it's like the little boy crying wolf.
They pay about as much attention in California to earthquake warnings as we do in Kansas to tornado sirens going off.

"Gets the kids honey.....put em' in the front the camera so we can get their picture with the twister"...
"Look at that wedge, it's beautiful...it must be an F-4 a half-mile wide"......
Scenes like this that could have been right out of the movie "Twister" are everyday events were I come from.
They pratically filmed parts of the movie in my backyard......one of the opening scenes shows them complaining "Be careful how you're folding that map, you put a crease right through Wichita."
So yeah, I can imagine how much they're really listening to those earthquake warnings in California right now......

I don't know what it is about these type things that draws us....like moths to the flame.
Maybe somewhere way down deep in the human psyche we believe that if one of those monstrosities of nature takes our life, we won't actually be committing suicide and all the pain will stop.
Maybe that's why people stay in California.

But I do have proof, I almost wouldn't have the hard drive space with 40 gigs to copy in text alone all the supernatural discernment and the intricate details this prophet I am referring to told people about their personal lives.

It's all here recorded from over 1100 live meetings, where you can hear the Holy Spirit's discernment of people's lives revealing their most secret sins so incriminating and personal, He would have to push away the microphone sometimes and whisper to them privately the things that God revealed and you can hear the blood curdling screams they make that tell in no uncertain terms the visions were correct.
http://www.nathan.co.za/sermons.asp

He stood in downtown L A. in 1965, and said there would be sharks swimming in that very spot.
People take things he said out of context, or repeat offhand comments he made just as a man, and try to say they didn't happen.
But when he said "thus saith the Lord" referring to the visions the Lord had given Him......it is only a mater of time.

He made other comments referring to when this would happen.
But, unless you want to spend the next twenty years listening to all the live recordings between two to six hours in length each......
You could just take my word for it.
Or.....(If you follow the link above - then click on 1965 sermons - and click on "The Choosing of a Bride" )....that will allow you to listen to the meeting in L.A. were he made the statement.
That will save you a few years if you were going to look anyway.

This still may not prove anything to some.....the discernments I talked about are at the end of the older meetings in the prayer lines for the sick.
"Certain" people would not believe you had cut off their nose, if you put it in their hand.
I know we've got Bennie Hinns and such on T.V. now trying to do the same thing.....and I've explained in detail on the "Religion" thread here recently how that works.
But there is a genuine and there are those that impersonate the genuine.
You can't counterfeit a dollar bill, until a dollar bill first existed to counterfeit.
This is the original they are all trying to measure up to.
Read from the Book "All things are Possible" by David Edwin Harrell, Jr..
http://www.biblebelievers.org/allthing.htm
This book was written by a University Professor that was not even a Christian at the time.
On Page 25 he states...

"The healing revival that erupted in 1947 thrust into positions of world-wide prominence a group of unsuspecting men. Chapter 3 discusses the two men who first came to the forefront-the two giants of the healing revival, William Branham and Oral Roberts. They were remarkably different personalities, but they quickly recognized one another as the premier leaders of the revival."
"Most of the participants of the revival looked upon Branham as its initiator. Out of his massive union meetings in 1947 spread reports of hundreds of miracles and marvels. Branham seemed an unlikely leader....his preaching was halting and simple beyond belief. But William Branham became a prophet to a generation. A small, meek, middle-aged man with piercing eyes, he held audiences spellbound with tales of constant communication with God and angels. Night after night, before thousands of awed believers he discerned the diseases of the sick and pronounced them healed."

If I could compel you to believe anything I've ever said as true and you have anyone you care about in California......get them out.
 
Last edited:
IceAgeCivilizations, assuming that I am not on your ignore list, you might well be able to anticipate what I am about to say. I will say it anyway:

Are you saying that the tree ring records actually go back no further than 3500 years, and that this is because trees consistently show more than one early/late growth couplet per year - even deciduous trees? That's what you seem to be saying. You have also said that pollen grains in lake sediments appear older because of a volcanism-related (for which evidence is still not forthcoming) influx of C-12 (or N-14?) around 3500 years ago. Must we believe that these factors, as well as the deposition of multiple sediment laminae per year, combine so perfectly so as to make a <3500 year record appear to stretch to 10,000 years or so?

What igneous intrusives are you talking about?
Click to expand...

Granites are well represented in the Himalayas. They form when magma cools very slowly, deep beneath the surface.

"Slump and flow structures" are often the foothills of the ranges.
Click to expand...

If possible, please could you post some pictures or links to these formations, and also to the folded units which have no tension gashes (I assume you realise that not all folds develop these - if the temperature and depth of burial are sufficient, rock will behave too plastically).

A further question: as a geology graduate, I am sure that you know that sediments become lithified by a number of processes collectively termed 'diagenesis'. These occur largely after burial. So I am interested to know how you think the sediments, after undergoing deformation while still unconsolidated, are solid rock now, after 3500 years of subaerial exposure.
 
Last edited:
So you think the mountain ranges were twice as big, lots o' luck.

So what that granites take time to cool?

I never said the trees go back 3500 years, and tree rings are not necessarily annual, and multiple laminae per year, or weeks, or days, yes, depends on the environment.
 
Making stuff up once again, huh? I gather that lying when it benefits your religion is not a sin in your religon.

This is beginning to sound like broken record, but
Cite
Your
Sources.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top