Color Of Crime!!!

[Joeman]

Re: Oh please

Originally posted by overdoze
Might this have possibly something to do with the fact that a disproportionate number of blacks still live in slum conditions amid inescapable poverty and rampant organized crime?

True

It's quite different when you compare institutionalized discrimination against a random white tourist being gunned down in some ghetto.

Institutionalized discrimination? Like what?

This is not to say that the situation vis a vis discrimination has not vastly improved to date. It's certainly better than it ever was.

Discrimination is human nature. It can be eased with education, but there will always be discrimination. It is better to just live with it (yes I can say that because I am mostly a person of color) than to constantly whine about it. Some racial rivalry can be a good thing. My entire life I definitely benefited from being discriminated against. It just pushes me to work harder.

But social justice will never truly be served until blacks are afforded the same standard of living, education and opportunity as any other racial/ethnic group in US (including whites.)

Oh please please. Social justice will never be served until blacks decide to strive for better social standings with concrete actions - such as hardwork and discipline. In the past blacks tried to obtain equal opportunities by crying about discrimination. It will only work to a certain point. What you just said would just add fuel to their victim mentality. Both blacks and whites need to do their parts, but ultimately only blacks people can end discrimination against black people. You don't need equal opportunities or standard of living to succeed. Asians are doing pretty well last time I checked. They just leap froged whites in SAT score. Jews are also discriminated against, especially early 1900's.

Until that glorious time when we finally recognize that poverty, not race is the decisive factor in behavioral trends, we'll just have to put up with the typical racist crap as exemplified by your post.

His posts are backed with facts and figures. You may not like his intent, but there is a lot of truth to it.

There are other things that need to be done but not real obvious. Only 30 some percent of black males have pursued post high school education. 60+% of black females have a college degree. The biggest reason according to survey is that they have to support kids. They have to be the bread winner at a young age. If they can stop fucking around without a condom they will be fine. Of course we can always find an excuse for that, like poverty.

 

[Joeman]

Originally posted by static76
More stupidity..., check out the FBI stats is you don't believe me.

http://www.publiceye.org/hate/Statistics.htm

More lies.

That site doesn't really tell what race commits hate crime to what race. It only tells who the receiving end is. I have heard there are twice as many black on whites than whites on blacks before many times. I heard it on MSNBC and Fox.

 

[static76]

His posts are backed with facts and figures. You may not like his intent, but there is a lot of truth to it.

NO, his posts are backed by lies and exaggerations.

The site he got those "stats" from is http://www.amren.com

Here are some of the Books and Tapes this site sells, tell me if you see a theme...

"Race, Evolution, and Behavior"
"The Relationship Between Blacks and Jews"
"Is There a Superior Race?"
"Equality Unmasked"
"Multiculturalism and the War against White America"
"Race and Nation"
"The Real American Dilemma"
"Race: European Developments"
"Race and the American Right"
"Latest Research on Race"
"Prospects for the New Century"
"The Nationalist Movement in France"
"Racial Hysteria in Britain"
"The Reconquista of California"
"Race and the Real U.S. Constitution"
"Ethnic Nationalism and Genetic-Similarity Theory"
"The Biological Reality of Race"
"The Decline of WASPdom"
"A (Real) Conservative in NYC Politics"
"Why You Are Wrong"
"Racial Partition of the United States"
"Saving Our Civilization"
"Immigration: the Silent Invasion"

Hmmmmm......

It's obvious that this is a propaganda site for White supremists.

 

[Joeman]

I agree. That site is not credible at all.

 

[lotuseatsvipers]

It's obvious that this is a propaganda site for White supremists.

Well that wouldn't matter if there were some kind of meaning to those statistics. Even if they are 100% they mean nothing.

I agree, and I have no idea why JOE is getting this guys back.

Actually I wouldn't be suprised if this is just an attempt to troll, I can't imagine anyone actually coming onto sciforums and believe this hogwash.

 

[Joeman]

Originally posted by lotuseatsvipers
I agree, and I have no idea why JOE is getting this guys back.

I don't either.

Tell you the truth, if someone's post is longer than 10 lines and not very interesting, I never read through the whole thing.

 

[lotuseatsvipers]

I agree. That site is not credible at all.

Eh? Joe you confuse me

I guess you don't have that guys back. anyways....

sorry

 

[spookz]

Originally posted by Joeman


Oh please please. Social justice will never be served until blacks decide to strive for better social standings with concrete actions - such as hardwork and discipline. In the past blacks tried to obtain equal opportunities by crying about discrimination. It will only work to a certain point. What you just said would just add fuel to their victim mentality. Both blacks and whites need to do their parts, but ultimately only blacks people can end discrimination against black people. You don't need equal opportunities or standard of living to succeed. Asians are doing pretty well last time I checked. They just leap froged whites in SAT score. Jews are also discriminated against, especially early 1900's.

well here is one who strived for better social standings with concrete actions

"An African American judge from Virginia who is suing the LAPD for alleged racial profiling described in federal court Tuesday how police ordered her out of a car at gunpoint, then forced her to lie face down on the hot pavement while in handcuffs after a traffic stop in Venice."

bet they follow her sorry ass around the store too!

full story(membership unfortunately)

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-judges31jul31.story?null




does institutional racism mean anything to you joeman?

