City Revives Paddling, sees major improvement in Behavior

[Bells]

How should the parents be made responsible? What do you propose. I, for one, am fed up with irresponsible parents.
There are two types of bullies. One is the product of an abusive home. Here I agree this would have a negative message. The child only knows of an abusive pattern.
The other type, which is becoming more common, is the kid who parents encourage this type of behavior or just plain don't care. Again, if not with this threat of paddling over their head, what then? By the way, it is my personal experience these kids are the hardest to get a message through. They truely could care less what anyone says and continues their behavior, almost with satisfaction of a job well done on their part!

How should parents be made responsible for their children?

I am amazed that question actually needs to be asked, to be honest. Should parents expect others to teach their children between right and wrong? Parents should be held responsible for their children's behaviour. If a child continuously misbehaves at school and the parents do nothing about it and merely expect the school to fix the issue, then the child should not be allowed to return to school unless the parents actually do something. You know, actually take some responsibility for their children.

Provide the parents with support and educate the parents about how to get the message across without violence, maybe?

And I'll take that as an admission on your part that you have No Evidence to support the claim upon which you made other claims.

So you would be fine with teachers giving your son a few hard whacks on the backside with a slab of timber?

Apparently, school administration- After they call me to confirm and discuss his behavior.


See, kids act DIFFERENTLY around other people when their parents aren't around.

So you would want to consent to having your son hit first? What if the policy does not involve letting the parents know beforehand? What if you refuse and they do it anyway?

 

[Neverfly]

Poor kid.

No, not really.
See, I HIGHLY doubt my son would ever get that.

And I'll step outside my usual self and say Fuck Your Punk Ass for saying such a thing about my son.

Or, to reiterate, since you apparently need it:

But in Temple, a city just outside Fort Hood that shakes with the air horns of the trains that pass through its rail yards, many residents say they hope that the old-fashioned solution can address what they see as rising disrespect among youth. They say their discipline problems aren't different from those in any other school system in the country: students showing up late for class, or violating the dress code, or talking during lessons. Those habits were unheard of in the days when schoolteachers routinely swung a paddle, they say.​

This is anecdotal and refers to examples given by some interviewed.

Again- Do You Have Evidence.

For someone who accuses me of an inability to read, you're not doing a great job of it, yourself.

And yet, to reiterate yet again:

Usually, a long, flat wooden paddle is used to give as many as three blows across the student's clothed rear end, although Farmer found students who had been hit many more times.​

Ok, you reiterated that ONE example again. I said "bravo" and you heard "Encore."

Let's try this again: Do you Have Evidence that Abusive Administrators are Standard Or Even Common?

And you accuse me of dodging?

To reiterate:

Do you have any evidence for how pronounced that change of behavior is? All I saw was a vague claim from someone who has vested interest.​

Did you miss it the first time? Or just dodge it?

Neither, I answered it clearly. Try that reading thing you accused me of being unable to do.

Scroll up..
There you go... That's a Big Boy. Good Job!

And all living in fear appears to have done was teach you to be afraid.

Apparently, you are the one who still fears that paddle.​

 

[Mr MacGillivray]

you can't paddle terrorists but you can paddle children?

 

[Neverfly]

you can't paddle terrorists but you can paddle children?

Hey, I say paddle them, too.

In fact, gimmie the paddle, I'll do it my damn self.

 

[mordea]

Should parents expect others to teach their children between right and wrong? Parents should be held responsible for their children's behaviour. If a child continuously misbehaves at school and the parents do nothing about it and merely expect the school to fix the issue, then the child should not be allowed to return to school unless the parents actually do something. You know, actually take some responsibility for their children.

A parent should not be held responsible for their child's behaviour at school. If the staff fail to adequately monitor and correct undesirable behaviour, then that is *their* fault.

If parents are compelled to relinquish control over their children by sending them to a public school, then they can't be held responsible for what occurs when they aren't watching over their children. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Tiassa]

This and that

Refer to my post 24. The simple idea of a child knowing there are consequences such as that (not even paddling) eliminates most behavior.

