Does Omniscience Limit Free Will?

[kx000]

Please try to keep up. There was (and is) no mention whatsoever of manipulation.


An outcome that was pre-ordained and that we could never alter.

We can't alter what has not happened, or what has already happened. I don't understand your hate for God. We know the world will end in tribulation, it has not happened yet, and we know how it is going to happen... $1,000,000 says we do diddly squat to prevent the end time. Our free will will lead to the destruction of many.

 

[Dywyddyr]

We can't alter what has not happened, or what has already happened.

Yup. Agreed. What's your point?

I don't understand your hate for God.

And I can't understand why you persist in making stupid assumptions of this sort.

We know the world will end in tribulation

No we don't.

and we know how it is going to happen

No we don't.

Do you have anything to say with regard to the topic?
I just wondered...

 

[gmilam]

Did Judas have free will? I mean, the entire salvation of the human race depended on Judas betraying Jesus. Could Judas have chosen otherwise?

 

[Believe]

Apart from the fact that you could not choose otherwise. That effectively means no choice. If they could choose otherwise then you would not know beforehand what they were going to pick.


If you KNOW what they will choose (i.e it is true that they WILL choose that) then they did not actually have a choice. It is TRUE that they will choose X then they cannot possibly choose anything else.


Yes it does.

You argue semantics and interpretation (as do I), this argument is forever a nu uh, yes huh.

The argument is designed to play on peoples pride.

You argue logical fallacies as I pointed out.

You say this doesn't work:

As another example, my friend Steve is a large man who loves pastry. At a party I offer him a tray of cookies. Half of the cookies are Nabisco Wafers. The other half are Double Stuffed Oreos. I know which cookies Steve is going to take. I didn't control him. Knowledge is the key - not control.

But then when I say this:

I.E. What you are saying effectively is that if I ask someone to choose red or blue, left or right, predator or aliens , and then I know the answer because they tell it to me (in other words they made the choice), that they did not have a choice in the matter.

You say this:

If you KNOW what they will choose (i.e it is true that they WILL choose that) then they did not actually have a choice. It is TRUE that they will choose X then they cannot possibly choose anything else.

But if the guys friend fricking HATES wafers and loves oreos you could say that you KNOW that he would choose as such. Again a CHOICE WAS MADE, it was just easy to guess. Knowing the future DOES mean that the future is locked in place, but it does not mean that choices were not made. How does such a leap of logic even happen? This tired argument makes about as much sense as the bartender in this comic:

http://comixed.memebase.com/2011/09/21/koma-comic-strip-logic-tldr-but-great/

Please, stop arguing the point for the sake of argument. Knowing the outcome of a choice does not mean that the choice was not made.

 

[kx000]

Did Judas have free will? I mean, the entire salvation of the human race depended on Judas betraying Jesus. Could Judas have chosen otherwise?

He who hath a ear let him hear what the LORD saith unto the church.

Christian Church

 

[Dywyddyr]

I know which cookies Steve is going to take.

One more time. NO. You do not know.
You can make an educated guess. He may turn everything down. He may die on the spot. He may decide to change his tastes.

But if the guys friend fricking HATES wafers and loves oreos you could say that you KNOW that he would choose as such. Again a CHOICE WAS MADE, it was just easy to guess.

See? You yourself said "guess". You did not infallibly know that he would do so.

Knowing the future DOES mean that the future is locked in place, but it does not mean that choices were not made.

If the future is locked how can choices be made?

Please, stop arguing the point for the sake of argument.

Please stop making assumptions as vapid as those of knowledge91.

Knowing the outcome of a choice does not mean that the choice was not made.

If a choice can be made then the outcome cannot be known. It can only be estimated.
If it is known then there can be no option otherwise.

 

[gmilam]

He who hath a ear let him hear what the LORD saith unto the church.

Christian Church

You claim the bible is BS, yet you keep referencing it. Do you have a point?

 

[wynn]

There is a huge difference between knowing what you will do and controlling what you will do.

As far as definitions go:

If God is omnipotent, then He ultimately controls everything everyone does.
He not only knows everything everyone does, He also controls it.

If God is good and is always working toward our happiness, then there is no problem with Him being omniscient and omnipotent.

God's omniscience and omnipotence only become a problem if we believe or doubt that God is not good.

 

[kx000]

As far as definitions go:

If God is omnipotent, then He ultimately controls everything everyone does.
He not only knows everything everyone does, He also controls it.

If God is good and is always working toward our happiness, then there is no problem with Him being omniscient and omnipotent.

God's omniscience and omnipotence only become a problem if we believe or doubt that God is not good.

Not necessarily everyones happiness, only people like He and I.

 

[wynn]

Knowing the outcome of a choice does not mean that the choice was not made.

