Dear Believers, prove your god or gods is/aren't just fiction(s).

DaveC426913 said:
Well, since you're opening the door to speculation on how and what other people think, let me kick it wide open for you.

For my part, I would be delighted if God were real.

Imagine the freedom from responsibility that would entail, having a true objective morality with teeth - an authority and can mete out praise and punishment without me having to think it through for myself. If I don't murder my neighbour it's because that authority told me not to. It would be like being a kid again, knowing there's always a parent to keep me safe and to tell me right from wrong. Man, it would be awesome to stay a kid and have my parent live forever. It's very alluring - one could very easily be tempted into living in it.


Alas, until and unless God wants to speak to me, I have to stop being a kid. It would be nice but, as an adult, I know that wishing something were real doesn't make it real.

I have to do the hard work of thinking for myself - ruminating over subjective morality, accepting that the only praise and punishment is going to come from myself or my fellow human, and generally growing up and taking responsibility for myself as an adult. I have murdered just as many people as if my parent told me not to, but when I don't murder people, it is because I have worked out for myself that it is bad.


I envy theists; they still have one foot in the garden of Eden, where they don't have to adult.
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Because Jesus taught it(Christianity).

Luke 18:15–17
 
exchemist said:
Many of these scholars are religious people, actually.

Acknowledging the gospels for what they are considered to be, that is, texts to collate and amplify the stories and beliefs of the first Christians, does not imply atheism. It’s just being realistic about the likely intentions of the writers.
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I don't understand posts and paragraphs or sentences that suggest the writers had some suicidal cult. The writers were rewarded(in most cases) a horrific death. Think more.
 
billvon said:
It is literally a historical work. It's a big part of history. It just isn't all that accurate - nor does it purport to be. It's a book of parables that a religion is founded on. It's not a history book, or a science book, or a math book (fortunately.)

I think it would be great if one of the gods were real. A guy you can ask to cure your cancer, or prevent a hurricane, or protect the innocent? That would be awesome.

There's simply no real evidence (other than, as you mentioned, people who really like the idea.)
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It's a book about God. The only people who don't take it seriously are atheists and Jews.
 
davewhite04 said:
I don't understand posts and paragraphs or sentences that suggest the writers had some suicidal cult. The writers were rewarded(in most cases) a horrific death. Think more.
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Don't be silly. There is no suggestion that is what most scholars think.
 
DaveC426913 said:
I don't begrudge your feelings toward believers, Gawd, but I'm not interested in just bashing them. Surely we can be critical and still civil.

I'm perfectly happy living alongside believers. (Some of my closest and most respected loved ones are Theologians.) Only when they start making public assertions that encompess others do I feel the need to challenge their assertions.
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The arrogance from you(applies to most atheists on here) is the reason why you'll never learn about God no matter how interested you pretend to be. Being a theist is not easy, atheists can do what the hell they like, Christians strive to love of many, many fall short, but at least they try.
 
davewhite04 said:
Why do you think the writers wrote the new testament wrote it knowing they faced exclusion from the Jewish community, thrown to the lions or crucified by the Romans. What do *think*.
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Where do you get this suicide cult stuff from? What "posts, paragraphs and sentences" (as per your post 242) are you referring to which suggest such a thing?
 
exchemist said:
Where do you get this suicide cult stuff from? What "posts, paragraphs and sentences" (as per your post 242) are you referring to which suggest such a thing?
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I used "suicide cult" because that's what(foundations of Christianity) it would have been if the new testament wasn't true. I misjudged your tone in post 242, apologies, but "intention of writers", what was their intentions, and taking into account the reward they got for writing, do you think these writers and early Christians died for a lie? I'm being logical now. It is historic that Nero threw Christians to the lions etc.
 
davewhite04 said:
The arrogance from you(applies to most atheists on here) is the reason why
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What arrogance?
You claim to know a truth that you think applies to all of us. That's arrogance.

davewhite04 said:
you'll never learn about God no matter how interested you pretend to be.
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Again, presumptive. I grew up Catholic. I went to church and Catechism every week.

I have been in your shoes; you have not been in mine.


davewhite04 said:
atheists can do what the hell they like,
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Yes they can. And yet they still choose to love just as much as theists.

davewhite04 said:
, Christians strive to love of many, many fall short, but at least they try.
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As do atheists.

You see the problem yes?

Theists do good because God tells them to - an external moral compass.
Atheists do good because they have figured out for themselves to do good - an internal moral compass.
 
davewhite04 said:
I used "suicide cult" because that's what(foundations of Christianity) it would have been if the new testament wasn't true. I misjudged your tone in post 242, apologies, but "intention of writers", what was their intentions, and taking into account the reward they got for writing, do you think these writers and early Christians died for a lie? I'm being logical now. It is historic that Nero threw Christians to the lions etc.
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OK so "suicide cult" is something you have made up for rhetorical effect. We can forget about it then.

You are muddling up two entirely different things.

One is the undoubted belief of the early Christians.

The other is the historical accuracy, or lack of it, of the gospels.

The early Christians doubtless believed much or all of what is written in the gospels was true. But the fact they believed it was true is not evidence that it was. The gospels were very likely written to reinforce belief, for an audience already predisposed to believe. (Trump supporters believe the 2020 election was stolen, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. Why? Because they want to believe it is true.)

Even an amateur can see that St. John's gospel (my favourite, actually) contains material that is theology, which does not pretend to be a historical record at all. And an expert can see how St. Luke's and St Matthew's contain material lifted from St. Mark's and reworked. Read the Wiki article I linked.
 
DaveC426913 said:
Again, presumptive. I grew up Catholic. I went to church and Catechism every week.
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lol!!!
That is the equivalent of saying “I’m not racist, I have a black friend”.
The truth from perspective having chatted with you, and reading what you write in this silly thread, is that you are in denial of God. You only use the evidence card to get you out of actually expressing that denial.
You’re an interesting case
 
DaveC426913 said:
What arrogance?
You claim to know a truth that you think applies to all of us. That's arrogance.


Again, presumptive. I grew up Catholic. I went to church and Catechism every week.

I have been in your shoes; you have not been in mine.



Yes they can. And yet they still choose to love just as much as theists.


As do atheists.

You see the problem yes?

Theists do good because God tells them to - an external moral compass.
Atheists do good because they have figured out for themselves to do good - an internal moral compass.
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I have heard you say before that you were catholic, religious etc. I didn't experience this, I've never been religious. Quoting bible passages is more about philosophy to me.

If you don't believe in Jesus, you will be judged. Jesus was the final blood sacrifice, no more blood required in a temple for forgiveness of sins, Jesus replaces all that.

This verse might apply to you:

Luke 5:31-33
 
exchemist said:
Even an amateur can see that St. John's gospel (my favourite, actually) contains material that is theology, which does not pretend to be a historical record at all. And an expert can see how St. Luke's and St Matthew's contain material lifted from St. Mark's and reworked. Read the Wiki article I linked.
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Let's forget about history then, even though it is blatantly historic(it's used for archaeology to uncover the past for example).

If you choose to disregard the story of Jesus, so be it. Free will, or is it?
 
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