Creation Museum Scheduled to open in 2007

[Woody]

you try very hard, don't you woody =] however, you forget one thing: there is absolutely no evidence for what you claim. thicker atmosphere, mist instead of rain, less sun, contiguous continents during the time of man, ect, are all scientifically out of the question.

Then how did man get to all continents? During the time of humanity the bering straights bridged the americas to asia. The rest of the continents are joined with the exception of antartica and australia. Perhaps they had land bridges I don't know. As I already mentioned to SL the ice in the polar regioins would have floated during a great flood -- so those animals wouldn't even care if there was a flood. Life for them would have continued pretty much business-as-usual with the exception of one heck of a lot of snow for 40 days.

The creationism museum will challenge the scientific assumptions you are talking about.

I am waiting for a logistical proof that it (Noah's ark) can't be done.

 

[superluminal]

I am waiting for a logistical proof that it (Noah's ark) can't be done.

Wait a sec. Are you being serious Woody?

 

[Woody]

Wait a sec. Are you being serious Woody?

yeah,

How many modern species of animals would require the ark to survive a 40 day world-wide flood?

remember to subtract out:

- all parasites because they came with a host
- all fresh water and salt water animals
- all microscopic organisms that can not be seen by the human eye
- all polar creatures because the ice caps would have floated

How many animal species would that be? There certainly would be a great number of insects (except those that are larvae in the water), a lot of reptiles, mammals, birds, and some amphibians.

All land plant species are assumed to come back from seeds.

 

[superluminal]

Mammals ~ 5500
Insects ~500000 to 900000
Birds ~10000

 

[Woody]

Mammals ~ 5500
Insects ~500000 to 900000
Birds ~10000

One heck of a lot of insects! I could just about do without that cruise. Of course after the ship completes it's 40 days on the ocean there would be plenty of carcasses and vegetation debris to feed on for a while, but eventually each vegetarian creature would need it's original food source.

 

[spidergoat]

Genetic diversity develops over time. If a species goes through a constriction point, this shows up in the DNA. Humans had such an event, when we were down to about 10,000 people. If animals all decended from a pair around 6,000 years ago, this would be revealed in the DNA, and for the most part, they don't. Their genetic diversity is greater than it would be if they almost went extinct. There are a few exceptions, I think the leopard and a few others.

This can be a real problem in zoos with animals that come back from extinction, like the condor, and other rare species. If the Noah fable was true, most animals would be dead already due to their genetic vulnerability to disease, and birth defects from inbreeding.

 

[Woody]

If the Noah fable was true, most animals would be dead already due to their genetic vulnerability to disease, and birth defects from inbreeding.

I don't know if I buy that one. How do you explain a species getting started? At some point there is a first member of the new species.

Also, dogs are inbreed with some bad consequences, but they live.

 

[(Q)]

yeah,

How many modern species of animals would require the ark to survive a 40 day world-wide flood?

remember to subtract out:

- all parasites because they came with a host

No, all parasites that weren't on a host on the ark.

- all fresh water and salt water animals

With all that fresh water raining down for 40 days, the oceans would have desalinated to the point salt water creatures would probably die.

- all microscopic organisms that can not be seen by the human eye

Again no, all microscopic organisms that didn't make it on the ark.

- all polar creatures because the ice caps would have floated

Then, where did all the water come from to flood the earth, and then, where did all the water go again?

God did it, Woodee?

How many animal species would that be? There certainly would be a great number of insects (except those that are larvae in the water), a lot of reptiles, mammals, birds, and some amphibians.

A lot more than could ever fit on the ark, which must have included all the food and water all those species required to live for 40 days.

How did Noah get on down to Australia to rescue the wallabees?

All land plant species are assumed to come back from seeds.

Assuming all plants at the very moment were seeding.

Isn't it interesting how a Sunday school fairy tale gets blown out of the "water" with a few "drops" of reality?

Silly Woodee.

 

[James R]

Near where I live, there is a rare species of marsupial which lives only above the snow line, in a restricted area on certain mountains. If these mouse-like marsupials descend to lower altitudes they invariably die.

I am wondering how Noah saved these creatures? They couldn't have walked from southern Australia to the Middle East. So, did Noah make a special trip down to pick them up before the flood? And, if so, how did he keep them alive on the ark? Did he have a snow-making machine? And did he collect the specific food they needed as well?

How about dinosaurs? Did they all die in the flood, or did Noah take them onto the ark? If so, how big was this ark of his? It would have to be enormous to fit a pair of each species of dinosaur, along with all the other animals.

What did the leopards and lions eat on the ark?

Who cleaned up all the animal droppings during the 40 days and nights?

Where were the millions of species of venomous snakes and spiders kept?

