Did Jesus Suffer Enough?

[John99]

In fact, only about 10% of the human species can be considered to be genuinely 'sinful'. Most of us, including my own non believing self, are essentially good people, whose sins are trivial.

You are contradicting yourself. In fact, that is a benchmark for contradiction.

I am not a big fan of the word "sin" and the word can be substituted for many things and they would signify the same thing. However, if we were to use it then there are different levels of sin. One can be simply telling a lie.

And babies are born innocent. Sure, they may later develop into Dr. Crippen clones, but at birth they lack sin. Millions of these innocents die in great pain within a year of being born, from disease, famine, or natural disaster. All of these are "Acts of God." You cannot justify that as the act of a good God. If God exists, and is all powerful, then he must be evil.

Of course babies are born innocent but they also have never done anything at all. They may die from great pain but they were also born from what some would consider great pain.

I dont understand your logic in that last sentence either. If a large tree branch falls and hits someone on the head and the are (obviously) in great pain and die hours later what does that mean? Surely not that the branch was evil.

Also, you need to remember that pain serves a purpose. Mainly telling the person in pain that there is a problem so it isnt something we can just eliminate.

 

[Lori_7]

Lori

Your idea of sin is rather pathological. In fact, only about 10% of the human species can be considered to be genuinely 'sinful'. Most of us, including my own non believing self, are essentially good people, whose sins are trivial.

And babies are born innocent. Sure, they may later develop into Dr. Crippen clones, but at birth they lack sin. Millions of these innocents die in great pain within a year of being born, from disease, famine, or natural disaster. All of these are "Acts of God." You cannot justify that as the act of a good God. If God exists, and is all powerful, then he must be evil.

Of course, if you are a bit flexible in your view of deity, the paradox disappears. If God is not, in fact, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, and omnibenevolent, the contradictions will not exist.

no sin is trivial. it actually compounds and snowballs over time and ends up with us in a mess like we are today. and we are 100% responsible for that. we are all afflicted. you have never been greedy? you have never been lustful? you have never been lazy? you have never been hateful? you have never felt lonely? you have never been sick? you are going to suffer and die.

sin causes disease. sin causes hunger. i don't know where you live but i live in the states, and i know damn well there is enough food to go around. sin causes death. even just a little bit causes death. it's an all or nothing situation.

which again, all points to genetics.

 

[Lori_7]

Monster or not... if ther was evidence of this "God" i woud want to be made aware of it... so why wont the holey spirit interact wit me.???

have you ever sincerely asked it to?

Do you thank God is pleased wit the level of intelligence his creaton has.???



Didnt God choose how inteligent his creaton woud be.???



oK... sinse God does activly control the level of inteligence humans have... he mus be pleased wit the level of inteligence we curently have... or do you thank God creates thangs he knows he wont be pleased wit.???

i don't think god is surprised or displeased, i just don't think he's finished.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
...why wont the holey spirit interact wit me.??? ”

Lori
have you ever sincerely asked it to?

No... i dont have beleifs that such a thang esists.!!!

Did you beleive ther was such a thang befor you ask it to interact wit you.???
---------------

...sinse God does activly control the level of inteligence humans have... he mus be pleased wit the level of inteligence we curently have... or do you thank God creates thangs he knows he wont be pleased wit.??? ”

i don't think god is surprised or displeased, i just don't think he's finished.

But do you agree that our level of inteligence is determined by God.???

 

[Lori_7]

OK. I read your posts on those pages. You say it is smart versus stupid men, but women Christians would also have thought your posting your own ass - I think - in underwear like this would be sinful. Also my question is not: why do you think it is OK?

by "underwear like this", do you mean granny panties?

it's nothing someone wouldn't see if they went to a swimming pool, or the beach, or the mall, or flipped on their tv, or watched a movie, or drove down the street.

But rather, given that you refer to sin interfering with communion with God and that the word sin in Christianity would have included what you are doing, what makes you think your interpretation of sin is correct and how did the Bible or Spirit fail for so long to get what you consider the right view through to Christians?