"I think in part, this state has a false image of itself ... that we [are] different from the rest of the U.S., and we're not. We're as racist as the red hills of Alabama." Chief Judge Kevin Burke, Hennepin County District Court.

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/03justice/justice02a.htm

 

[Joeman]

Re: Re: Re: Oh please

Originally posted by spookz


well here is one who strived for better social standings with concrete actions

"An African American judge from Virginia who is suing the LAPD for alleged racial profiling described in federal court Tuesday how police ordered her out of a car at gunpoint, then forced her to lie face down on the hot pavement while in handcuffs after a traffic stop in Venice."

bet they follow her sorry ass around the store too!

That is not exactly what I have in mind. The best way to end racial profiling on blacks is for blacks not to commit any crimes.

does institutional racism mean anything to you joeman?

"I think in part, this state has a false image of itself ... that we [are] different from the rest of the U.S., and we're not. We're as racist as the red hills of Alabama." Chief Judge Kevin Burke, Hennepin County District Court.

http://academic.udayton.edu/race/03justice/justice02a.htm

People are racist. Institutions are made of people. People can always move.

 

[spookz]

 

[lotuseatsvipers]

Tell you the truth, if someone's post is longer than 10 lines and not very interesting, I never read through the whole thing.

And I think everyone does that. I have wondered many times if people do not understand what writing for an audience means at this site. Some people, especially on the religion folder will write something a 100+ lines long, I will have to be in a really good mood to read it (doesn't happen often).

State things short and concise or your point will never be heard!

ps. the java buttons aren't working tonight!

 

[overdoze]

Re: Re: Oh please

Originally posted by Joeman
Institutionalized discrimination? Like what?

For example employment or housing discrimination, harsher sentencing/treatment for crime, lowered standards of achievement.

Discrimination is human nature. It can be eased with education, but there will always be discrimination. It is better to just live with it (yes I can say that because I am mostly a person of color) than to constantly whine about it.

It's one thing to whine about it, and another altogether to try and remove some of the fundamental factors that drive it. (More later.) Of course, in the latter context you must still talk about it.

Some racial rivalry can be a good thing. My entire life I definitely benefited from being discriminated against. It just pushes me to work harder.

Good for you that you benefited. However, personally I think a rivalry based on race is a sick notion to begin with.

Oh please please. Social justice will never be served until blacks decide to strive for better social standings with concrete actions - such as hardwork and discipline.

Discipline comes from family tradition. Absent that, it can only come through educational institutions. And if those suck to the point of being staffed by incompetent personnel (with the PE teacher heading up the science curriculum, substitutes teaching English and History on a full-time continuous basis, etc.), overran by gangs, lacking any coherent curriculum and missing even the funding to buy chalk for blackboards (for real; I actually graduated from such a school!) then we really are talking about inequality of opportunity.

Rich folk get a leg up from the moment they are born. The playing field with respect to opportunity must be leveled. That would be social justice.

What you just said would just add fuel to their victim mentality.

There's no question a victim mentality contributes to the problem. But it's not the entire problem.

You don't need equal opportunities or standard of living to succeed. Asians are doing pretty well last time I checked. They just leap froged whites in SAT score. Jews are also discriminated against, especially early 1900's.

That's the thing: most of the ones who are doing well are first- or second-generation immigrants. They or their parents grew up in different social conditions, received much higher quality education and grew into much more disciplined and goal-oriented lifestyles. American blacks do not have such a heritage.

And this is the depressing part. Apparently, old Soviet Union or China or even India can do a better job raising kids than the "wonderful" US.

His posts are backed with facts and figures. You may not like his intent, but there is a lot of truth to it.

Partial and biased facts, and distorted figures out of context. As many have already pointed out. Truth is in the eye of the beholder; you might have observed that in many eyes on this forum those "facts" have little truth. This might tell you something about the objectivity of the "figures" -- depending on what you think about the constituency of these forums.

If they can stop fucking around without a condom they will be fine. Of course we can always find an excuse for that, like poverty.

Well, actually I agree. Black kids (especially poor ones) tend to have an unhealthy early obsession with sex -- at least according to my experience. That part of the culture needs to change.

