Does God Think?

[Varda]

varda: superluminal has been here for nearly a year, he one of the most interesting people on these forums, he is most certainly not a troll, you will have to apologise for that remark, just because you state something stupid and he questions it he's a troll. he has made 3,750 posts, and started some of the most liveliest thought provoking threads, he's the last person who should be refered to as a troll.
so take your foot out of your mouth and apologise.

i'll only apologise because his last post was so nice
i think it is a very troll like attitude to go in a thread to tell people what they should be talking about... he said he'll discuss whatever he wants didnt he? well, so will I

if he has no tolerance for these subjects, he should stay away from the religion forum... i mean... he was the first person to reply to the thread... he saw the title and hurried in.. does that make any sense?

anyway, it doesnt matter
sorry superluminal... im new here

i bet he's american

 

[Varda]

Ohhh yes, without it, math wouldn't make any sense.

well, it only exists in math...
even nothing is something

 

[Varda]

To get back on topic:
If God is omniscient but does not think, can God think? If so, has God ever thought and what would prompt a being that exists in all time to think? If not, then is this proof that God does not Exist? Is God a being, or simply the totality of all things?

yes please... to the topic

i believe that an omniscient god cannot thing because there is nothing to which apply thought... it would be more like simply acessing information, like a computer acessing information in its memory

and that due to that, there would be no point in any attempt of comunication to god... so, if god is omniscient he doesn't think, and therefore religion is meaningless


do you think that thought is necessary for the existence of a mind and a consciousness?

 

[Varda]

To get back to what Varda was trying to say, hypothetically…

“If the thought is a process for manipulating information with the objective of making decisions, solving problems, forming concepts etc; and god is omniscient, so he doesn't need to think. Does that make sense?”

* Without conscious thought there is nothing. As humans we are bound to this reality. Apart from dreamless sleep, we are continuously more or less aware. If god does not need to think, what is the point of god? I suppose an omniscient being could be thinking all possible thoughts simultaneously. A sort of super awareness, or quantum awareness. I think this type of awareness would be outside our comprehension. Perhaps the closest we can get to this state, is zen meditation where zazen (no mind) is achieved. But this is still a conscious process of reducing awareness. Damn this human box!

i think that there is nothing left to the omniscient god besides being an observer... that merely observes everything that there ever was and will be at the same time... and doesn't influenciate the events, since all the decisions have already been made

now, if having no thoughts is the same as having no counsciousness or perception or mind, what are the implications of that?

 

[Kibbles]

do you think that thought is necessary for the existence of a mind and a consciousness?

I actually have no idea bout that one.

An omniscient God is irrelevant? Is this the idea?

 

[Varda]

by exploring the possible limitations of A question being asked...ie., what do we MEAN by 'GOD'? what do we MEAN by 'think'

usually when we tink--say working out a poblem we tink in a linear fashion---if i do a, then that means b---then i wll do c, then d, and check on a agin, etc. there can be different permutations, but it is like point to point. ?
but if you see hoe bodies grow, trees grow etc. PROCESS. everyting is happening at ONCE

by atributing omnisciency to god, we clearly gave him an atribute that is not human... or male ... this is exactly what we are discussing... isn't it?

 

[Cottontop3000]

by atributing omnisciency to god, we clearly gave him an atribute that is not human... or male ... this is exactly what we are discussing... isn't it?

Yeah, but it's impossible to really know what "omniscience" would be like? Don't forget god is "supposed" to be all the other omni's too. Omnipotent, omnipresent, and whatever the others are. I forget. I think you need to consider them too. For example, how can an omnipotent god not think?

 

[Varda]

I actually have no idea bout that one.

An omniscient God is irrelevant? Is this the idea?

that depends on what is considered to be irrelevant... i believe that an omniscient god would have no influence at all on us/the universe

 

[Varda]

Yeah, but it's impossible to really know what "omniscience" would be like? Don't forget god is "supposed" to be all the other omni's too. Omnipotent, omnipresent, and whatever the others are. I forget. I think you need to consider them too. For example, how can an omnipotent god not think?

well, i only put omnisciency there because i think that if you put the other atributes together, one ends up nulling the other
an omnipotent god can't be omniscient, and an omniscient god can't be omnipotent

 

[Mythbuster]

Does he have a penis ?
If so, my God has a bigger dick than your God !

 

[Cottontop3000]

well, i only put omnisciency there because i think that if you put the other atributes together, one ends up nulling the other
an omnipotent god can't be omniscient, and an omniscient god can't be omnipotent

Good point. That's why I don't think about this kind of stuff much anymore. You can go in circles.

 

[Zappa]

I guess the point is, this is a really fun exercise if you haven't gone through it one billion fucking times. Have fun. I'm going to pet my IFSM (Invisible Flying Spaghetti Monster). Zzzzzz.

P.S.

Can somebody please explain to me why, after realizing that gods were invented to explain the terrifying mystery of the universe around us, we still feel the need to invoke that superstition? When everyone here has already admitted that there is zero evidence for or against a "mystical supreme universal consciousness"? Why? Why does the discussion of my IFSM rank any lower than discussions of the ISD (Invisible Sky Daddy)? Hmmm??? Whay are you all so afraid of???