So the issue is not for me is Lori right or wrong on this issue. In fact I agree quite a bit with what you said in that thread on 3 and 4. The issue is more that you refer to sin as a Christian but must be defining this in ways that most Christians would differ with you on. How can that be? Why isn't the Bible clearer on this and other issues? Where does your certainty come from? The Bible suggests that a woman dress modestly and properly. Do you think your avatar falls under that description?

i honestly don't think the bible or the spirit have failed at all. i think some people claim to be christians, but don't know jesus at all. i think others know but are on different paths, and have learned different things.

i think the bible was written for a particular age of man. the age that he is fallen. but because of some things the spirit has done with me, my mind is somewhere else. i've already moved on in a lot of ways.

i used to wonder about sandy and christians like her, who justified their hate, and segregated themselves, and were so focused on their money and material wealth, and politics. i wondered, didn't they realize that none of those things would be a part of the kingdom? shouldn't their minds be on other things? moving forward?

the kingdom isn't going to be the same as it is here, and the people who inhabit it will not be the same. men will not lust after women there, ever, no matter what the women are wearing or aren't wearing. they will be more enlightened than that and more loving. this IS possible, and i'm tired of people not wanting to change.

my certainty comes from interactions with the spirit and what that's meant to me.

relevant music break...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8ljHOSqc4A

 

[Lori_7]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
...why wont the holey spirit interact wit me.??? ”



No... i dont have beleifs that such a thang esists.!!!

well there you go.

Did you beleive ther was such a thang befor you ask it to interact wit you.???

i didn't know, but i really wanted to know.
---------------

...sinse God does activly control the level of inteligence humans have... he mus be pleased wit the level of inteligence we curently have... or do you thank God creates thangs he knows he wont be pleased wit.??? ”



But do you agree that our level of inteligence is determined by God.???

i think free will plays a part, don't you? in the pursuit of education or knowledge, and in particular the knowledge of god? eh hem.

certainly you see people turn a blind eye and do the wrong thing all the time like i do, don't you?

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
...why wont the holey spirit interact wit me.??? ”

...i dont have beleifs that such a thang esists.!!! ”

well there you go.

Did you beleive ther was such a thang befor you ask it to interact wit you.???

i didn't know, but i really wanted to know.

So did you sincerly ask the "spirit" to interact wit you befor you beleived the spirit esisted.???

 

[Lori_7]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
...why wont the holey spirit interact wit me.??? ”

...i dont have beleifs that such a thang esists.!!! ”

why?

Did you beleive ther was such a thang befor you ask it to interact wit you.???

no, that's why i asked.

So did you sincerly ask the "spirit" to interact wit you befor you beleived the spirit esisted.???

yeah. i said, "if you're real, you're going to have to prove it".

 

[Doreen]

by "underwear like this", do you mean granny panties?

They are underwear. They are not boxer shorts - iow that have their own non-body shape.

it's nothing someone wouldn't see if they went to a swimming pool, or the beach, or the mall, or flipped on their tv, or watched a movie, or drove down the street.

They would not see it framed like that. The equivalent would be someone walking up to their beach chair with a frame that they place around their ass and then push their ass towards the person's face. See this, do not see the rest of me or something else.

Further your examples still do not explain how Christians for so many centuries could have gotten this so wrong.

i honestly don't think the bible or the spirit have failed at all. i think some people claim to be christians, but don't know jesus at all.

So you know Jesus and what he would think was modest and proper attire and how the female body is to be presented and what you've done he would consider fine and he would judge their prudishness? And when the Bible says modest and proper attire it meant to include this.

i think the bible was written for a particular age of man. the age that he is fallen. but because of some things the spirit has done with me, my mind is somewhere else. i've already moved on in a lot of ways.

So the Bible's values are not necessarily the current values of Spirit?

 

[Skeptical]

To John

Can you explain why you think I was contradicting myself?

Why do I call God evil? Because he/she/it is supposed to be omnipotent and still permits pain and hardship to fall upon those who do not deserve it. Do you really think all those people in Pakistan right now suffering terrible hunger due to the floods, are dreadful sinners who deserve it? What of those suffering who are less than a year old?

To Lori who thinks no sin is trivial.
I cannot but think you are way off the mark on this. I am human and have human desires. These are inbuilt and have no good or evil value. So I see a beautiful woman and think that it would be nice to have sex with her. That is a sin?? You gotta be kidding. That is just a perfectly natural reaction, without harm. I suspect that most good looking women are actually quite pleased by the fact that their beauty arouses male lust.