You know what else works? Trying to understand a child's behavior. Admittedly, that requires more effort than just smacking the kid, so I can understand why some people might favor the violent approach.

No where in the article did it say that a child was paddled for being late.

Your point being?

I would never support the idea of a disabled or mentally challenged being paddled. Disgusting.

That may be you and me, but that is also one of the results of corporal punishment in schools that its advocates are happy enough to dodge or ignore.

The one child that was paddled in this school was given permission by parents. Does not say that those parents spanked their own child at home though. Read the entire article, there is a link in the OP.

(chortle!)

I already have. Maybe you didn't notice. Or maybe you just didn't care.

And no, the school was not "given permission", according to the article. I mean, sure, permission is implicit. But the school was asked by the parents to do it. At least, according to the article.

• • •​

And I'll step outside my usual self and say Fuck Your Punk Ass for saying such a thing about my son.

Actually, I was implying more about what an awful parent you must be.

This is anecdotal and refers to examples given by some interviewed.

Again- Do You Have Evidence.

For someone who accuses me of an inability to read, you're not doing a great job of it, yourself.

Okay, let's start with this: Why are you asking for evidence?

Ok, you reiterated that ONE example again. I said "bravo" and you heard "Encore."

Let's try this again: Do you Have Evidence that Abusive Administrators are Standard Or Even Common?

And you accuse me of dodging?

Something about reading goes here. First off, many is more than one. I would have figured even you could understand that. Secondly, I would point out that the one example I referred to was specific, a kid beaten until the paddle broke, and then beaten some more. Maybe you should go back and read that part again.

Neither, I answered it clearly. Try that reading thing you accused me of being unable to do.

You answered it clearly by reiterating your claim and failing to address the point of contention.

Apparently, you are the one who still fears that paddle.

No. I'm just trying to be a better parent than ruling my daughter through fear.

 

[Mr MacGillivray]

I prefer to shout at my children or make threats on withholding essential elements to their lives, such as candy or toys, to be honest.

I already noticed they now choose the same methods to solve problems: they shout at each other as well when things go wrong.

Maybe i should hug them when I need to correct them.

 

[Yellow Jacket]

How should parents be made responsible for their children?

I am amazed that question actually needs to be asked, to be honest. Should parents expect others to teach their children between right and wrong? Parents should be held responsible for their children's behaviour. If a child continuously misbehaves at school and the parents do nothing about it and merely expect the school to fix the issue, then the child should not be allowed to return to school unless the parents actually do something. You know, actually take some responsibility for their children.

Provide the parents with support and educate the parents about how to get the message across without violence, maybe?

It is a question that needs to be asked. I have spent years working with kids that parents don't give a flying flip how their kids act. In fact, one decided to have me "jumped" by a handful of girls because I gave her dentention for swearing at me, because I told her to be quiet during a test. By the way, I didn't get jumped, but it's ridiculous crap like that makes one ask questions such as I posed. That child's parent allowed her to do whatever she wanted. Never spanked her, never grounded her, nothing. When schools tried to address her behavior, she laughed and could care less, just like the parents scoffed and her school's attempts to correct her behavior.

Keeping the child at home where they could care less doesn't teach the child anything. Nor the parents.

Let's see though, after throwing her butt in a restraint one day, I had nothing but respect from her until she left. She apologized, straightened her act up, came to me when she had issues, and never swore at me again. Yeah, a restraint and a paddling are two different things, but the idea behind it, in the child's mind, is a form of physical consequence.

I really didn't mind her giving me "street cred" either. "Don't mess with Ms. "Z", she'll take you down in a minute." Was it true? NO!! But, it helped with the other students when they were getting out of hand. The mere IDEA that it was a possibility kept them in check. Just like the IDEA that one could get paddled seemed to work in this school.



I agree with the education aspect though. Mandated classes, with student and parents would be a first step. That is, if you could get the parents to show up. Intervention of sorts? I don't have an exact answer. Education is the first step. How to enforce it, more difficult.

