Did Jesus Suffer Enough?

[Lori_7]

i apologize gremmie for putting some very harsh words in your mouth, but this is the association i make...

there are obviously different opinions about whether or not it's ok to rape someone. and while we can spend our time debating these different opinions, people can/will continue to be raped.

as opposed to...

we're all on the same page regarding rape (duh), and we can spend our time doing other things, that don't hurt and degrade people, and find something much more pleasant to discuss. see?

you should come with us gremmie. it'll be fun, i promise. the koolaid's a little bitter, but it's well worth it.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Why didnt God jus create humans that way to begin wit... an skip all the horrors of life as we know it on earf.???

Originally Posted by Lori_7
if i had to guess, i'd say it's because you can't have knowledge without experience. ” ”

So God dont have human knowledge sinse hes never esperienced bein human.???

have you ever heard of a man named jesus? ”

Because ive herd of a man named Jesus... God has knolwedge of what its like to be raped/tortured an murdered as a child.???

clueless, god IS knowledge.

So what was the purpos of askin me if ive herd of a man named Jesus... lol.!!!

But oK... God is an esample of knowledge wit-out esperience (so much for you "theory" that knowledge requires esperience).!!!

Which begs the queston you chose to ignore:::

"why did God create the universe the way he did which unnecesarly makes human sufferin inevitable... unless this God is a monster.???"

...suffering is NOT inevitable.

In you'r own words:::

Lori---"there are obviously different opinions about whether or not it's ok to rape someone. and while we can spend our time debating these different opinions, people can/will continue to be raped."


Yep... God knew befor he even created 'em that Adam an Eve woud sin... God purposfully created them an ther surroundins in such a way that they had no choise but to eat the "apple"... an all the horrors of human esistence which follered was inevitable.!!!
---------------------

I thank a all-knowin all-powerful God coud turn us into door-knobs wit the knowledge/ability to preceive ourselfs as bein happy.!!!

i have no desire to be a door knob.

Which misses my pont:::

God has knowledge which didnt require that it com from esperience... an sinse God is all-knowin an all-powerful... not only coud he turn us into happy door-knobs... he coud also impart knowledge into us wit-out a necessity for us to esperience such horrors as bein burned to death or bein raped/tortured an murdered as a child.!!!

So whats you'r esplination... is God not all-knowin an all-powerful... or a monster... or what.???

 

[Skeptical]

What clueluss is talking about is the basic contradiction from the Christian model of deity.

Christians believe in a deity that is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent.

You do not need to look at this description terribly hard to realise it is incompatible with human existence.

An all-powerful, all-knowing God can give us any form of life. If he is also all loving and caring, then why condemn so many innocents to pain. Every year, millions of totally innocent children die in agony, from disease, accident or other causes. They are innocent and helpless. If God wants them in heaven, why kill them so cruelly?

The only answers are
1. There is no God
2. If God exists, he/she/it is quite different to the Christian model.

 

[Lori_7]

What clueluss is talking about is the basic contradiction from the Christian model of deity.

Christians believe in a deity that is omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent.

You do not need to look at this description terribly hard to realise it is incompatible with human existence.

An all-powerful, all-knowing God can give us any form of life. If he is also all loving and caring, then why condemn so many innocents to pain. Every year, millions of totally innocent children die in agony, from disease, accident or other causes. They are innocent and helpless. If God wants them in heaven, why kill them so cruelly?

The only answers are
1. There is no God
2. If God exists, he/she/it is quite different to the Christian model.

i don't think so. have you read the OT? it's pretty brutal, just like the human existence.

i think god want's an intelligent creation, that knows good from evil, and chooses good, and chooses to love and obey, of it's own free will.

 

[Lori_7]

Why didnt God jus create humans that way to begin wit... an skip all the horrors of life as we know it on earf.???



So God dont have human knowledge sinse hes never esperienced bein human.???



Because ive herd of a man named Jesus... God has knolwedge of what its like to be raped/tortured an murdered as a child.???



So what was the purpos of askin me if ive herd of a man named Jesus... lol.!!!

But oK... God is an esample of knowledge wit-out esperience (so much for you "theory" that knowledge requires esperience).!!!

Which begs the queston you chose to ignore:::

"why did God create the universe the way he did which unnecesarly makes human sufferin inevitable... unless this God is a monster.???"



In you'r own words:::

Lori---"there are obviously different opinions about whether or not it's ok to rape someone. and while we can spend our time debating these different opinions, people can/will continue to be raped."