Likewise, if I am hungry and see another person getting stuck into a lovely meal and feel envious. That is no sin. It is just the natural response.

Have I never been lazy? Absolutely. All the time. I love my liesure. However, if you consider that a sin, I have to consider your value system to be way off from the truth. Again, this is a natural response. Humans are evolved to conserve energy. It can be called laziness, but is simply an adaptation to the fact that throughout most of history, conserving energy was pro-survival.

Have I been hateful? Perhaps. But never to the extent of harming anyone. This makes my hatefulness very trivial.

Feeling lonely or sick? Even the bible does not describe these as sins.

I repeat. Most people are essentially decent. Their sins, like mine, are trivial. Only a minority of humanity is sinful to any serious extent. I think you are exaggerating the importance of a whole bunch of trivialities.

 

[Lori_7]

To John

Can you explain why you think I was contradicting myself?

Why do I call God evil? Because he/she/it is supposed to be omnipotent and still permits pain and hardship to fall upon those who do not deserve it. Do you really think all those people in Pakistan right now suffering terrible hunger due to the floods, are dreadful sinners who deserve it? What of those suffering who are less than a year old?

To Lori who thinks no sin is trivial.
I cannot but think you are way off the mark on this. I am human and have human desires. These are inbuilt and have no good or evil value. So I see a beautiful woman and think that it would be nice to have sex with her. That is a sin?? You gotta be kidding. That is just a perfectly natural reaction, without harm. I suspect that most good looking women are actually quite pleased by the fact that their beauty arouses male lust.

Likewise, if I am hungry and see another person getting stuck into a lovely meal and feel envious. That is no sin. It is just the natural response.

Have I never been lazy? Absolutely. All the time. I love my liesure. However, if you consider that a sin, I have to consider your value system to be way off from the truth. Again, this is a natural response. Humans are evolved to conserve energy. It can be called laziness, but is simply an adaptation to the fact that throughout most of history, conserving energy was pro-survival.

Have I been hateful? Perhaps. But never to the extent of harming anyone. This makes my hatefulness very trivial.

Feeling lonely or sick? Even the bible does not describe these as sins.

I repeat. Most people are essentially decent. Their sins, like mine, are trivial. Only a minority of humanity is sinful to any serious extent. I think you are exaggerating the importance of a whole bunch of trivialities.

i'm sorry but what you're saying doesn't mesh with the world we all live in today.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
...why wont the holey spirit interact wit me.??? ”

...i dont have beleifs that such a thang esists.!!! ” ”

why?

I havent seen any evidence that woud lead me to thank a "holey spirit" esists... or Wiches or devels... ect.!!!

“ Did you beleive ther was such a thang befor you ask it to interact wit you.??? ”

no, that's why i asked.

“ So did you sincerly ask the "spirit" to interact wit you befor you beleived the spirit esisted.??? ”

yeah. i said, "if you're real, you're going to have to prove it".

Have you talked to other thangs you dont thank esists in a sincere way... such as tooth-faries Santa-Clause an Easter-Bunny to test if they realy do esist.???

 

[Lori_7]

They are underwear. They are not boxer shorts - iow that have their own non-body shape.

oh, god forbid.

They would not see it framed like that. The equivalent would be someone walking up to their beach chair with a frame that they place around their ass and then push their ass towards the person's face. See this, do not see the rest of me or something else.

i've been there. in a lawn chair in front of woman wearing a thong. they frame it pretty well in movies and in billboards, and magazine advertisements. how about the advertisement for those butt-shaper athletic shoes?

Further your examples still do not explain how Christians for so many centuries could have gotten this so wrong.

people are stupid and evil. is this really news to you?

So you know Jesus and what he would think was modest and proper attire and how the female body is to be presented and what you've done he would consider fine and he would judge their prudishness? And when the Bible says modest and proper attire it meant to include this.

So the Bible's values are not necessarily the current values of Spirit?

i think jesus would rather us all run around naked and unashamed. but the bible deals with atonement for sin, in large part because we live in it. it also deals with the abolition of sin, which is what jesus is for.

 

[Lori_7]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
...why wont the holey spirit interact wit me.??? ”

...i dont have beleifs that such a thang esists.!!! ” ”



I havent seen any evidence that woud lead me to thank a "holey spirit" esists... or Wiches or devels... ect.!!!

there are many things you could remain ignorant of if you don't seek. and why would you seek if you already have your mind made up?