I hope you can help me with these questions, Woody.

 

[cato]

when this creationist "museum" opens, we should round up a bunch of people to bust each of the fallacies presented and hand out leaflets of truth in front of the "exhibits". I live in Michigan, and could get a couple of people to drive down I bet. it's only a few hours for me.

anyone else, who is on the side of evidence, live within driving distance?

I wonder if there is a way to find out exactly what will be displayed, beforehand. I could do preemptive research and hit the place on it's first weekend, when most people are likely to be there.

 

[cato]

all I can find is a undetailed walkthrough, but it contains the funniest caption I have ever heard:

The Bible is true. No doubt about it! Paul explains God’s authoritative Word, and everyone who rejects His history—including six-day creation and Noah’s Flood—is ‘willfully’ ignorant.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/museum/walkthrough/

I wonder if they will have wifi, I could bring my laptop and do real-time myth busting with you guys =]

 

[SnakeLord]

agreed -- it would require compartments and cages. Noah had afew hundred years to work on it with his 3 sons

You need something to support your claim. Saying "Noah has a few hundred years" doesn't actually have any value whatsoever unless you can back it up.

What would it take to make it credible?

It doesn't even need to be made. We all know the Noah story is nonsense.

Hence a boat.

They got to the ark by boat?

hmmm, and there are about 1.5 million species according to SM?

That is the current known, (and there's most likely many more). In the 1980's five new species of monkey were found in Brazil alone and every year 20,000 new insects are named. We would also need to add every animal that has gone extinct in the time since Noah's journey.

Then we have to * that number by 2 as an absolute minimum. Ok, there is the occasional hermaphrodite, but the * 2 figure is actually rather generous given that all "clean" animals were to have 7 taken on board and to fulfill your claim that Noah took extra animals on board as food.

I'm not Noah and I don't get to live 600 plus years.

Certainly, but then I am not asking you to get 3 million animals, but just two animals. If he could manage to get 3 million in seven days, I'm sure you can manage two in one year.

Are you assuming male and female of each?

Assuming? No.

"From all living creatures, from all living things, you must take two of each kind aboard the ark.. they must be a male and female."

Are you subtracting all water creatures, parasites that come with a host, microscopic species?

I did subtract all animals that live in the water, yes.. even though god told him he must take two of every kind of animal, (which invariably includes animals that live in the water). Many others here have highlighted the problem that water dwelling animals would have, so they should be included.

I see no reason to subtract parasites or microscopic creatures.

As I said before, the animals would have instincts triggered through divine intervention.

Again you would need to support this, and this still would not solve the issue of how a South American frog would make it all the way to Noah's boat.

Animals behave differently during a great disaster. I remember a cougar, a fox, a jackrabbit, and several other competitors, predators, and tasty morsels sharing a cave during a forest fire. It was a universal truce.

At this moment in time, no "great disaster" exists. Life is going along as it usually does. It isn't until all those animals are tucked on the ark that the "great disaster" begins. As such your statement has no value.

If there were polar bears then there were icebergs -- right? icebergs float don't they? Would a polar bear or any other arctic creature need to come on board the ship?

Yes, they would. god clearly stipulates that every creature must go on the ark. I mean come on, what makes you think two polar bears on an iceberg would survive when all animals, (including polar bears), were dead by the end of the flood? They needed to be on the ark. You have no case.

The bible doesn't say that all ice melted during the flood.

Talking of what the bible doesn't say..

It doesn't say "noah had a few hundred years"

It doesn't say "the animals had a universal truce"

It doesn't say "the animals instincts were triggered by divine intervention"

You're in no position to use the "it isn't in the bible" argument when you haven't used it yourself once in this entire discussion. Woody, you're being a hypocrite.

 

[Hapsburg]

Also, dogs are inbreed with some bad consequences, but they live.

Yeah, but they're dumb as shit. Fuck, a lobster is smarter than most dogs, and a potato is smarter than a couple individual canines I know.

 

[Silas]

What would it take to make it credible?

Well, to quote Roy Schieder, for one thing, "You're gonna need a bigger boat". Seriously, though, you spent most of the time asking for a credible disproof of the Noah story, and then when someone calls the whole thing a fairy tale, you instead ask what would it take to make it credible? I don't believe there are cast iron means to specifically rule out the story of Noah, based only on physical measurements of a boat, using the present day knowledge of every single creature, which is kind of irrelevant, or demonstrating knowldege of the history of the Earth which shows no evidence for a global flood in the (disputed anyway) timeframe. The fairy tale nature of the story lies in its very absolutism, that Noah was told to collect every single animal, two of each of the unclean and of the clean "by sevens" (which apparently is interpreted as seven pairs of animals), keep them happy on a boat, no, not for 40 days, but for about half a year. Also that enough water to cover the entire earth up to the tallest mountains, necessarily involves many times the volume of water currently available on earth. (Incidentally, the physical requirements for this are perfectly well described in the Biblical story. Given the image of the globe of the heaven-and-earth floating in a limitless ocean, the flood was provided by "breaking up the fountains of the deep and opening the windows of heaven", in other words poking holes in the structure that keeps the "waters" out. Unfortunately, of course, we now know that the sky is not a solid structure, and that the amounts of water outside the atmosphere are vanishingly small.)