 

[Neverfly]

You know what else works? Trying to understand a child's behavior.

What happens when understanding the child concludes that only a more severe punishment will get through to them?

You claim "Violently smacking the kid" takes a lack of intellect and is easier.
Only because you BELIEVE this is so. Like a fundie.

That may be you and me, but that is also one of the results of corporal punishment in schools that its advocates are happy enough to dodge or ignore.

IS this statement true?

Is there a code that can be looked up as to when paddling is acceptable and when it isn't?

In this lawsuit conscious society, I can bet that there is such a thing.

A fact YOU are ignoring.

Actually, I was implying more about what an awful parent you must be.

No shit, Sherlock.

A baseless assumption on your part that demonstrates your lack of character.
Do you always assume the worst traits in people that disagree with you?

You and Bells are peas in a pod. If someone says, "Maybe this works" you both go off on Ad Hom assumptions about how terrible a person they must be and start asking them if they agree with some horrifying example.

Your tactics are Low and repulsive.

You have ZERO knowledge as to what kind of parent I am.

I guess it makes you feel better to just attack someone than to have to actually THINK about making reasonable responses.

Okay, let's start with this: Why are you asking for evidence?

You don't know your logical fallacies, do you?
It is because you are making lots of assumptions and then basing further conclusions upon them as if those assumptions are known truth.

You are dodging.

Either supply the evidence or retract your claims.

Something about reading goes here. First off, many is more than one. I would have figured even you could understand that. Secondly, I would point out that the one example I referred to was specific, a kid beaten until the paddle broke, and then beaten some more. Maybe you should go back and read that part again.

Something about how you think that you said you provided one example and refer to that one example repeatedly makes it MANY?
Fascinating.

You answered it clearly by reiterating your claim and failing to address the point of contention.

I answered it clearly by saying I lacked evidence for what you asked for.

IS there something wrong with that? Should I duck, attack and dodge as you do? Will that make you happy?

I admitted that I have no evidence for what you asked evidence for.

You, however, turn to pathetic tactics when asked for evidence.

I wouldn't claim that I Was the one failing to address things here.

You STILL have not addressed it. You STILL have not provided any evidence. You STILL are dodging.

No. I'm just trying to be a better parent than ruling my daughter through fear.

Many parents are trying to be better parents.

But there is no guidebook or instruction manual.

Human behavior, especially developing human behavior is Extraordinarily complex and unpredictable.

If we KNEW how to correct it all, we would. We don't. So we must guess and when that happens, people will disagree.

You seem the sort who attacks anyone with harsh ad homs that disagrees with you.

In the meantime, many parents who are TRYING to raise kids face the dilemma of a modern society in which the kids are Out Of Control.

So do we really Know who the better parents are?
Or are you responding purely out of faith and you are as clueless as the rest of us?

 

[Yellow Jacket]

You know what else works? Trying to understand a child's behavior. Admittedly, that requires more effort than just smacking the kid, so I can understand why some people might favor the violent approach.



Your point being?



That may be you and me, but that is also one of the results of corporal punishment in schools that its advocates are happy enough to dodge or ignore.



(chortle!)

I already have. Maybe you didn't notice. Or maybe you just didn't care.

And no, the school was not "given permission", according to the article. I mean, sure, permission is implicit. But the school was asked by the parents to do it. At least, according to the article.

• • •​

Actually, I was implying more about what an awful parent you must be.



Okay, let's start with this: Why are you asking for evidence?



Something about reading goes here. First off, many is more than one. I would have figured even you could understand that. Secondly, I would point out that the one example I referred to was specific, a kid beaten until the paddle broke, and then beaten some more. Maybe you should go back and read that part again.



You answered it clearly by reiterating your claim and failing to address the point of contention.



No. I'm just trying to be a better parent than ruling my daughter through fear.

