Darwin's Theory is False

[phlogistician]

You failed to answer my question about the rich man and Lazarus. How long does the rich man's torment last in hell. When does it stop? You keep ignoring the posts I do provide.

I answered Woody, do you not read my posts? It doesn't specify the length of time spent in Hell. So, like I said earlier, that does not imply eternity.

But all of this is diversion from you actually finding scriptural support for your claims. If you could, you would have by now.

It tells me that a sinner in hell is like a worm, and it doesn't die. Let's hear your explanation.

And according to the OT, god doesn't turn his back on people for ever, so the 'worm' doesn't die, he gets forgiven his sins, because god is compassionate.

As I said before I don't really care what hell is like because I'm not going there. You really don't believe hell exists so it shouldn't matter to you either.

Oh, the arrogance, you, deciding your own fate!

It matters to me what organised groups believe. If you want to teach your nonsense to your own kind, that's fine. It's when you want to spread your poison I get riled. It's when you want to exclude other philospohy and science that doesn't meet your agenda, because your ideas don't hold water, and cannot bear scrutiny, I get riled.

Why do billions of christians believe there is an eternal hell, but they aren't going there, while non-believers don't believe there is an eternal hell, and tell christians they are wrong about their own bible?

Why do over a billion Atheists not fall for it? Because you've all been brainwashed? And only someone who has not been indoctrinated can see there are glaring omissions?

If you could find that reference, and it was clear, you'd have posted it by now and shut me up. I've posted a scriptural reference proving your wrong in the meanwhile, which you have failed to acknowledge, interpret, or excuse.

So, instead of these transparent attempts to turn the tables, spend your time finding that reference, or explaining that the quote from the OT doesn't mean what it says.

 

[Woody]

phlog says:

I answered Woody, do you not read my posts? It doesn't specify the length of time spent in Hell. So, like I said earlier, that does not imply eternity.

I read your posts.

And according to the OT, god doesn't turn his back on people for ever

Could you present that quote?

Likewise there is a quote in the N/T that says the same thing about "his people."

Romans 11:1-2 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew.

This verse was specifically addressed to the Hebrew people -- not to the whole world.

Sinners are not God's people. God's people are His children. They hear His voice and obey.

Oh, the arrogance, you, deciding your own fate!

You don't believe hell exists do you?

Why do over a billion Atheists not fall for it? Because you've all been brainwashed? And only someone who has not been indoctrinated can see there are glaring omissions?

The light is blinding you and that's why you see the glare.

While we're at it let's get the numbers straight.

So you're going to tell me that a few atheists in this world are right and over half the world's population is wrong about hell. Christians believe the bible, that's why we believe there is an eternal hell.

You don't believe the bible and you don't want to believe there is an eternal hell because if the bible is right then it means you are going there. Why don't you just admit it?

 

[SnakeLord]

So you're going to tell me that a few atheists in this world are right and over half the world's population is wrong about hell

Dare I tell you that this isn't a numbers game, but one where evidence has the say?

 

[Silas]

I would suggest that the majority of Christians do not believe in an eternal hell anymore, on the grounds that it does not square with their view of a loving God.

You don't believe the bible and you don't want to believe there is an eternal hell because if the bible is right then it means you are going there. Why don't you just admit it?

You can't be scared in what you don't believe in. If you really need to believe in Hell to actually make you behave morally, that's your problem.

If the bible is "right", I am indeed going to Hell. But I will feel myself perfectly justified in never having worshipped God, since we evidently have widely divergent views concerning judicious punishment for wrongdoing. Also, since the "wrongdoing" would primarily consist in not worshipping God, I would continue to oppose Him as I oppose anyone who does not permit freedom of thought and who does not tolerate dissent. The entire Universe is truly Hell, if that tiny-minded sadistic bigot is the Deity in charge.

A while back, Woody, I wrote extensively about why, if Hell as described in the Bible really existed, God would be a far worse criminal than Hitler, Stalin, Saddam, Pol Pot and Idi Amin combined. You ignored all that, picked out the part where I just asked if you really believed in this God and said yes. That's not really what I was getting at. Given God's determined belief in eternal punishment for finite crimes conducted throughout a piffling 40-80 year lifetime, your adherence to this vicious sadist really requires some justification.

I'm not blaspheming God, by the way, only the strange hateful demonic deity you continue to support and defend with the aid of what it says in the Bible. Worship of that being requires something more than "I believe in it because it's in the Bible." In fact, I'm asking you to demonstrate that you've actually thought about what I've said about God.

I found the quote and your reply, part of which goes

This is indeed a sad state of affairs for both the creator and the created. All God ever wanted was fellowship with man. Now what does he do with those who refuse to fulfill his wish? If He annihilates them to nonexistance then he doesn't really love them. But it really pisses him off that they are around, not only because of what they have done, but because of what they are, and they (sinners) can not change what they are, only God can do that, but they won't let him -- now and forever -- because the change requires faith. If a person dies without faith then they will never have faith. So there is no solution for them but separation from God, and this is Hell -- eternal separation from God.

It still astounds me that you can continue to take God's side in this. If all God wants is "fellowship with man", then he'd better start matching up to our standard of behaviour.