But funny you mention poverty: early/single pregnancy (as well as rampant venerial diseases) tend to go hand-in-hand with it not just in US but everywhere around the world. It's a mutual feedback cycle. It might have something to do with the fact that poverty leads to a lifestyle poor in new stimuli and experiences, so people resort to sex and crime to restore some sort of a poignancy to their lives. In fact, sexual infatuations and acts are very much like drugs, chemically as well as psychologically. Chemically, they tend to release "endorphins" into the brain, which are a natural family of chemicals in the same group as morphine. Hence, when leading a dull life full of hardship it's easy to get hooked on the esape, release and euphoria of sex. Similar for the adrenaline rush of crime.

 

[Increan]

Azreal,

You wasted a lot of time posting this thread when either no one cares or........nope no one cares

 

[Joeman]

Re: Re: Re: Oh please

Originally posted by overdoze

For example employment or housing discrimination, harsher sentencing/treatment for crime, lowered standards of achievement.

Well, that maybe true, but as I said only black people can end racism against black people. If they spend time building on their resume, get perfect credit ratings, but not commit any crimes they would be fine. Ending racism is a two way street. We must do our part and they must do theirs as well.

It's one thing to whine about it, and another altogether to try and remove some of the fundamental factors that drive it. (More later.) Of course, in the latter context you must still talk about it.

What I was getting at is going overboard on crusade against racism and political correctness will harm more than hurt. The reason is the same as raising an infant industry in a country. You protect them in the beginning but you have to slowly remove the protection or they never grow. They have to get used to and make progress in the environment of racism instead of saying they will never make any progress until racism is removed altogether. The biggest reason I support reparation of slavery is that after you pay them off, you can call it "even". There will one less excuse.

That's the thing: most of the ones who are doing well are first- or second-generation immigrants. They or their parents grew up in different social conditions, received much higher quality education and grew into much more disciplined and goal-oriented lifestyles. American blacks do not have such a heritage.

Well, the interesting thing is people are waiting for 2nd generation Asian immigrants to fall the same level as Whites, but that is not happening. According the latest SAT statistics I saw, Asians not only maintain their lead in math, they are closing the gap in English.

And this is the depressing part. Apparently, old Soviet Union or China or even India can do a better job raising kids than the "wonderful" US.

That is because the mentality in US is "No kids will fall behind". Therefore all kids fall behind. The classes are taught at a speed that even the dumbest kids can catch up. In Asia, kids are seperated into different classes according to their test scores. Classes with smarter kids go at a faster speed. It doesn't happen until junior high though. In US that will never happen, because what you will see is mostly Asians and Jews in highest level, Whites next and then blacks and hispanics on the bottom. Schools will appear to be segregated by race. Asian education is better simply because the classes go at a faster pace basically. One lesson we learn from them is that the system is far more important than the funding. In US we put more money per student than any country in the world, but test scores are mediocre.

Well, I am not sure If I agree with your theory on the sex part. China is poor, but the Chinese are one of the most sexually deprived country in the world A married couple in US have sex over 100 times per year, France is about 120+, China is about 60+ and Japan is 40+. Japan is the most sexually deprived country in the world

 

[overdoze]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Oh please

Originally posted by Joeman
Ending racism is a two way street. We must do our part and they must do theirs as well.

True enough.

You protect them in the beginning but you have to slowly remove the protection or they never grow.

I agree. Which is the reason I support the end of "affirmative action" as we know it. Though I'd prefer to keep it around in a non-racial (but rather, income-based) form.

The biggest reason I support reparation of slavery is that after you pay them off, you can call it "even". There will one less excuse.

I support it too, but I don't think it would make things 'even'. We still have to level the playing field.

My basic platform is that all people are born equal, and as a result should have the same opportunities and tools in life regardless of whether they are born into a rich or poor family with non-existant or strong work ethic. It's a matter of basic fairness toward each individual. This sort of total equality is in practice impossible, but I believe it can be approximated quite effectively.

As for the need for people to change, I'm with you. However, you have to realize that people can't just change. There will be certain strong-willed exceptions, but overall habits die hard. The best place to foster change is with children. More affluent segments of society must contribute more to improve the development and therefore general attitude of children growing up in poverty.

Well, the interesting thing is people are waiting for 2nd generation Asian immigrants to fall the same level as Whites, but that is not happening. According the latest SAT statistics I saw, Asians not only maintain their lead in math, they are closing the gap in English.

Probably has to do with Asian culture being very family-oriented, so traditions tend to be passed quite efficiently from one generation to the next. Eventually they will even out, as they become "Americanized." I've witnessed this firsthand.

One lesson we learn from them is that the system is far more important than the funding. In US we put more money per student than any country in the world, but test scores are mediocre.

Don't even get me started on the US system. The problems are far more insidious and numerous than you mentioned. What really bugs me, is the apparent "not invented here" syndrome of the US grade school establishment. If other countries are kicking the shit out of us, what would be so wrong in copying the models that actually work instead of trying to reinvent the wheel??