Just for the record, I am certified in TCI. Judge me before you know me, arrogant fool. Take a look at what TCI is. I not only use this with my work, but 99.9% of the time use it with my personal life as well. Not only am I certified, but have gone through "refresher courses" and recently attended a seminar on the recent changes in TCI. http://safeguards-training.net/TCI-SystemOverview.aspx



Also, I stand CORRECTED when the parents asked, not gave permission. But then, that screws up your arguements a bit. The school didn't dole out the corpral punishment as one on would think. The parents ASKED for them too, so technically, they didn't paddle in the way we are all arguing about, did they?

To attack Neverfly's parenting skills or refer to his son, "poor child". That is the best you can come up with? Taking low blows at someone's presumed parenting skills and child is showing your lack of ability to look at this objectively and proving your arguement is weak. Find something better and more educated to say.

 

[Tiassa]

This and that

What happens when understanding the child concludes that only a more severe punishment will get through to them?

Well, you can increase the severity of punishment, or you can take the longer, more demanding route for a parent and investigate why this is so.

You claim "Violently smacking the kid" takes a lack of intellect and is easier.
Only because you BELIEVE this is so. Like a fundie.

I wouldn't go so far as to say violence toward children requires a lack of intellect. I would, however, say that violence toward a child does not require a high degree of intellect.

Or we can look at it this way: How long does it take you to figure out how to smack a kid? How long does it take you to learn and understand fundamental concepts of developmental psychology?

IS this statement true?

Which part? That it is one of the results? It's in the article, and if that's not good enough, the study is online. That advocates are happy enough to dodge or ignore it? I think that is well enough reflected in this thread to justify the statement.

Is there a code that can be looked up as to when paddling is acceptable and when it isn't?

In this lawsuit conscious society, I can bet that there is such a thing.

Schools that include corporal punishment have their criteria.

That doesn't mean the punishers actually know what those criteria are.

A fact YOU are ignoring.

This is one of your favorite phrases. Don't you think you ought to attach it to something substantial, so as not to further diminish whatever value you think it has?

No shit, Sherlock.

Too bad about that. You shouldn't hide behind your kid, then.

A baseless assumption on your part that demonstrates your lack of character.
Do you always assume the worst traits in people that disagree with you?

Well, let's see: You're a parent who will outsource violence against your kid? Yeah, poor kid.

You have ZERO knowledge as to what kind of parent I am.

You're the kind of parent who will outsource violence against your kid.

You don't know your logical fallacies, do you?
It is because you are making lots of assumptions and then basing further conclusions upon them as if those assumptions are known truth.

You are dodging.

Either supply the evidence or retract your claims.

That's a lot of words when simply admitting, "I don't know," would have sufficed.

What logical fallacy are you accusing?

Something about how you think that you said you provided one example and refer to that one example repeatedly makes it MANY?
Fascinating.

Something about reading comprehension goes here.

I answered it clearly by saying I lacked evidence for what you asked for.

And then you reiterated the point as fact:

"Funny though. How behavior improved with so little "violence..." Apparently only the IDEA was enough. Imagine that."​

You keep reiterating it, I'm going to keep reminding you.

Many parents are trying to be better parents.

But there is no guidebook or instruction manual.

Human behavior, especially developing human behavior is Extraordinarily complex and unpredictable.

It is extraordinarily complex, and there is always an element of unpredictability, but those who actaully study human behavior, there are some general trends that can be predicted.

The problem is that many parents punish children (regardless of whether they use violence) for behavior that is natural and expected.

You seem the sort who attacks anyone with harsh ad homs that disagrees with you.

It's not simply a matter of disagreement. I do admit I'm harsh on people who disagree with me stupidly.

In the meantime, many parents who are TRYING to raise kids face the dilemma of a modern society in which the kids are Out Of Control.

How did the kids get out of control in the first place?

Additionally, many of those parents are trying to enforce a standard that presumes the validity of certain expectations and the predictability and propriety of certain outcomes.

So do we really Know who the better parents are?
Or are you responding purely out of faith and you are as clueless as the rest of us?