Yep... God knew befor he even created 'em that Adam an Eve woud sin... God purposfully created them an ther surroundins in such a way that they had no choise but to eat the "apple"... an all the horrors of human esistence which follered was inevitable.!!!
---------------------

I thank a all-knowin all-powerful God coud turn us into door-knobs wit the knowledge/ability to preceive ourselfs as bein happy.!!!



Which misses my pont:::

God has knowledge which didnt require that it com from esperience... an sinse God is all-knowin an all-powerful... not only coud he turn us into happy door-knobs... he coud also impart knowledge into us wit-out a necessity for us to esperience such horrors as bein burned to death or bein raped/tortured an murdered as a child.!!!

So whats you'r esplination... is God not all-knowin an all-powerful... or a monster... or what.???

we did too have a choice as to whether or not to "eat the apple". and why did we choose to? to gain knowledge. we wanted knowledge, and now we know. there are people who turn their back on this knowledge all day long while their dying in it. :shrug:

did god know what we would choose before we did? yes.

many people don't believe that we are spiritual, and that a spiritual realm exists, and we move on when we die. they think this world and this body is all there is.

do you think that would have an impact on your perspective regarding the trials of life?

 

[cluelusshusbund]

we did too have a choice as to whether or not to "eat the apple". and why did we choose to? to gain knowledge. we wanted knowledge...

Esactly... God knew what Adam an Eve woud do even befor he created 'em cause he designed 'em to be inqusitive/to behave esactly the way they did... ie... he wanted 'em to eat the apple.!!!

and now we know. there are people who turn their back on this knowledge all day long while their dying in it. :shrug:

You seem surprized that humans behave esactly the way they was designed to behave :shrug:

did god know what we would choose before we did? yes.

Well of course... do you thank God woud create humans in such a way that they woudnt behave how he wanted.???

many people don't believe that we are spiritual, and that a spiritual realm exists, and we move on when we die. they think this world and this body is all there is.

Yes i dont have such beleifs cause i dont see any verifiable evidence for any of that.!!!

do you think that would have an impact on your perspective regarding the trials of life?

Well... if i had you'r genes an the inviroment you esperienced i woud have the beleifs you have... an if you had my genes an the inviroment ive esperienced... you'r opinion on such maters woud be the sam as mine.!!!

 

[Skeptical]

Lori

You replied to my challenge with the free will counterargument.

How do you think free will comes into it when an innocent child dies in agony from an 'Act of God'?

 

[cluelusshusbund]

i think god want's an intelligent creation...

Do you thank God is pleased wit the level of intelligence his creaton has.???

 

[Lori_7]

Lori

You replied to my challenge with the free will counterargument.

How do you think free will comes into it when an innocent child dies in agony from an 'Act of God'?

not directly no. but i imagine that when communion is restored with god, that he'll be able to protect us from things like that. perhaps we'll live in a place where things like that don't happen. the kingdom that's described at the end of the bible definitely sounds like a different place, but much of the bible is metaphorical, so it's hard to say. something that isn't metaphorical though is that we won't suffer or die.

but indirectly yes, because when we allowed sin into our bodies, it hindered our communion with god.

 

[Lori_7]

Esactly... God knew what Adam an Eve woud do even befor he created 'em cause he designed 'em to be inqusitive/to behave esactly the way they did... ie... he wanted 'em to eat the apple.!!!



You seem surprized that humans behave esactly the way they was designed to behave :shrug:



Well of course... do you thank God woud create humans in such a way that they woudnt behave how he wanted.???



Yes i dont have such beleifs cause i dont see any verifiable evidence for any of that.!!!



Well... if i had you'r genes an the inviroment you esperienced i woud have the beleifs you have... an if you had my genes an the inviroment ive esperienced... you'r opinion on such maters woud be the sam as mine.!!!

do you think that if adam and eve had any idea what the consequence of their act would be, that they would have eaten? i don't.

so now we know what the consequence is, and there are many of us who want to be redeemed, and will never make that mistake again.

 

[Lori_7]

Do you thank God is pleased wit the level of intelligence his creaton has.???

i don't know.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

do you think that if adam and eve had any idea what the consequence of their act would be, that they would have eaten? i don't.

so now we know what the consequence is, and there are many of us who want to be redeemed, and will never make that mistake again.

So Adam an Eve was jus the set-up for the rest of Gods plan...
which is for som to be redeemed an for others to stay stuck in hell on earf.!!!