Doesn't it strike you a bit funny that the universe gained the ability to observe itself? That we are that observing power?

Being in existence, having conscienceness, is too unexplainable to chalk up to science.

There are internal cues/questions that lead a person to ask if there is a god, such as; "holy shit, I exist. how odd. by what power am I here? certainly not my own."

The fact that you live, my dear superluminal, is wonderful. Being full of wonder. YOU ARE ALIVE. You, a creature of consciousness, able to observe the unconscious universe.

And yet your consciousness is derived from the unconscious universe. You are a product of stars.

You cannot see how this is hard to believe? That everything that we are, our consciousness, came from everything that we aren't - the unconscious?

 

[Kibbles]

well, i only put omnisciency there because i think that if you put the other atributes together, one ends up nulling the other
an omnipotent god can't be omniscient, and an omniscient god can't be omnipotent

I know one of my professors mentioned this one before but could you run this by me again?

 

[Cottontop3000]

I know one of my professors mentioned this one before but could you run this by me again?

Well, the way I think about it, if a god is omnipotent, or all powerful, it implies action, using power to do something. If a god is also omniscient, and knows everything, why would he/she/it do anything that requires power, and thus action through thought (following with what has been said by Varda in this thread). I don't know if that makes sense, but cirlces are what I see.

 

[stretched]

Quote duendy:
“but if you see hoe bodies grow, trees grow etc. PROCESS. everyting is happening at ONCE”

* Not intending to be silly, but as far as cells, etc, multiply, and the tree grows from an acorn into a shoot, into a tree, is this not linear? All the processes that create the growth may be holistic, but the progressive growth seems linear. But I am keen to hear more of your thinking duendy, explain more.

 

[stretched]

I love my "human box", pokey.

* Dagnabit!

 

[Kibbles]

Well, the way I think about it, if a god is omnipotent, or all powerful, it implies action, using power to do something. If a god is also omniscient, and knows everything, why would he/she/it do anything that requires power, and thus action through thought (following with what has been said by Varda in this thread). I don't know if that makes sense, but cirlces are what I see.

Ok. That just flew by me...

So if a God is Omniscient, it cannot be Omnipotent because what?

 

[Cottontop3000]

Ok. That just flew by me...

So if a God is Omniscient, it cannot be Omnipotent because what?

I don't know if I can do this. I may be wrong, too. 1.) If you theorize that an omniscient god does not require thought because it knows all, then it doesn't think. 2.) Some would say that there is a correlation between thought and action, that you can't have thought without action. 3.) Omnipotence requires action, for what is power without action. 4.) Therefore, a god couldn't be omnipotent and omniscient at the same time. They would nullify each other. How can you act, if you do not think?

Does that make any sense at all?

 

[Kibbles]

I don't know if I can do this. I may be wrong, too. 1.) If you theorize that an omniscient god does not require thought because it knows all, then it doesn't think. 2.) Some would say that there is a correlation between thought and action, that you can't have thought without action. 3.) Omnipotence requires action, for what is power without action. 4.) Therefore, a god couldn't be omnipotent and omniscient at the same time. They would nullify each other. How can you act, if you do not think?

Does that make any sense at all?

Some, though it doesn't seem to naturally follow, like something's being skipped.

Omniscience means that God does not Think.
You can't have thought without action...

But you can have action without thought?

What? That's definitely not it.

 

[stretched]

Quote Varda:
“do you think that thought is necessary for the existence of a mind and a consciousness?”

* I suppose all I can look to for answers would be my own conscious experience. I continually think, and this manifests my perceived consciousness. I cannot imagine how consciousness could manifest without some self realising process. Perhaps if you use the word “mind” rather, then perhaps thought is not necessarily essential, as in a brain dead person or a comatose person. But then, we cannot know for sure that even in that state there is not some basic thought processes. We just cannot see them from our side.

Quote Varda:
“i think that there is nothing left to the omniscient god besides being an observer... that merely observes everything that there ever was and will be at the same time... and doesn't influenciate the events, since all the decisions have already been made”

* This is fine in principle, but begs the huge question: “What then is the point?” (yes i know, does there HAVE to be a point?) I observe the world around me every day, and I do not necessarily interact, but I continually draw conclusions regarding this data. Perhaps if my conclusions could manifest in actions without direct or willing intervention on my part, this concept can stand.

Quote Varda:
“now, if having no thoughts is the same as having no counsciousness or perception or mind, what are the implications of that?”

* Lets define “thoughts’ as “idea produced by mental activity: an idea, plan, conception, or opinion produced by mental activity” and consciousness as: “being awake and aware of surroundings: the state of being awake and aware of what is going on around you”

Hmmm. It seems switching the one off, nullifies the other. They go hand in hand. For example, a computer program can have information of which it is not aware, but this negates a description of “intelligence”. Thus if an omniscient god does not need to think to be aware of everything knowable, then would this god be “intelligent”? Mmmm. (that would explain a lot!)