What is x+1, or even 2x or x[sup]2[/sup] if that sum or product is an infinitesimal numerator? Yes, I have more of a clue than many of the parents I know. But compared to the whole of the knowledge what any of us know is a fraction of, I couldn't say the difference is especially significant. And, yes, I know people who have more of a clue than I do.

One thing that is easy to figure out, though, is that I will be a more effective parent through sympathy than fear. I observe it in my child and other children as well. And across the spectrum of relevant professionals I know, my weakness isn't in discipline or perspective.

• • •​

Also, I stand CORRECTED when the parents asked, not gave permission. But then, that screws up your arguements a bit. The school didn't dole out the corpral punishment as one on would think. The parents ASKED for them too, so technically, they didn't paddle in the way we are all arguing about, did they?

Go back and review the point of contention.

To attack Neverfly's parenting skills or refer to his son, "poor child". That is the best you can come up with? Taking low blows at someone's presumed parenting skills and child is showing your lack of ability to look at this objectively and proving your arguement is weak. Find something better and more educated to say.

What would you like me to think of someone who will pridefully note that he has never raised his hand against his son, but is willing to outsource violence against the kid? That's just sick, cowardly, egotistical parenting.

Set your friendship aside for a moment and take a look at what you're defending.

 

[Yellow Jacket]

@ Tiassa

Friendship aside, obviously you haven't been reading MY posts clearly.
No where's has Never fly said that he is offering up his son to other's violence. Show me where he said that. I looked and couldn't find it.

My point of view:
I am going to open up a can of worms. Everyone is crying about violence against a child when it comes to a paddling. A "spanking". It seems we are throwing abusive violence and a simple spanking into one category. Somehow, many think this will teach children that violence is the answer to take care of their problems. Not so. You have to separate the two. Even those kids who have been beaten and abused do not all grow up getting into fights, turning to crime, ending up in jail or abusing their children either.

I personally know of many grown adults who have been abused, beaten severely as a child. They do not abuse their children. Yes, some of them still swat their own child when they feel it necessary. Their kids love and respect their parents, don't get into trouble. Those people haven't been in trouble with the law a day in their lives.

I know of people who for generations in their families have been spanked and it hasn't left an emotional scar. They are wonderful people and I think the world of them.

I know of people who were abused as a child, removed from the abuse and still received spankings. They do not abuse their children and yes, they still swat their kids.

I know of people who don't lay a hand on their child. Those kids are as equally good.

I, also, know of people and children who are abused or beaten and they are in trouble, unproductive citizens. I have seen them abuse their child. Yes, being a mandated reporter, I report their butts.

I have also seen children who aren't spanked and they are out of control, in trouble with the law and lording over the parents.


Part of what Never Fly's point was what I am referring to above.
There is no manual. Everyone does things differently.
Everyone is raised differently.
So what am I "defending"?
The right for every parent to discipline their child as they see fit. As long as it isn't physically, mentally, or emotionally scarring to the child. As long as it isn't abusive.

I pick out different punishments for my children. They think it's unfair. One is grounded from playing outside, but can play a video game. The other is grounded from the video game but can play outside. Why? Because one practically lives outside and will barely touch the video game, so on smaller infractions, this punishment is usually enough for him to change his ways. The other child is a computer/gamer buff, so making him play outside and leave the games and computer alone drives him batty. Am I wrong for doing this?

My sister-in-law began skipping classes when she was in highschool. Her mother warned her that she would escort her to classes if she continued. Mom showed up wearing the most outrageous outfit she possibly could find, almost clown like make up and rollers in her hair. She spent the entire day making sure she went to every class with her daughter. Sat next to her, told the teacher her daughter had the answer, was loud and silly with her daughter's friends in the hallways. Guess what? She never skipped a class again. AND we all laugh about it now, especially my sister-in-law. "God, was I embarrassed, but you know what? I never did it again!" Was my sister in law emabarrassed, humiliated? Hell yes. Did she learn? Hell yes. Her mother chose to handle it in a way that she deemed fit. Would I do that? No. But, it was effective.