What caused you to have the God-beleifs you have... an why do you thank others such as myself dont have those beleifs.???

i think god want's an intelligent creation... ”

Do you thank God is pleased wit the level of intelligence his creaton has.???

i don't know.

Didnt God choose how inteligent his creaton woud be.???

 

[Skeptical]

Lori said

"but indirectly yes, because when we allowed sin into our bodies, it hindered our communion with god."

You are describing the concept of original sin. This is an evil concept. When a new born baby comes into this world, that baby is innocent of any sin. You are suggesting that sins done by the baby's forebears now descend upon the baby.

The only kind of deity that would permit this is an evil god. Clueluss has asked you several times if your god is a monster. If you believe in original sin, then you must also believe your god is a monster.

 

[Doreen]

but indirectly yes, because when we allowed sin into our bodies, it hindered our communion with god.

Almost every Christian for most of the history of Christianity would have considered your avatar sinful and not mildly. Were they all wrong? How do you know they were?

 

[Lori_7]

Lori said

"but indirectly yes, because when we allowed sin into our bodies, it hindered our communion with god."

You are describing the concept of original sin. This is an evil concept. When a new born baby comes into this world, that baby is innocent of any sin. You are suggesting that sins done by the baby's forebears now descend upon the baby.

The only kind of deity that would permit this is an evil god. Clueluss has asked you several times if your god is a monster. If you believe in original sin, then you must also believe your god is a monster.

i think sin is genetic.

and that parents have the greatest influence on their children usually.

and that we don't choose the world or the circumstance we're born into but, i see children growing up to leave legacies not unlike their forefathers. it's pandemic.

 

[Lori_7]

Almost every Christian for most of the history of Christianity would have considered your avatar sinful and not mildly. Were they all wrong? How do you know they were?

i espressed how i feel about that in the ramadan and women thread. pages 3 and 4.

 

[Lori_7]

So Adam an Eve was jus the set-up for the rest of Gods plan...
which is for som to be redeemed an for others to stay stuck in hell on earf.!!!

What caused you to have the God-beleifs you have... an why do you thank others such as myself dont have those beleifs.???

the holy spirit interacting with me.

some people don't want to know god clueless. would you, when you think he's a monster?

Do you thank God is pleased wit the level of intelligence his creaton has.???



Didnt God choose how inteligent his creaton woud be.???

he's not done with us yet. thank god.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

the holy spirit interacting with me.

some people don't want to know god clueless. would you, when you think he's a monster?

Monster or not... if ther was evidence of this "God" i woud want to be made aware of it... so why wont the holey spirit interact wit me.???

i think god want's an intelligent creation... ” ”

Do you thank God is pleased wit the level of intelligence his creaton has.???

i don't know. ”

Didnt God choose how inteligent his creaton woud be.???

he's not done with us yet. thank god.

oK... sinse God does activly control the level of inteligence humans have... he mus be pleased wit the level of inteligence we curently have... or do you thank God creates thangs he knows he wont be pleased wit.???

 

[Doreen]

i espressed how i feel about that in the ramadan and women thread. pages 3 and 4.

OK. I read your posts on those pages. You say it is smart versus stupid men, but women Christians would also have thought your posting your own ass - I think - in underwear like this would be sinful. Also my question is not: why do you think it is OK?

But rather, given that you refer to sin interfering with communion with God and that the word sin in Christianity would have included what you are doing, what makes you think your interpretation of sin is correct and how did the Bible or Spirit fail for so long to get what you consider the right view through to Christians?

So the issue is not for me is Lori right or wrong on this issue. In fact I agree quite a bit with what you said in that thread on 3 and 4. The issue is more that you refer to sin as a Christian but must be defining this in ways that most Christians would differ with you on. How can that be? Why isn't the Bible clearer on this and other issues? Where does your certainty come from? The Bible suggests that a woman dress modestly and properly. Do you think your avatar falls under that description?

 

[Skeptical]

Lori

Your idea of sin is rather pathological. In fact, only about 10% of the human species can be considered to be genuinely 'sinful'. Most of us, including my own non believing self, are essentially good people, whose sins are trivial.

And babies are born innocent. Sure, they may later develop into Dr. Crippen clones, but at birth they lack sin. Millions of these innocents die in great pain within a year of being born, from disease, famine, or natural disaster. All of these are "Acts of God." You cannot justify that as the act of a good God. If God exists, and is all powerful, then he must be evil.

Of course, if you are a bit flexible in your view of deity, the paradox disappears. If God is not, in fact, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent, the contradictions will not exist.