Yes and no:

From an external perspective, no choice was made.
From an external perspective, someone's omniscience implies that everything is predetermined, and thus there is no free will.

From the internal perspective, a choice was made.
Being non-omniscient, we have the impression that we can make choices.


The question is, which perspective will we take, and why.

 

[Dywyddyr]

He who hath a ear let him hear what the LORD saith unto the church.
Christian Church

Ooh, I think you just avoided answering the question.

Not necessarily everyones happiness, only people like He and I.

Yeah? How do you know? Oh wait. You don't know, you just believe.

 

[NMSquirrel]

. You are the last person on this forum to speak about anything religious, as you have proven over and over you have no faith, there for no valuable input..

nobody is perfect..
most of your argument is true about who he is..but your conclusion is not related...

Omniscient: is the capacity to know everything infinitely, or at least everything that can be known about a character including thoughts, feelings, life and the universe.

hehe..so there is an element of God putting Dyw in your path,you can choose to hate him for it..(dyw not god) or you can choose to utilize Dyw to sharpen your arguments..

Sorry, im right. Matthew 6:7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.
6:8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

um.."when you pray"
not "when an atheist speaks"

this verse is for the believer not the nonbeliever..I have met plenty of christians who can 'pray' eloquently and lengthy.this verse says keep it short and simple.

 

[Dywyddyr]

hehe..so there is an element of God putting Dyw in your path

Ooh, I like that.
I am the sword and arm of the lord!

Bwahahaha!

 

[NMSquirrel]

Ooh, I like that.
I am the sword and arm of the lord!

Bwahahaha!

careful..next thing you know,you will be a believer..
(this statement in no way implies a conformity to current religious beliefs.)

 

[Believe]

One more time. NO. You do not know.
You can make an educated guess. He may turn everything down. He may die on the spot. He may decide to change his tastes.


See? You yourself said "guess". You did not infallibly know that he would do so.


If the future is locked how can choices be made?


Please stop making assumptions as vapid as those of knowledge91.


If a choice can be made then the outcome cannot be known. It can only be estimated.
If it is known then there can be no option otherwise.

Again I disagree, you say if the future is locked how can choices be made. Explain to me how exactly the future being locked prevents choices from being made? I.E. How did we get to the future without making choices?

Basically, we have a difference of perspective here. I say that knowing the outcome of choice does not mean that a choice was not made, you say it does. My argument explains itself (at least I think it does, if it doesn't I hope I explained it well enough earlier, feel free ask if you have questions), please explain yours in a different way because right now it really seems like your the bartender.

I guess what I'm asking is why you believe that if the outcome of a choice is known, that there was no choice, and how that is any different from the cookie example I elaborated on. You said earlier its because you don't know, but if you believe you know, and your RIGHT, is that not the same as knowing especially if you were certain (i.e. no doubt)?

 

[Believe]

hehe..so there is an element of God putting Dyw in your path,you can choose to hate him for it..(dyw not god) or you can choose to utilize Dyw to sharpen your arguments..

He is an amazing wet stone, I'll give him that .

 

[kx000]

nobody is perfect..
most of your argument is true about who he is..but your conclusion is not related...

My conclusion would be?

 

[Dywyddyr]

Again I disagree, you say if the future is locked how can choices be made. Explain to me how exactly the future being locked prevents choices from being made? I.E. How did we get to the future without making choices?

If the future is locked then those "choices" are also locked. The path is fixed.

You said earlier its because you don't know, but if you believe you know, and your RIGHT, is that not the same as knowing especially if you were certain (i.e. no doubt)?

No, because despite your (my/ whoever's) personal certainty it's only a belief until the choice is made.

Basically, we have a difference of perspective here. I say that knowing the outcome of choice does not mean that a choice was not made, you say it does. My argument explains itself (at least I think it does, if it doesn't I hope I explained it well enough earlier, feel free ask if you have questions), please explain yours in a different way because right now it really seems like your the bartender.

I guess what I'm asking is why you believe that if the outcome of a choice is known, that there was no choice, and how that is any different from the cookie example I elaborated on.

For something to be knowledge it must be true. If it's true then we can't make any other choice, as that would mean the knowledge wasn't in fact knowledge.
Any "choice" was an illusion (see Signal's post). We may think we had a choice whereas we didn't and couldn't have gone any other way than the one we did.

 

[NMSquirrel]

My conclusion would be?

How so? Explain to me how YOU know? You are the last person on this forum to speak about anything religious, as you have proven over and over you have no faith, there for no valuable input.

no valuable input.

 

[Me-Ki-Gal]

Addressed to whom?

Because if it's addressed to me I suggest you re-read what I wrote.

No not you . MandM that is who . Your kind of self conscious there sport . I reread what you wrote anyway . Just encase I miss something. Cause sometimes you say some really good stuff