It's fairy tale nature is too obvious to require any serious justification for a substantial "disproof". Of course, Noah could do these things, if he was 600 years old, and if all the animals came to him, and if ..... But how any rational person could read it literally is totally beyond me. It's even fairly difficult to actually read the whole story of the Flood (Genesis chapters 6 and 7) and make coherent sense out of it, given that it's actually two different versions of a flood tale that actually give two incommensurate sets of dates and periods.


EDIT much later: Dammit, this was my 1000th post, and I missed it!

 

[Woody]

Well, to quote Roy Schieder, for one thing, "You're gonna need a bigger boat". Seriously, though, you spent most of the time asking for a credible disproof of the Noah story, and then when someone calls the whole thing a fairy tale, you instead ask what would it take to make it credible?

Credible to him, not me. This question is posed to him so the gap can explained. It would be like asking me -- "what would it take to make human evolution credible?" Answer: DNA evidence for one thing.

I don't believe there are cast iron means to specifically rule out the story of Noah, based only on physical measurements of a boat, using the present day knowledge of every single creature, which is kind of irrelevant, or demonstrating knowldege of the history of the Earth which shows no evidence for a global flood in the (disputed anyway) timeframe.

Timeframe is debatable, but there is no question about it here in the central USA -- we were underwater on at least one occassion. The nearest ocean is now 600 miles away. The theory proposed by creationists, is that a lot of the ancient fossils werre redeposited during the flood.

The fairy tale nature of the story lies in its very absolutism, that Noah was told to collect every single animal,

No that's not true, here's the quote from genesis 6:

19 You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. 20 Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive. 21 You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them."

The survivor animals all came to Noah. They were predominanatly insects, birds, reptiles, bovines, mammals, etc. Odviously fish, and other creatures in the water did not come to Noah, nor did they need to.

two of each of the unclean and of the clean "by sevens" (which apparently is interpreted as seven pairs of animals), keep them happy on a boat, no, not for 40 days, but for about half a year.

Actually about 8 to 9 months.

Also that enough water to cover the entire earth up to the tallest mountains, necessarily involves many times the volume of water currently available on earth. (Incidentally, the physical requirements for this are perfectly well described in the Biblical story. Given the image of the globe of the heaven-and-earth floating in a limitless ocean, the flood was provided by "breaking up the fountains of the deep and opening the windows of heaven", in other words poking holes in the structure that keeps the "waters" out. Unfortunately, of course, we now know that the sky is not a solid structure, and that the amounts of water outside the atmosphere are vanishingly small.)

I've already provided the information on the extent of the water on earth, and the bible quote that it had not rained on the earth, but the earth was watered by a mist -- meaning the atmosphere was different. There is enough water to cover the earth about 10 miles deep, assuming it is flat. Breaking up the fountains of the deep changed the earth's geology.

It's fairy tale nature is too obvious to require any serious justification for a substantial "disproof". Of course, Noah could do these things, if he was 600 years old, and if all the animals came to him, and if ..... But how any rational person could read it literally is totally beyond me. It's even fairly difficult to actually read the whole story of the Flood (Genesis chapters 6 and 7) and make coherent sense out of it, given that it's actually two different versions of a flood tale that actually give two incommensurate sets of dates and periods.

I'm looking at the ice ages for answers. What is the oldest ice found on the earth? Ice probably would have survived a flood.

 

[Woody]

SL said:

I did subtract all animals that live in the water, yes.. even though god told him he must take two of every kind of animal, (which invariably includes animals that live in the water).

God also said the animals would come to him (Gen 6:20) -- which kind of rules out fish.

Many others here have highlighted the problem that water dwelling animals would have, so they should be included.

What problems would the water dwellers have? The top layer of the ocean would be fresh water (wherever it rained) and the lower layers would be salt water, assuming it rains continuously. Elsewhere in the ocean the water would be salinated (wherever it did not rain continuously). Undoubtedly some of them would not survive, hence they would be extinct.

I see no reason to subtract parasites or microscopic creatures.

Most animals have parasites, so when the animal comes he /she brings the parasites. So are you saying Noah had to groom every creature then put the parasites back on the animals to meet some exact specification?

