perhaps. or perhaps they should talk to a lot of different people about it, but they should realize that talking to people isn't necessarily going to get them any closer to god, and that people don't make up the "terms", god does.
Does God make mistakes?
- Thread starter Alan McDougall
- Start date
perhaps. or perhaps they should talk to a lot of different people about it, but they should realize that talking to people isn't necessarily going to get them any closer to god, and that people don't make up the "terms", god does.
I think the Protestant stances are predictable outcomes of trying to reconcile the notions that God is omnibenevolent, that man has free will, and that there is eternal damnation.
One needn't be a theist to come to such conclusions as the Protestants did.
I think many atheists here are confused by such statements; it seems to me that they do not know that we are said to have two kinds of selves.
When a theist says "You hate God" - which "you" is that? The true one, the real one; or the false one? Another example: Lori likes to say we are greedy etc. Who is "we" here? "We", as we truly are in our pure state, or the we that we are when in the contaminated state?
I think theists should always clarify their use in such cases.
Are you arguing it?
because we're all in this together. it's all or nothing. the whole point of creation is communion. without that aspect of it, none of what we do really matters.
Says you!
"some", or "any" really. i just think it's something that should be more personal between an individual and god. i like hearing about other people's testimonies, and talking about god, but i don't think that should be the basis for any person to believe in or know god.
i could describe to you what my mother is like. but if you met my mom, you may have different opinions of her, and may understand her in a different way than i do because you have a different perspective. that doesn't mean she's two different people, but that i would have one understanding of her, and perhaps you would have another.
well otherwise it's just a big pile of manmade crap, and what the hell are we even talking about it for?
i would pat god on the back. i don't want sin in the world, so if sin causes death that's good with me. if sin causes suffering that's fine with me. you don't want the consequence to be attributable to the act. you want to blame god. and god has not been greedy with me...quite the opposite actually, as he has given me a lot...almost more than i thought i could handle at times. and it is torturous in a way because it causes you to fight against the nature and conditioning of your flesh.
if i had a child, and i knew that their behavior was hurting and killing people, then yes, i would provide a deterrent to that behavior. why would i do that? am i being mean and punishing? or am i being loving and unselfish? and am i, as a child's parent, responsible for doing such a thing? you could argue, you brought it into the world, then you're responsible. and if you're loving, responsible, and powerful, then you can not only deter this negative behavior, you can see that it ends forever.
You think having babies slaughtered is a good thing? You think sending unbelievers to hell to be painfully and psychologically tortured for eternity is helping you? Crazy and brutal stuff -
There was a mother in the town I live who killed her children because she believed God ordered her to. Is this okay too? I guess I'm trying to figure out how you think this is ridding the world of evil (killing babies per stories in the Bible)
Well it depends just what you had in mind to do to your child. But I'm not talking about your child murdering someone. When I asked would you intentionally inflict unbearable pain on your child just because they don't believe or behave the way you want them to- I didn't mean that they would harm anyone. Behave as in say not tithing to the church when the church told them to or believe that the Biblical God is hogwash, or made fun of a bald preacher- would you still then inflict unbearble pain upon them?
babies are slaughtered every day. every day babies are slaughtered on this earth. crazy and brutal. so are you saying that you find the bible to be realistic?
well i am talking about a child murdering someone. the wages of sin are death. all of it. because sin is in us...in our flesh, we die. and it's a genetic thing, and it's an all or nothing thing. you either get rid of it completely, or you don't get rid of it completely, and we die. i want to get rid of it completely. i don't want people to suffer anymore, and i trust the creator of the universe to know what's going on. we're talking about communion with god, and you want to split hairs?
if you don't want to experience unbearable pain then get with the program; it's called redemption. there is a new age coming where you are either going to be in or out, and until then it's just going to get worse and worse and worse...
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You people seem to think that a theist just swallows anything from the bible as the absolute truth from god
Here is a short article I wrote some time ago where I address that exact thing
Numbers Chapture 31?
I have great difficulty in rationalizing this chapter with a concept of a good loving God as depictured by the lord Jesus Christ. Someone help me please! The bible states that God is the same, yesterday, tomorrow and forever.
This does not seem to be the case if one analyses and compares the awful chapter 31 of the book on Numbers, in relation to the loving, forgiving, Father God, that the Lord Jesus presented in the four gospels. Answer this and I will be able to press on. Note I do not have much time left. I am so tired and weary now!