From the Watchtower --the official Jehovah's Witness site.


“ Myth 4: Some people are tormented afterdeath.
Many religions teach that the wicked will go to a fiery hell and be tormented forever. Is this teaching logical and Scriptural? The human life span is limited to 70 or 80 years. Even if someone was guilty of extreme wickedness all his life, would everlasting torment be a just punishment? No. It would be grossly unjust to torment a man forever for the sins that he committed in a short lifetime. ”



I have no interest in becoming a JW.

Neither do I, but what about the force of their argument, Woody? How can you worship a manifestly Unjust God? (I'm not suggesting for a moment that you cease to worship God, just the God that sentences you to eternity years of torture.)

 

[KennyJC]

So you're going to tell me that a few atheists in this world are right and over half the world's population is wrong about hell. Christians believe the bible, that's why we believe there is an eternal hell.

Woody, that chart is total crap. I tell you why, I would probably be labelled a Christian purely because of my upbringing, yet I'm an atheist. I would even say most people who claim to be religious just say they are religious for the sake of it. For example I know of nobody who practices religion, but ask them their religion and half of them will say Christian, the other half will say Atheist. Ask them if they are religious and most of them will say no. It all depends on how the question is phrased.

But ignoring that, the popularity of something (especially something as stupid as religion and superstitions) doesn't mean it's true. I bet I could also paste a chart that shows the majority of people worldwide believes in ghosts, but it is obviously not true depite it being a popular notion by people.

 

[Sarkus]

Woody - most people in China do not claim to be of any religion.
(source = Wikpedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_China).
Since China represents 1/3 the world's population... how do you tie this into your chart?
Or is your chart only allowing for those that actually CLAIM to be of certain religious persuasions - in which case it's a poor chart as Atheism is NOT a religion.

 

[phlogistician]

I read your posts. ... Could you present that quote?

If you did read my posts you'd have seen it already!

Likewise there is a quote in the N/T that says the same thing about "his people."

Sinners are not God's people. God's people are His children. They hear His voice and obey.

You really are twisting the words now Woody, shows a level of desperation.

You don't believe hell exists do you?

Well done! It's a fairy tale used to scare the ignorant into line, Woody. It's meaning has never been defined, and has been warped and twisted over the centuries, mixed with other cultures values, and re-interpreted. The sad thing is, you aren't sure about what you believe in, you can't be, because all the descriptions are vague at best.

The light is blinding you and that's why you see the glare.

Why do xtians use the term 'light' to denote god and truth, when 'Lucifer' means 'light bringer'? Another amazing misinterpretation.

While we're at it let's get the numbers straight.

Yes let's, here's another chart;

Add up the number of people that are not monotheistic in that chart. Half of the 'non-religious' are atheists, and then there are other religions that don't believe in your one god. Even in your chart, 775Million are 'non-religious', whatever that means.

So you're going to tell me that a few atheists in this world are right and over half the world's population is wrong about hell.

So you are saying christian hell and heaven are the same as as the versions in Islam, are they, if you are claiming half the worlds population? So are you execting to rewarded with a bunch of virgins when you go to heaven, like Islamic men expect? Or, are the myths different, so you are guilty of convolving two disparate sources in a pathetic attempt to give your position more credibility through sheer numbers?

Christians believe the bible, that's why we believe there is an eternal hell.

I'm glad you brought the bible back up. Can I have that reference to mortal sinners spending an eternity in hell please?

You don't believe the bible and you don't want to believe there is an eternal hell because if the bible is right then it means you are going there. Why don't you just admit it?

I don't believe in Hell, because I think the bible is a a collection of myths, stories, fables, and half truths. Even if I believed the bible were true, there's still no support for spending an eternity in Hell! If there was, this debate would have been over much, much sooner. .

Why can't you admit that you have a belief in everlasting hell, but cannot prove it? Just like you cannot prove god exists, and that him being mentioned in the bible is not proof?

 

[spuriousmonkey]

If there are 1.2 billion chinese on a total of 6 billion world population where did they all go in the chart?

1.2 billion chinese:
Daoist (Taoist), Buddhist, Muslim 1%-2%, Christian 3%-4%
note: officially atheist (2002 est.)

1 billion indians
Religions:
Muslim 97% (Sunni 77%, Shi'a 20%), Christian, Hindu, and other 3%

I don't think the numbers will add up. I think we are dealing with a biased pie chart on a biased website.

EDIT-
looked at their methods:

Christianity: David B. Barrett's World Christian Encyclopedia (1994 update) gives an oft-cited figure of 1.9 billion Christians (or about 33% of the world population), and projected that by the year 2000 there will be 2.1 billion Christians in the world. The 2001 edition of the World Christian Encyclopedia stated there were 2.1 billion Christians in the world, or 33% of the total population. Regardless of the degree of accuracy of this figure, Christianity, if taken as a whole, is unarguably the largest world religion - the largest religion in the world. (Keep in mind that although Christianity is the world's largest religion, it is an umbrella term that comprises many different branches and denominations.)

That is of course a total bullshit number. I am registered as a catholic for instance although clearly I am an atheist.