As far as the point of contention, I referred to the one that was present. There have been a few since the OP. At the present time, it was more the point that a, one child was paddled in the school. Seeing it was the parents who asked for it, then it negates the fact that the school just handed out a paddling. Obviously the parents were aware of the situation and deemed it fit for their child to receive it. Interesting point, it says again, only one since May. Seems the child didn't receive additional paddlings.

 

[Bells]

It is a question that needs to be asked. I have spent years working with kids that parents don't give a flying flip how their kids act. In fact, one decided to have me "jumped" by a handful of girls because I gave her dentention for swearing at me, because I told her to be quiet during a test. By the way, I didn't get jumped, but it's ridiculous crap like that makes one ask questions such as I posed. That child's parent allowed her to do whatever she wanted. Never spanked her, never grounded her, nothing. When schools tried to address her behavior, she laughed and could care less, just like the parents scoffed and her school's attempts to correct her behavior.

Keeping the child at home where they could care less doesn't teach the child anything. Nor the parents.

Let's see though, after throwing her butt in a restraint one day, I had nothing but respect from her until she left. She apologized, straightened her act up, came to me when she had issues, and never swore at me again. Yeah, a restraint and a paddling are two different things, but the idea behind it, in the child's mind, is a form of physical consequence.

I really didn't mind her giving me "street cred" either. "Don't mess with Ms. "Z", she'll take you down in a minute." Was it true? NO!! But, it helped with the other students when they were getting out of hand. The mere IDEA that it was a possibility kept them in check. Just like the IDEA that one could get paddled seemed to work in this school.



I agree with the education aspect though. Mandated classes, with student and parents would be a first step. That is, if you could get the parents to show up. Intervention of sorts? I don't have an exact answer. Education is the first step. How to enforce it, more difficult.

We are not talking about giving detention here though, are we? We are talking about schools doling out corporal punishment, and sometimes without the parent's consent.

I find it astounding that there is even an argument that parents should not really be forced to be held responsible for the actions of their children when the school has attempted to correct the child's behaviour within their own boundaries. After those attempts fail, the parents should either be told that they either step up and get their child to behave or the child will not be allowed to return to school until they do. Or fine the parents. You'd be surprised at how quickly some parents will comply when the thought of having to pay real money comes up.

But parents expecting schools to smack their children to correct their behaviour? No, sorry. I don't buy that. If I refuse to do it, I don't want anyone else doing it either. Schools and teachers should not be replacing the parents role. Now, there is an argument at the moment that it is somehow effective in this one instance. But what happens later on?

Studies indicate that physical punishment does temporarily produce the desired results. But in the long term, spanking not only does not work, it carries with it many negative effects. The long-term use of corporal punishment tends to increase the probability of deviant and antisocial behaviours, such as aggression, adolescent delinquency and violent acts inside and outside the family as an adult. One explanation is that after living with violence that is considered ‘legitimate’, people expand this to accept violence that is not considered legitimate. For example, violent acts that are considered legitimate include maintaining order in schools by punishing children, deterring criminals and defending one’s country against foreign enemies. The ‘cultural spillover’ theory proposes that the more a society uses force for socially legitimate ends, the greater the tendency for those engaged in illegitimate behaviours to also use force to attain their own ends. Corporal punishment has been associated with a variety of psychological and behavioral disorders of children and adults, including anxiety, alcohol abuse, depression, withdrawal, low self-esteem, impulsiveness, delinquency and substance abuse.

http://www.cyc-net.org/cyc-online/cycol-0101-corporal.html

Taking low blows at someone's presumed parenting skills and child is showing your lack of ability to look at this objectively and proving your arguement is weak. Find something better and more educated to say.

He is partially right though. Neverfly has said that he has never raised his hand against his child and probably never will. But he would be willing for another adult to do it. I'm sorry, but what?

 

[Bells]

No where's has Never fly said that he is offering up his son to other's violence. Show me where he said that. I looked and couldn't find it.

Really?

Who would you let hit your son with a wooden paddle, and why?