But as for funding, the facts are misleading. "Per student" funding is a national average. In reality, schools in affluent neighborhoods receive orders of magnitude more money than poor schools. Most schools in US are funded overwhelmingly from local property taxes and/or bonds, which is a bummer for poor localities with low real estate prices and few potential bond investors. This is a fundamental injustice.

China is poor, but the Chinese are one of the most sexually deprived country in the world A married couple in US have sex over 100 times per year, France is about 120+, China is about 60+ and Japan is 40+. Japan is the most sexually deprived country in the world

But take note: China and Japan are among the most overpopulated countries in the world. How did they get there? It might also help that their cultures tend to be so much more uptight and full of complexes. Not a desirable way to live, IMHO...

 

[static76]

Originally posted by Joeman

Well, that maybe true, but as I said only black people can end racism against black people. If they spend time building on their resume, get perfect credit ratings, but not commit any crimes they would be fine. Ending racism is a two way street. We must do our part and they must do theirs as well.

No offense, but do you know what racism is? Why do you say that "only black people can end racism against black people", that's a ridiculous statement. Last time I checked, ALL so-called "races" commit crimes. MOST Blacks are middle-class citizens like yourself, go to work, pay their taxes, and serve their country, just like everyone else.

What I was getting at is going overboard on crusade against racism and political correctness will harm more than hurt. The reason is the same as raising an infant industry in a country. You protect them in the beginning but you have to slowly remove the protection or they never grow. They have to get used to and make progress in the environment of racism instead of saying they will never make any progress until racism is removed altogether. The biggest reason I support reparation of slavery is that after you pay them off, you can call it "even". There will one less excuse.

What crusade are you reffering to, and can you please explain what "political correctness is? Didn't that phrase come from Metal Bands in the late 80's, talking about the Conservative Grammy Awards not having a category for them.

How did it turn into the republican motto...

 

[static76]

The biggest reason I support reparation of slavery is that after you pay them off, you can call it "even". There will one less excuse.

Very few Blacks want reparations. There are about 40 million of us in the country, so even if there was a 4 billion settlement we would only recieve $100 a person.

Plus why make this generation pay for what a past one did, all that would do is cause resentment.
Reparations are a horrible idea.

 

[Joeman]

Originally posted by static76
No offense, but do you know what racism is?

No. Don't you need some kind of double PH.D. for that?

Why do you say that "only black people can end racism against black people", that's a ridiculous statement.

How so?

Last time I checked, ALL so-called "races" commit crimes. MOST Blacks are middle-class citizens like yourself, go to work, pay their taxes, and serve their country, just like everyone else.

If blacks are exactly the same social economics ladder, there wouldn't be racism to speak of. Last time I checked, blacks do commit more crimes porportional to their population.

What crusade are you reffering to, and can you please explain what "political correctness is? Didn't that phrase come from Metal Bands in the late 80's, talking about the Conservative Grammy Awards not having a category for them.

How did it turn into the republican motto...

Why is this relevant? Why don't you go first.

Very few Blacks want reparations. There are about 40 million of us in the country, so even if there was a 4 billion settlement we would only recieve $100 a person.

Plus why make this generation pay for what a past one did, all that would do is cause resentment.
Reparations are a horrible idea.

4 billion is only enough to pay Johnny Cockran.

 

[static76]

No. Don't you need some kind of double PH.D. for that?

No, just common sense...

How so?

Because nothing a "Black" person will change the minds of a racist. Do you think anything would change the KKK's mind about Blacks and Jews. Did the Jews in Germany cause Hitler to be racist against them. Did the Blacks who were segragated bring this on themselves??

I think not.

If blacks are exactly the same social economics ladder, there wouldn't be racism to speak of. Last time I checked, blacks do commit more crimes porportional to their population.

I never said that Blacks are in the same economic ladder as Whites. I said that most are middle-class, and serve and work for America just like any other "group".

Why is this relevant? Why don't you go first.

Hey, you brought it up, not me.

4 billion is only enough to pay Johnny Cockran.

 

[ssivakami]

Originally posted by Azrael
When will the truth on racism be told?
THE COLOR OF CRIME ... <snip> ...

First someone advocates destroying entire countries because they are "bad" and now someone else wants to discriminate based on race .... I'm getting a pretty good idea about the ethos on this site []

Just a few points ...

1. Correlation does not imply causation. If 2 phenomena (for eg. propensity to crime and race) show a positive correlation, then it does not necessarily mean that one caused the other - it could very well mean that a third factor (for eg. poverty, lack of education, poor health care etc) caused both.

2. Discrimination is wrong, not because there are no average differences between groups. There are. Its wrong because intra-group variance is far more than inter-group variance. And by pegging each member of the group into an average slot, you ignore this intra-group variance altogether.

- Sivakami.