As for the microscopic ones -- they would have to come on board without being noticed. Perhaps they could be cultured. Odviously they wouldn't take up much room.

So again SL,

Assuming all the creatures came to you, how big of a task would it be, how big of a ship, how much food? Air and water weren't a problem. Odviously a task like this would take divine assistance, but remember that Noah was 600 years old at the time and had a wife, 3 sons, and their wives.

 

[SnakeLord]

God also said the animals would come to him (Gen 6:20) -- which kind of rules out fish.

It says nothing of the sort.

Further to which, why would it rule out fish? They would still be able to swim to him and he could then put them in a fishbowl no? I mean, every other animal apparently had to do that exact thing. How else would the Koalas have got to him all the way from Australia, or the 'slow worm' have got to him all the way from London, England?

What problems would the water dwellers have?

The main problem being that god stated he was going to kill every living thing under the heavens, (other than what was on the ark). Of course other problems have been mentioned including fresh water vs salt water issues. Your "excuse" for that is nothing but a fully unsupported assumption that doesn't really hold any weight as far as reality is concerned.

Most animals have parasites, so when the animal comes he /she brings the parasites.

O..k, but you then wouldn't subtract parasites from the animal count because they'd still be there.. no?

So are you saying Noah had to groom every creature then put the parasites back on the animals to meet some exact specification?

Well, to ensure he did in fact have a male and female of every species, then to a degree - yes, he would have to check.

Assuming all the creatures came to you

An unsurpported assumption.

how big of a task would it be, how big of a ship, how much food?

A massive mammoth of a task. A task that is simply impossible.

Odviously a task like this would take divine assistance

An unsupported assumption.

 

[spuriousmonkey]

Timeframe is debatable, but there is no question about it here in the central USA -- we were underwater on at least one occassion. The nearest ocean is now 600 miles away. The theory proposed by creationists, is that a lot of the ancient fossils werre redeposited during the flood.

unfortunately for you that wasn't because of a global flood.

I've already provided the information on the extent of the water on earth, and the bible quote that it had not rained on the earth, but the earth was watered by a mist -- meaning the atmosphere was different. There is enough water to cover the earth about 10 miles deep, assuming it is flat. Breaking up the fountains of the deep changed the earth's geology.

And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

It says flood, not mist.

what does it say more:

[20] Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

Mountains were covered, not broken down.


[21] And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man:

[22] All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

Dolphins died. whales died. Their nostrils have the breath of life.

[23] And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

This suggest that also all plants, bacteria died. They are living substance. Only organisms in the ark survived.

[11] And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth.

olive bushes can survive 10 months of submersion in salt water? No.

 

[DeeCee]

He didn't have to know all species. Also remember that a single species back then could have speciated into several that we find today.

Gosh! what process could allow that to happen?

As for the fish...

Was the flood fresh or saltwater?
Assuming it covered the planet either fresh water or marine fish were due to suffer big time...

Woody

Do you really believe that a 600 year old man built a wooden boat as big as an aircraft carrier and then sat around waiting for two of every species to come to him for rescue or are you just pullin' my leg?

Have you heard the one about the dude who flies around the world giving presents for every child on the planet after climbing down their chimney?
The amazing thing is he does it All in one night!!

What about the flying midget women who swap money for kiddies teeth

I'm not sure if these characters really exist but unless somebody proves different I will insist that they do.

I don't care how stupid people think I am 'cos I know I'm blessed.

Dee Cee

 

[Woody]

[22] All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

Dolphins died. whales died. Their nostrils have the breath of life.

These mammals breath through blowholes -- I suppose you could call them nostrils. The verse clearly says whatever lived on dry land and breathed through nostrils died -- this would not include whales and dolphins. Don't you think whales and dophins can survive when it rains hard?

Also, polar bears and penguins do not live on dry land. They live on ice --so they could survive a flood, assuming ice floats and it doesn't all melt.

It says flood, not mist.

Before the flood it had not rained.

Gen 2:6

But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

[20] Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

Mountains were covered, not broken down.

Actually the land level had to be raised so the water could drain off. Or the sea floor would have to be lowered -- perhaps both.

This suggest that also all plants, bacteria died. They are living substance. Only organisms in the ark survived.

Would a flood kill bacteria?

olive bushes can survive 10 months of submersion in salt water? No.

If it was uprooted, and floated around in fresh water on the ocean surface, then perhaps. This is assuming it rains hard enough to maintain a fresh water strata. With all the additional rain the salinity of the water would have to drop some. I've seen local nurseries preserve trees for months with no soil on the roots with constant watering. I bought some cherry trees that did just fine after about 3 months with no soil.