Creation Museum Scheduled to open in 2007

Woody said:
I don't know if I buy that one. How do you explain a species getting started? At some point there is a first member of the new species.

Also, dogs are inbreed with some bad consequences, but they live.
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You wouldn't buy it, because you don't accept the premises and methods of science. If you did, you would see that evolution is stunningly accurate.

Anyway, species don't need to start with a first member, maybe they do sometime, like on an island, and I assume they go through a long period of hardship until they are well established. Many species branch off in a gradual manner.
 
Woody said:
These mammals breath through blowholes -- I suppose you could call them nostrils. The verse clearly says whatever lived on dry land and breathed through nostrils died -- this would not include whales and dolphins. Don't you think whales and dophins can survive when it rains hard?
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hey buddy, you believe in Noah's account, not us. It says in your fucking bible that animals who breath through nostrils cannot survive. It's your story. You have to defend it.

And yes blowholes are homologues of nostrils. And no the verse doesn't clearly state what you say. Unless you are doped up or a believer who believes whatever he wants to believe.

Woody said:
Also, polar bears and penguins do not live on dry land. They live on ice --so they could survive a flood, assuming ice floats and it doesn't all melt.
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[17] And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

That would include polar bears.

maybe you should read the whole story again, since it seems you are making up most things
http://www.dltk-bible.com/genesis/chapter6-kjv.htm
 
The survivor animals all came to Noah. They were predominanatly insects, birds, reptiles, bovines, mammals, etc. Odviously fish, and other creatures in the water did not come to Noah, nor did they need to.
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What about snails? Isnt there a type that travels only a mile or so a year?
 
Hold on!

I've had an Epiphany.

All these contradictions.
How can they be resolved?
All the pieces fit together perfectly if **Drumroll* the story of Noah was written by somebody who had never seen a polar bear or come across a virus. Somebody who lived in a place so dry biodiversity was limited and a thunderstorm felt like the hand of god.
No planes no trains no automobiles.
Just Donkeys and boats along the coast.
Makes sense to me.

So is it possible that the story of noah was written by somebody like that?
I believe so. It may be a revolutionary theory but it deserves consideration.

Dee Cee
 
I would believe it if Noah only saved his family and livestock, which would be no small accomplishment in a flood situation. Even today people assume moral implications from impersonal weather events.
 
spuriousmonkey said:
hey buddy, you believe in Noah's account, not us. It says in your fucking bible that animals who breath through nostrils cannot survive. It's your story. You have to defend it.
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OK you're right -- unless a whale gets on a boat when it rains in can not survive. :rolleyes:

Here is Gen 6:22 from the NIV

Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died.
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Odviously this isn't a whale. I don't see how it can be any plainer.

And yes blowholes are homologues of nostrils. And no the verse doesn't clearly state what you say. Unless you are doped up or a believer who believes whatever he wants to believe.
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I believe that grammar matters. Nostrils means more than one nostril. Do any whales or dolphins have two blow-holes, or do they just have one, mr. biology? It's irrelevant anyway, because they did not inhabit the dry land. In the whole account of Noah there is absolutely no mention at all of water creatures -- zero. Why should there be? They could take care of themselves.


[17] And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.
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That would include polar bears.
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Here is the verse again:

Everything on dry land that had the breath of life in its nostrils died.
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Would you say a polar bear living near the north pole on a sheet of frozen ocean water -- lives on dry land? Geez you gotta be kidding. The North pole is like hundreds of miles from dry land.

Unless all the ice melted, the polar bears had a place to escape. I would hardly call the north pole dry land. Would you?

maybe you should read the whole story again, since it seems you are making up most things
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I've read it enough times already. It spans Genesis 6, 7, and 8. Here is an interesting verse at the end of Chapt 8:


"As long as the earth endures,
seedtime and harvest,
cold and heat,
summer and winter,
day and night
will never cease."

This is the first mention of seasonality.

The part I'm struggling with right now has to do with all the tropical animals. There would have to be some land bridges and climatic stability.
 
