Does Omniscience Limit Free Will?

Dywyddyr said:
Ridiculously false example.
For one you do NOT know. You have a good idea. You have a range of probabilities which are heavily weighted toward what you think you know he will do.

For the hard of thinking I'll run through it one more time:
For something to be known it must be true. I.e. not subject to probability but ineluctably, irrevocably true. Therefore there cannot be any other option than the one that is known.
If god knows you will choose option A then you cannot ever, under any circumstance choose B. If the future is known (as it must be with omniscience) then all we are doing is following a pre-written script that we ourselves are unaware of. The fact that we are unaware of the script is what gives us the illusion of free will. The fact that god knows means we don't.
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A pre-written script that allows for free-will?

Really your argument doesn't seem to follow as knowledge is not the truth-maker but our choices are.
 
Dywyddyr said:
Yeah, the way you can't talk about light without talking about dark.
But if you have a totality of one then there's an absence of the other.
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ah..but that brings up an issue of partiality..its not about one or the other,but both..

in regards to human nature the extreme tends to be not good,to be either lawful good or lawful evil would cause problems,the best answers tend to lie in the middle..(hitler being lawful evil,crusades/inquisition being lawful good)

the answer to the question of the OP, lies in the middle..
the answer cannot be yes or no.
---
If God were to tell you what choice you would make at 7:15 Saturday morning,would you still make that choice?
 
Dywyddyr,

If god knows you will choose option A then you cannot ever, under any circumstance choose B.
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You're not looking at HOW God could possibly know that you will choose A, without predetermination. He either:

a. knows without calculation
b. can caluclate every motion of every moment, in relation to everything

If 'b', then you are free to change your mind as often as you like, and
God will instantly know the outcome through calculation.

If 'a' then you may have a point.


jan.
 
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NMSquirrel said:
being an atheist, in and of itself is not a bad thing..

but your use of the term in that statement is more of an Anti-theist, atheists have no desire to badmouth God or to convert believers into unbelief, this is the job of the Anti-theist..(notice how similar this word is to AntiChrist?)

as far as Dyw goes..
annoying as F*ck..specially when he plays the "your wrong" or "no" card..
(what makes him so special..)
but he does honor the truth.(which IMO is his saving grace)
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While it may be true of Dwy, or not. There are different ways to bad mouth God, and convert believers into non-believers without saying it.

jan.
 
Does anyone have any comments to this:


Mind Over Matter said:
There is a huge difference between knowing what you will do and controlling what you will do.
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As far as definitions go:

If God is omnipotent, then He ultimately controls everything everyone does.
He not only knows everything everyone does, He also controls it.

If God is good and is always working toward our happiness, then there is no problem with Him being omniscient and omnipotent.

God's omniscience and omnipotence only become a problem if we believe or doubt that God is not good.
 
Jan Ardena said:
While it may be true of Dwy, or not. There are different ways to bad mouth God, and convert believers into non-believers without saying it.
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How can you talk of what qualifies for "badmouthing God" - when all you have is belief in God, not actual knowledge?
 
If you don't actually know God, then how can you talk about what God's actual qualities are?
 
Signal said:
If you don't actually know God, then how can you talk about what God's actual qualities are?
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Okay, I see where you're coming from.
I don't actually know you, but I have some idea of your qualities.


How can you talk of what qualifies for "badmouthing God" - when all you have is belief in God, not actual knowledge?
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I have knowledge of God, from scripture, and commentry.


jan.
 
Signal said:
Does anyone have any comments to this:




As far as definitions go:

If God is omnipotent, then He ultimately controls everything everyone does.
He not only knows everything everyone does, He also controls it.

If God is good and is always working toward our happiness, then there is no problem with Him being omniscient and omnipotent.

God's omniscience and omnipotence only become a problem if we believe or doubt that God is not good.
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God has control over material nature, we are dual natured spiritual and material. We have a ''minute'' amount of control due to our spiritual nature, which is qualitively the same as God, but are overwhelmed by material nature.

God's omniscience and/or omnipotence is not a problem, as in the great ocean of time, we spend less than a moment in any particular place.
Because you have certain understanding in this human form, you now have a choice.

jan.
 
Jan Ardena said:
Okay, I see where you're coming from.
I don't actually know you, but I have some idea of your qualities.


I have knowledge of God, from scripture, and commentry.
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How do you know that the things you read in scripture, really are about God?
Especially given the vriety of texts that claim or are claimed to be about God.


With people, you have some measure of feedback. But usually not with God. Usually, God doesn't check in to see whether you have the right idea of Him or not.
 
Jan Ardena said:
God has control over material nature, we are dual natured spiritual and material. We have a ''minute'' amount of control due to our spiritual nature, which is qualitively the same as God, but are overwhelmed by material nature.

God's omniscience and/or omnipotence is not a problem, as in the great ocean of time, we spend less than a moment in any particular place.
Because you have certain understanding in this human form, you now have a choice.
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This is just one of many theories.
 
Signal said:
How do you know that the things you read in scripture, really are about God?
Especially given the vriety of texts that claim or are claimed to be about God.


With people, you have some measure of feedback. But usually not with God. Usually, God doesn't check in to see whether you have the right idea of Him or not.
Click to expand...


I don't know that they are really about God, initially, it make sense at first,
then your interest begins to develop. As this increases you're belief develops.
There are points in your existence where reality keeps some ideas of belief in check. Then you add this to you discriminatory ability. So it is the coming together of every aspect of your life that strengthens your belief.
And that is before you start to regulate your senses, at which point reality really kicks you in the face.

There are things about God that you have to accept, such His Absoluteness, His Trancendental nature, His Supremecy, and so on. This is how you gain understanding. Of course we have a choice, and we don't have to.

In some cases, one can know a person better by observing their actions in different circumstances, than actually communicating with them. The knowledge one gains is not tainted by emotion or bias.


jan.
 
Jan Ardena said:
I don't know that they are really about God, initially, it make sense at first,
then your interest begins to develop. As this increases you're belief develops.
There are points in your existence where reality keeps some ideas of belief in check. Then you add this to you discriminatory ability. So it is the coming together of every aspect of your life that strengthens your belief.
And that is before you start to regulate your senses, at which point reality really kicks you in the face.

There are things about God that you have to accept, such His Absoluteness, His Trancendental nature, His Supremecy, and so on. This is how you gain understanding. Of course we have a choice, and we don't have to.

In some cases, one can know a person better by observing their actions in different circumstances, than actually communicating with them. The knowledge one gains is not tainted by emotion or bias.


jan.
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I don't believe in the you-have-to-be-humiliated-first-before-you-can-know-God doctrine, or the doctrine of "reality that kicks people in the face."
That is the kind of reasoning for dogs and mokeys. :p (No offense intended for the animal dogs and monkeys.)
 
Signal said:
I don't believe in the you-have-to-be-humiliated-first-before-you-can-know-God doctrine, or the doctrine of "reality that kicks people in the face."
That is the kind of reasoning for dogs and mokeys. :p (No offense intended for the animal dogs and monkeys.)
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I don't believe i fully grasp what youi mean.

jan.
 
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