Love
Alan McDougall 14/7/2007
1) Verse: 2 the Lord said to Moses take vengeance on the Midianites. In direct contrast, Jesus said, forgive those who hate you and despitefully use you. It is easy to love those that love you, but I say love those that hate you. Vengeance is mine said the lord I will recompense. However, here God appears to go against his own word and commands Moses to take vengeance.
2) Verses: 3- 6 Make war and kill said the lord. This is a direct contradiction to Gods own commandment. Thou shalt not kill. Jesus said if a man strikes you on the one cheek turn and offer him the other and not to violence.
3) Verses: 6-13 here the armies of Israel go out and destroy, spoil, burn and steal and plunder on Gods command. In addition, they slaughter all the adult males however; this is not sufficient bloodletting slaughter to please Moses or God as we read from verse 14.
In contrast, Jesus said he that lives by the sword would die by the sword. The soldiers apparently somewhat kinder and merciful than Moses spared the woman and children much to Mosses disappointment and anger
4) Verse: 14 Moses was wroth (angry) with the officers. Why? Because they had not slaughtered THE WHOLE LOT, WOMAN, CHILDREN, like they had done to the adult males.
So what is sweet kind merciful Moses proposal? Verse: 15, He says now murder all the “little boys”. In ABSOLUTE contrast Jesus said blessed are the little children for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
For goodness sake is this the same merciful loving God depicted by Jesus. No this horrific story does not end yet. Moses goes on saying.” Kill all the woman” except those that have not had "sex with a man". How on earth in those remote primitive days were the soldiers to know which woman was a virgin and which were not?.
There was definitely no gynecologist way back in 300O B.C. WERE THERE? So to me they must on Moses command raped all the woman first and then murdered those who were not virgins. Why was it necessary to rape them all? Because a woman’s age does not necessarily indicate whether a woman is a virgin or not.
5) Now if any learned rational bible scholar can tell me that this is the same father God that is the same yesterday tomorrow and forever, I am all eyes and ears waiting for a logical explanation. You know if one takes out the title God and Moses and replaces them with Hitler and Rudolf Hess, no one would question that it was the work of the evil Hitler regime. Would they?
6) Alan McDougall 13/7/2007
Here is a short article I wrote some time ago where I address that exact thing
Numbers Chapture 31?
I have great difficulty in rationalizing this chapter with a concept of a good loving God as depictured by the lord Jesus Christ. Someone help me please! The bible states that God is the same, yesterday, tomorrow and forever.
This does not seem to be the case if one analyses and compares the awful chapter 31 of the book on Numbers, in relation to the loving, forgiving, Father God, that the Lord Jesus presented in the four gospels. Answer this and I will be able to press on. Note I do not have much time left. I am so tired and weary now!
Love
Alan McDougall 14/7/2007
1) Verse: 2 the Lord said to Moses take vengeance on the Midianites. In direct contrast, Jesus said, forgive those who hate you and despitefully use you. It is easy to love those that love you, but I say love those that hate you. Vengeance is mine said the lord I will recompense. However, here God appears to go against his own word and commands Moses to take vengeance.
2) Verses: 3- 6 Make war and kill said the lord. This is a direct contradiction to Gods own commandment. Thou shalt not kill. Jesus said if a man strikes you on the one cheek turn and offer him the other and not to violence.
3) Verses: 6-13 here the armies of Israel go out and destroy, spoil, burn and steal and plunder on Gods command. In addition, they slaughter all the adult males however; this is not sufficient bloodletting slaughter to please Moses or God as we read from verse 14.
In contrast, Jesus said he that lives by the sword would die by the sword. The soldiers apparently somewhat kinder and merciful than Moses spared the woman and children much to Mosses disappointment and anger
4) Verse: 14 Moses was wroth (angry) with the officers. Why? Because they had not slaughtered THE WHOLE LOT, WOMAN, CHILDREN, like they had done to the adult males.
So what is sweet kind merciful Moses proposal? Verse: 15, He says now murder all the “little boys”. In ABSOLUTE contrast Jesus said blessed are the little children for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
For goodness sake is this the same merciful loving God depicted by Jesus. No this horrific story does not end yet. Moses goes on saying.” Kill all the woman” except those that have not had "sex with a man". How on earth in those remote primitive days were the soldiers to know which woman was a virgin and which were not?.