You realize that if we find one land animal that could not have survived on the ark, your whole theory will fall apart?
 
spidergoat said:
You realize that if we find one land animal that could not have survived on the ark, your whole theory will fall apart?
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Absolutely true. Well almost --some species that exist today did not exist then.

And remember one other limitation -- God chooses the very best of each species that are most capable of surviving the voyage and reproducing, then sends them to the arc. They get to prepare themselves for the voyage by fattening up.
 
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Ah ha! Sugar wasn't invented yet.

Making sugar by evaporating cane juice was developed in India about 500 BC. (wikipedia)
 
spidergoat said:
Ah ha! Sugar wasn't invented yet.

Making sugar by evaporating cane juice was developed in India about 500 BC. (wikipedia)
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Sugar crystalizes out of honey on its own. That would help feed the bees too as well as ants and a lot of other insects.

Try again :)
 
spidergoat said:
Honey ferments rapidly when diluted with water and can kill hummingbirds.
http://www.hummingbirds.net/feeders.html
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Any beekeeper knows you never add water to honey, especially after it crystalizes into white sugar. You don't get honey back, and it ferments just like any other sugar and water solution -- all sugar and water solutions ferment -- the yeast that starts the reaction comes from the humming bird's beak.

From your link:

A note about sugars: natural nectars may contain any of the plant sugars, including sucrose, glucose, and fructose. There is no proven advantage in using, say, fructose instead of sucrose (cane or beet sugar). In fact, given the choice, hummingbirds seem to prefer sucrose above all others. Sucrose is by far the most common sugar in the flowers of plants for which hummingbirds are the primary pollenators. Water and sugar (usually sucrose) are the only constituents common to all natural nectars; most also contain traces of minerals and amino acids, but they vary from plant to plant, and probably are of little dietary importance.
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Honey is just a processed form of flower nectar.
 
An aircraft carrier needs regular resupplies to feed its human population. That's 1000 men tops in american aircraft carriers which are twice as big as the ark. Now we are talking about feeding millions of animals (who do not have enough space to be there). Where is the food coming from? Where is the meat stacked to feed 2 lions, 2 tigers, 2 siberian tigers, 2 mountain lions, 2 cheetahs, 2 leopards, 2 wild dogs etc? Meat for a year? For thousands of carnivores.
 
spuriousmonkey said:
An aircraft carrier needs regular resupplies to feed its human population. That's 1000 men tops in american aircraft carriers which are twice as big as the ark. Now we are talking about feeding millions of animals (who do not have enough space to be there). Where is the food coming from? Where is the meat stacked to feed 2 lions, 2 tigers, 2 siberian tigers, 2 mountain lions, 2 cheetahs, 2 leopards, 2 wild dogs etc? Meat for a year? For thousands of carnivores.
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Good, now we are talking about logistics -- that seems to be the biggest challenge.

The representative specimens of each species were the ones best adapted for the ark journey and then reproduction afterward -- according to the bible they were handpicked by God to show up at the ark at the right time (I assume they came well fed.)

Some of the predators and herbivores could hibernate. The food load would decrease. Activity would have to be very low with such confined spaces.
Some animals were brought in batches of sevens, apparantly for feeding predators.

Then there were all the waste products to dispose of. It has been proposed by some creationists that the ark was specifically designed with a trough and drainage system that would function from the continuous flow of water from the highest levels and eventually run off to the ocean. The roof was designed for that purpose. So the most essential elements, water and air, were always available.

To keep the BOD load to a minimum, the animals would have to be fed sparingly. Also, as you pointed out, there wouldn't be that much food around.
 
Woody, this is a completely stupid thread.

Why are you applying logistics and reasoning to a situation in which god could easily have simply put all of the species into suspended animation for the duration? No food required. Also, each "pair" could easily have been reduced in size by an appropriate factor. Or even better, the inside of the ark coud have been trans-dimensional with more than enough space for tens of thousands of creatures.

I don't see the problem.
 
Would he.

Why didn't god simply start over? Was he too afraid to admit his mistakes?
 
Sure, and each human member of Noah's family had a different disease. Noah had syphyllis, his wife had smallpox, and their children had polio, typhus, and athlete's foot.
 
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