 

[phlogistician]

Yep Spurious, I agree. I agree both charts are complete horse puckey.

But you know, Woody likes to cling to falsehoods. A big pile of them makes him feel secure.

 

[Giambattista]

Tell me about hell, woody.

Tell me about God's design for His Creation, and how loving He is to send us all to Hell. Oh, when I said ALL, of course I didn't mean you!

 

[spidergoat]

You don't believe the bible and you don't want to believe there is an eternal hell because if the bible is right then it means you are going there. Why don't you just admit it?

Why don't you just admit the OT was written and re-written several times by ancient Jews as a method of social control, to consolidate political power, and to maintain dominance over women and female values in general?

 

[ylooshi]

Why don't you just admit the OT was written and re-written several times by ancient Jews as a method of social control, to consolidate political power, and to maintain dominance over women and female values in general?

Fear.

Fear of losing power. Fear of not having a purpose. Fear of not being accepted. Fear of losing status among peers. Fear of thinking independently.

Religious people are fear driven. They have the "fear of god" in them.

I was once theistic, believing in the montheistic and anthropomorphic god of christianity, but over time I released that belief as my education increased.

Modern organized religion is clearly grounded in power and status (ironically, two of the things Jesus was said to have been critical of -if he really did exist). Mega-churches exist all over the place in the U.S. and have membership drives that are comprehensive for the communities they reside in. Parishoners are meant to feel regret if they don't attend cult meetings and meant to be ashamed if the question the authority of the cult. These mega-churches are replete with corruption and many of the cult leaders are involved with scandal and accusations which their cult-followers dismiss as "haters" who are simply out-to-get-them. Never mind the evidence.

"Financial, sexual and moral issues plague the leaders of today's churches. Almost like rock stars or famous athletes, these men and women have greater visibility than ever before, and greater access to huge amounts of cash..."

Dumbasses like Pat Robinson plague the airwaves in shows like 700 Club with nonsense about how the United States deserved 9/11 because "god" was upset with us. Ironically, this is exactly what another religious zealot believes as well.

It's time for the non-religious to stop being politically correct and agreeing that "people's individual beliefs should be respected" and start criticizing these beliefs publically. Its religion that is the primary cause for most of the world's problems today: war, terrorism, tyranny, oppression, occupation, elitism, etc. It even obstructs scientific advancements that can solve or address other problems like AIDS and Parkinson's Disease.

It was religious superstition that brought down the WTC; it was religious zealotry that responded with a "crusade" against the opposing religion. It is religious zealotry that interrupts the economic and technical progress of our nation.

Yenald Looshi

 

[Hapsburg]

Sinners are not God's people. God's people are His children. They hear His voice and obey.

1. God doesn't exist.
2. Sin is a fictional concept.
4 (or 3 for those of you keeping track). You aren't making any sense.

So you're going to tell me that a few atheists in this world are right and over half the world's population is wrong

Yes. Just because a quarter of the world's population believes in that doesn't mean it's true. If I said "the moon landing didn't happen", and a quarter of the world believed it, would that make it true? No.
Humans are, in general, stupid. They are going to believe bullshit more easily than logic.

 

[Sarkus]

So you're going to tell me that a few atheists in this world are right and over half the world's population is wrong about hell.

Using that logic, 67% of the world's population are not Christian - so why do you insist on believing something that the majority of the people don't believe?
Surely, by your logic, the weight of their numbers should sway you into believing something else - or better - nothing at all?

Again, using your own sense of logic, you must surely realise that 2/3 of the population think Christianity is NOT the right answer (if indeed you feel inclined to believe that a question was ever asked) - but you choose to ignore the majority?

Shame on you!!

 

[Woody]

Silas says:

If the bible is "right", I am indeed going to Hell.

Yes, and the God that loves me will be your devil forever if you end up there.

 

[Woody]

phlog says,

The sad thing is, you aren't sure about what you believe in, you can't be, because all the descriptions are vague at best.

I believe you are going there -- that is not what I want for you -- that is the sad part.

 

[superluminal]

Silas says:



Yes, and God will be your devil forever.

Do you really believe that your god of love would leave the fate of such huge percentages of his children to the words of a highly ambiguous book compiled thousands of years ago that has admittedly had the living crap edited out of it? This is just stupidity on a grand scale.

 

[Woody]

Do you really believe that your god of love would leave the fate of such huge percentages of his children to the words of a highly ambiguous book compiled thousands of years ago that has admittedly had the living crap edited out of it? This is just stupidity on a grand scale.

I'm not sure what you are asking.

 

[Woody]

Sarkus,

Again, using your own sense of logic, you must surely realise that 2/3 of the population think Christianity is NOT the right answer (if indeed you feel inclined to believe that a question was ever asked) - but you choose to ignore the majority?

Shame on you!!

An even smaller per centage will be going to heaven. Jesus said the road to hell is easy. I am not ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[superluminal]

I'm not sure what you are asking.

Really? Ok.

Why would a loving god leave the fate of peoples eternal souls (belief or non-belief) to the incoherent ramblings of the bible?

Why would he not just appear every evening to the whole world simultaneously and unambiguously proclaim himself?