There was definitely no gynecologist way back in 300O B.C. WERE THERE? So to me they must on Moses command raped all the woman first and then murdered those who were not virgins. Why was it necessary to rape them all? Because a woman’s age does not necessarily indicate whether a woman is a virgin or not.
5) Now if any learned rational bible scholar can tell me that this is the same father God that is the same yesterday tomorrow and forever, I am all eyes and ears waiting for a logical explanation. You know if one takes out the title God and Moses and replaces them with Hitler and Rudolf Hess, no one would question that it was the work of the evil Hitler regime. Would they?
6) Alan McDougall 13/7/2007
I am saying that the Biblical God directly ORDERED babies to be slaughtered. I am NOT talking about babies who are slaughtered today by sick people. Big difference. It’s not the same thing, Lori.
But I am not talking about a child murdering someone. The reason I’m not talking about a child murdering someone is because the Biblical God has killed for way less than that. Remember the bears he sent out and killed the 42 children who made fun of the bald prophet dude Elisha? Also killed the husband and wife Ananias and Saphira's because they lied and held some of the money they received from selling a plot of their own land instead of giving it to the church. God got angry and struck a man dead for touching his beloved ark because the man was trying to catch and save it. I am not comparing the world today with the Bible. I’m talking about stories of the Bible (the book you say you believe in) where it describes the things God had done period. Why am I talking about that? Because this is what you Christians base your whole belief on, yet choose to eliminate the brutal stuff for whatever reason.
If you don’t want people to suffer anymore then why do you think that bloodshed by God’s hand is okay at any time to anyone? (Again, I’m talking about God’s actions ONLY via the Bible stories)
I’m not splitting hairs. Christians believe the Bible but yet they don’t want to believe the bad stuff. It’s not called splitting hairs. I’m merely pointing out the stories that Christians ignore or excuse away in some form or another.
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Alan,
How can you pick and choose the stories of the Bible just because you don't want to accept the bad stuff? How do you know the loving and things you perceive good are true then? How do you know the story about Jesus is true then? Only good stuff is true?
Did you view the link that I put up on youtube where it references what Jesus says in Revelations?
Revelations 18-23
18"To the angel of the church in Thyatira write:
These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. 19I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first. 20Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.
Doesn't seem to be all that loving to me
How can you pick and choose the stories of the Bible just because you don't want to accept the bad stuff? How do you know the loving and things you perceive good are true then? How do you know the story about Jesus is true then? Only good stuff is true?
Did you view the link that I put up on youtube where it references what Jesus says in Revelations?
Revelations 18-23
18"To the angel of the church in Thyatira write:
These are the words of the Son of God, whose eyes are like blazing fire and whose feet are like burnished bronze. 19I know your deeds, your love and faith, your service and perseverance, and that you are now doing more than you did at first. 20Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols. 21I have given her time to repent of her immorality, but she is unwilling. 22So I will cast her on a bed of suffering, and I will make those who commit adultery with her suffer intensely, unless they repent of her ways. 23I will strike her children dead. Then all the churches will know that I am he who searches hearts and minds, and I will repay each of you according to your deeds.
Doesn't seem to be all that loving to me
You make a valid point I like his message to the Church of the Philadelphia better.I will have a look at the link and comeback with a comment, sorry for the oversight and not looking at the link suggested
if god makes the universe, and makes the laws in it, and makes us, and decides what the consequences of actions will be, then don't you see? if it's happening, god's ordered it.
no i don't, because this life is brutal! in fact, the brutality of it was what led me to seek god in the first place.
and you completely disregarded what i said about sin.
we are not talking about differing opinions, and hurt feelings, and mistakes. we are talking about a genetic flaw, that we need to have abolished from our body, that makes us suffer and die. and when removed, will restore communion with god and with each other, and we will not suffer and die anymore. this is serious.
because god is god, and i trust him. and being god and creating the universe and everything in it seems like a good reason to trust him. beyond that i trust god because of what he's done to me.
i'm not ignoring anything; i totally get it. i look around in the world, and i say, "yeah, that sounds right."