“ Did you beleive ther was such a thang befor you ask it to interact wit you.??? ”



“ So did you sincerly ask the "spirit" to interact wit you befor you beleived the spirit esisted.??? ”



Have you talked to other thangs you dont thank esists in a sincere way... such as tooth-faries Santa-Clause an Easter-Bunny to test if they realy do esist.???

no, my parents clued me in when i was younger. i was disappointed.

 

[John99]

To John
Can you explain why you think I was contradicting myself?

Well i dont understand what "genuinely sinful" is and then you went on to say "Most of us, including my own non believing self, are essentially good people, whose sins are trivial." Is not "trivial" genuine?

Originally Posted by Skeptical
In fact, only about 10% of the human species can be considered to be genuinely 'sinful'. Most of us, including my own non believing self, are essentially good people, whose sins are trivial.

Why do I call God evil? Because he/she/it is supposed to be omnipotent and still permits pain and hardship to fall upon those who do not deserve it. Do you really think all those people in Pakistan right now suffering terrible hunger due to the floods, are dreadful sinners who deserve it? What of those suffering who are less than a year old?

Acts of nature? Which is why i used the tree branch example.

 

[John99]

And for that matter (natural) child birth itself is very painful and pain is suffering.

 

[John99]

As i stated previously, without the ability to feel pain many people would die much sooner simlpy because they think everything is fine. How do you determine your appendix is going to kill you?

OR you have an infection in your sinuses that will one day effect your whole body and kill you?

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
I havent seen any evidence that woud lead me to thank a "holey spirit" esists... or Wiches or devels... ect.!!! ”

there are many things you could remain ignorant of if you don't seek. and why would you seek if you already have your mind made up?

Have you talked to other thangs you dont thank esists in a sincere way... such as tooth-faries Santa-Clause an Easter-Bunny to test if they realy do esist.??? ”

no, my parents clued me in when i was younger. i was disappointed.

So you thank its a mistake that i wont sincerly talk to somptin i dont thank actualy esists... but you thank it makes sinse for you not to sincerly talk to thangs you dont thank esists... why is that.???

 

[Lori_7]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
I havent seen any evidence that woud lead me to thank a "holey spirit" esists... or Wiches or devels... ect.!!! ”



Have you talked to other thangs you dont thank esists in a sincere way... such as tooth-faries Santa-Clause an Easter-Bunny to test if they realy do esist.??? ”



So you thank its a mistake that i wont sincerly talk to somptin i dont thank actualy esists... but you thank it makes sinse for you not to sincerly talk to thangs you dont thank esists... why is that.???

well i don't think my parents were lying to me; that seems pretty obvious. do you think i'm lying to you?

 

[Skeptical]

To Lori

Re underwear.

I do not have a problem with the human body. If I see a photo of any part of any human body, it is not innately sinful, or unchristian or anything like that. Just natural. I do not care if it is male or female, or top or bottom, or even whether the body looks good or looks ugly. It is all just a part of being human.

However, I do have to question the good taste of your icon. What do you think of us, your debate partners, if you choose to communicate by pointing your arse at us?

Re sin.

You seem to have a hang up on this. This is common among Christians, but I consider it to be quite irrational. What does it matter that we have little quirks like feeling lust towards a good looking person of the opposite gender?

If someone takes that lust too far, and engages in rape, then that is very, very bad. However, the vast majority of us will never do anything like that. I am male, and normally sexed. I see some sexy woman, and inside I go "Whooooah!" So what? She does not know, and my actions and thoughts harm no-one. Nor does that harm me in any way.

If your god exists, and is that concerned about trivial sins, then I have no time for him/her/it. Lets get real, and worry about the things that really matter.

To John

You do not seem to appreciate the question. Why does God inflict unnecessary pain and suffering on innocents?

Now, I agree that if a branch falls on someone's head, that is just nature. But I am a religious non believer. In the same way, I agree that something like appendicitis pain performs a natural service. But that is a non religious view. What do the religious say? I am asking those who believe in a Christian god, why that omnipotent, and omnibenevolent god permits pain, suffering, and even torment to afflict those who have done nothing to deserve it?