”
Apparently, school administration- After they call me to confirm and discuss his behavior.

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2524468&postcount=38

 

[John99]

A Texas City recently voted to revive corporal punishment and has noted a dramatic improvement in the behavior of the children since that time despite the fact that only one child has actually been paddled.

It stands to reason that physical punishment would result in an improvement of behavior. Not that i would support this though because it would, in some instances, lead to abuse of power.

 

[Asguard]

Best arrest them when they beat their children senseless instead.

Well if parents are failing to discipline their children within the legal boundaries, what else is to be done?

I know of some parents who do nothing. Kids rip everything in the house to shreds like they are a pack of wild animals, and they don't even get sent to their rooms or have privileges taken away. Schools should not be the ones to discipline children. That is the parent's job. Parents are entrusted to ready their children into becoming semi-coherent human beings. If they continuously fail in that process, maybe they should be fined.

lets see bells. Already the school system here AND the foster care system SPECIFICALLY ban ANY FORM OF ABUSE INCLUDING PHYSICAL. Lets look at this logically, you work for me and you dont get your work done on time, i hit you? legal or illegal?

Im married to you and you burn dinner so i hit you legal or illegal?

 

[Pasta]

yes, just what you want to teach people, that assult and battery are acceptable.

"Assault" and "battery" ?
How is spanking a child's butt with an open hand "assault" and "battery" ?
Wait, I suppose in todays PC world with greedy whiney lawyers and kid-gloves "psychologists", a simple spanking has become "assault" and "battery".....rediculous

Hitting someone with a closed fist, sure that's an assault an unacceptable.

 

[Asguard]

"Assault" and "battery" ?
How is spanking a child's butt with an open hand "assault" and "battery" ?
Wait, I suppose in todays PC world with greedy whiney lawyers and kid-gloves "psychologists", a simple spanking has become "assault" and "battery".....rediculous

Hitting someone with a closed fist, sure that's an assault an unacceptable.

Assault is a crime of violence against another person. In some jurisdictions, including Australia and New Zealand, assault refers to an act that causes another to apprehend immediate and personal violence, while in other jurisdictions, such as the United States, assault may refer only to the ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault

In common law, assault is the tort of acting intentionally and voluntarily causing the reasonable apprehension of an immediate harmful or offensive contact. Because assault requires intent, it is considered an intentional tort, as opposed to a tort of negligence. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assault_(tort)

Hmm no mention of open hand or closed fist, if you slap your wife (or husband) with an open hand you will STILL get a nice ride in a taxpayer paid for taxi with red and blues

Battery is a criminal offense involving unlawful physical contact, distinct from assault in that the contact is not necessarily violent.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_(crime)

Again no mention of if the hand is open or closed, strange that

 

[Neverfly]

He is partially right though. Neverfly has said that he has never raised his hand against his child and probably never will. But he would be willing for another adult to do it. I'm sorry, but what?

No, he is not partially right.

You're both forming your own little opinions based upon your dreamy ideology.

Amazing... Coming from people that support violently sucking a 20 week old developing child out of a womb with a vacuum.

I guess it all just depends on what you WANT, huh?

 

[Neverfly]

Well, you can increase the severity of punishment, or you can take the longer, more demanding route for a parent and investigate why this is so.

You are claiming that paddling is a primitive and uneducated approach and that understanding a child is a civilized approach.
Again- Only a Claim.

Again- You are not supporting this with any evidence whatsoever.

I asked you, what happens if understanding the child (Determine why such was so) leads to a necessity for more severity in punishment in order to reach the child?

Instead of obfuscating, answer the question as asked.

I wouldn't go so far as to say violence toward children requires a lack of intellect. I would, however, say that violence toward a child does not require a high degree of intellect.

A lack of requirement does not demonstrate that spanking or paddling is unintellectual in all cases.

How long does it take you to learn and understand fundamental concepts of developmental psychology?

What happens when this ^ leads to the conclusion that spanking or paddling CAN be effective on children?