Well, how I see it is he’s an a-hole. That’s what I don’t think you understand that I’m saying. His “consequences” aka “hell” is an asshole thing of him to do man. How you can’t see that blows my mind.
Seriously, wouldn’t you think that a parent who killed a child for making fun of a bald man is an asshole?
Has nothing to do with what I’m talking about. Again, I’m only talking about the stories of the Bible
Because it wasn’t relevant to what I was talking about
I’m only talking about the stories in the Bible and how the Biblical God is brutal. Why would I want to break bread with a brutal God?
But the Biblical God’s acts are nothing but violent. Seriously, as I said before, write the stories down out of the Bible, take God’s name out of the stories and insert any other name in his place and ANYONE with half a heart would think his actions were no better than Charles Manson’s.
But I’m not talking about today. I’m talking about the stories in the Bible that describe God and his actions. Aren’t you tired of me saying that over and over? I am not going to change my focus or what I’m saying about that.
Well, how I see it is he’s an a-hole. That’s what I don’t think you understand that I’m saying. His “consequences” aka “hell” is an asshole thing of him to do man. How you can’t see that blows my mind.
Seriously, wouldn’t you think that a parent who killed a child for making fun of a bald man is an asshole?
Has nothing to do with what I’m talking about. Again, I’m only talking about the stories of the Bible
Because it wasn’t relevant to what I was talking about
I’m only talking about the stories in the Bible and how the Biblical God is brutal. Why would I want to break bread with a brutal God?
But the Biblical God’s acts are nothing but violent. Seriously, as I said before, write the stories down out of the Bible, take God’s name out of the stories and insert any other name in his place and ANYONE with half a heart would think his actions were no better than Charles Manson’s.
But I’m not talking about today. I’m talking about the stories in the Bible that describe God and his actions. Aren’t you tired of me saying that over and over? I am not going to change my focus or what I’m saying about that.
it's just like old times. :bawl:
are you saying god is not allowed to do what he wants to do?
you saying we are supposed to have no consequences for our actions?
or are you just saying the punishments should be more comfy...
is asshole the only way you can think of to describe a person..seems a little generic to me..asshole can mean anything..
because you cannot argue with a persons view of god outside the bible..it is a personal thing..different for each of us..and its hard to argue (effectively) against anothers perspective if you cannot see it..
because you want your opinion heard and not willing to listen to others opinions until someone agrees with you..
and maybe not even then..I am not going to change my focus or what I’m saying about that.
dude..you keep bringing up old testament arguements as an excuse..
are you worried that you did something you think god is gonna send you to hell for?
jesus came to earth to establish a new covenant with humanity, the old convenent was thrown out..
it is said ' if you follow the new covenant, there is no need for the law'
"But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away."
when i got to that last one,i realized how futile it is to argue with a non- believer..
Oh, I think a God could do whatever it wants. Do I think that a true loving
God would behave no better than Saddam or Manson? No
Do I think a loving God could not contain his/her emotions to the point he/she kills because they are angered by another’s actions? No.
Do I think a loving God would go out of its way to create a place so scary, so vile, so painfully unbearable and freaking psychologically torturing KNOWING that these souls he/she claims to love end up there? Are you nuts? No of course not.
BUT the Biblical God is described as those things and more dude. He’s rotten to the core.
As a parent would your goal be for your child to learn by killing them just because they made fun of some bald prophet? Where is the learning in that? Would you throw a fit to the point you couldn’t control your anger and just do them in? The Biblical God does. Why would you want to follow someone who is a brutal, manipulative lying baby killer?
More comfy? Hmm let’s see….kill the kid because they make fun of a bald dude or teach them via non-violence. You tell me which you think is more effective.
As I’ve said before he’s manipulative, a bully, a liar, a violent jerk. How’s that?
Here’s the deal. I don’t see how someone can embrace the Bible and have love for a violent God. You either believe the Bible is real or not. If it isn’t then why not choose a comic book hero to worship instead?
Nope. Not true. My only beef is with a violent God that Christians want to dress up as a loving hero. Like I said, either the Bible is true or it’s BS.
In the words of Jesus himself
Matthew 5:17-18
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.
God has given each human a complete fee will without any reservation. Being absolutely just if god intervened directly and stopped some depraved act he would have to intervene directly in every decision bad or good that we humans make, thus changing us into frightened robots