Which part? That it is one of the results? It's in the article, and if that's not good enough, the study is online. That advocates are happy enough to dodge or ignore it? I think that is well enough reflected in this thread to justify the statement.

I'm seeing you justify a lot by Labeling someone who spanks as "Violent" and "Abusive."

If you have evidence that School Administration Abusing children with paddles is standard or commonplace- Present it already.

Schools that include corporal punishment have their criteria.

That doesn't mean the punishers actually know what those criteria are.

According to the articles YOU posted, only the Administration can administer it.
But they don't know the criteria?
Bullshit.

This is one of your favorite phrases.

I don't say it often enough for you to claim that. I turned your own claims of people ignoring things back on you.

Don't you think you ought to attach it to something substantial, so as not to further diminish whatever value you think it has?

I have been. The fact you ignore it is not my problem.

Look at how many times I have asked you to support your claims.

Each time you duck, dodge and change the wording of what is asked or provide answers that do not address the question.

Too bad about that. You shouldn't hide behind your kid, then.

I did not hide behind my kid.

Stop making the personal attacks and using my Child as a basis for your personal attacks.

Well, let's see: You're a parent who will outsource violence against your kid? Yeah, poor kid.

You claim that this statement is true. But it is not.
The odds of my son recieving a paddling are Very Slim considering that the behavior he would need to partake in to warrant it is not what he demonstrates.
Secondly, you are claiming that paddling is Violence. This is not demonstrated to be true.

You make it sounds as though I'm paying someone to beat up my kid black and blue.

What a low series of repulsive tactics you resort to.

That's a lot of words when simply admitting, "I don't know," would have sufficed.

Wow, when your argument fails, you resort to lying?
I did not say "I don't know" because that would not have been applicable.
I explained your Logical Fallacies Clearly and you claim that Meant I don't know?!?!

Seriously-- Is your brain broken or do you REALLY resort to LYING when you are shown to be in error?

"Funny though. How behavior improved with so little "violence..." Apparently only the IDEA was enough. Imagine that."​

You keep reiterating it, I'm going to keep reminding you.

Ok, then, the evidence is in the article that behavior within that school improved after ONE instance of paddling.
If you want More Detailed Evidence than that, I have none.
You could ALWAYS say you're dissatisfied and keep asking for More Detailed evidence...

It is extraordinarily complex, and there is always an element of unpredictability, but those who actaully study human behavior, there are some general trends that can be predicted.

This is true.

The problem is that many parents punish children (regardless of whether they use violence) for behavior that is natural and expected.

Explain how this is is a problem?
I'm not disagreeing- I'm asking you to explain it in depth.

It's not simply a matter of disagreement. I do admit I'm harsh on people who disagree with me stupidly.

You ASSUME stupidly. You ASSUME traits of behavior.
Frankly, if this is how you behave, I would not trust you around children.

How did the kids get out of control in the first place?

This is a damn good question!!

Additionally, many of those parents are trying to enforce a standard that presumes the validity of certain expectations and the predictability and propriety of certain outcomes.

What would you like me to think of someone who will pridefully note that he has never raised his hand against his son, but is willing to outsource violence against the kid? That's just sick, cowardly, egotistical parenting.

You are TWISTING reality based upon your own opinion.

You are painting an Inaccurate Image.

For one, where my son goes to school, there is no paddling.
Two, my son has no need for paddling.
Three, in order for a kid in school to get the paddle, they would REALLY need to mess up.
Four, paddling makes a noise. It's not something that hurts if done right.
I read your article about some kid that was Beaten -- I would be furious if that was my son.

But the problem is that is ONE incident. Just as if another student beat up my son, I'd be outraged- but could assume that ALL Kids will beat him.

Let me ask you this: If my son acts up and a teacher smacks his wrist with her hand and he straightens up- Is she Violently Abusing my child? Should I be up in arms?
Would you call me a coward for that in some sick twisted way that you want to distort this argument?

You do Not Know me or my son Anywhere NEAR well enough for you to jump to personal Baseless Conclusions.