City Revives Paddling, sees major improvement in Behavior

[superstring01]

The government has No Business fining private citizens for how they discipline their children in any event.

It has every business for doing it if their children attend public schools and disrupt the normal flow of business and prevent other students from learning. It also has every motivation for forcing children to attend, on account of the fact that there is a direct connection between education and socio-economic mobility, poverty, freedom and crime.

~String

 

[mordea]

Seems Steve and his buddies lack imagination.

That was also my first thought when I read his comment. School's can discipline children and compel them to learn and behave without resorting to humiliation, fear and pain. The only drawback is that this requires more effort, which public schools in inner metro areas with 30 students classes cannot afford.

Also, I find it strange that people expect parents to be responsible for their child's behaviour at school. How absurd. It's the school's responsibility to monitor a child's behaviour, and discipline them when necessary, when they are at school.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

A Texas City recently voted to revive corporal punishment and has noted a dramatic improvement in the behavior of the children since that time despite the fact that only one child has actually been paddled.

I think it's probably okay for kids to get spanked or slapped (but not beaten) a few times in their life, and I mean just a few. It's an important lesson to learn that if you are a real asshole, it's possible to make somebody so angry that they'll hit you.

But this is a parental thing. Your parents love you and if they get so angry that they want to spank you then you must have really been an asshole. But as for teachers, in most cases they are authority figures, not people you think of as loving you. It's their job to teach you how to wield authority when you're old enough to earn it, and violence is not the proper way to wield authority.

I was spanked and slapped maybe five times total. I've never hit anybody and I've never made anybody mad enough to hit me.

What to do with parents who are incompetent, overwhelmed, or who just don't care, is a difficult issue. On the one hand, freedom certainly ought to include the freedom to raise your own children in the way you think is best. If we have a hundred million experiments in childrearing going on, that's a fabulous laboratory and we should be able to pick out the ways that work best and pass them along. On the other hand, children have rights too, and one of them ought to be the freedom to not be raised by assholes. I don't know how to resolve that dilemma except by trial and error, case by case.

Why is Texas so fucked up?

They just can't make up their minds. They didn't want to be part of Mexico, so they fought for independence and became a separate country. Then they figured out that nobody in Texas knew how to run a country (a fact that is still true) so they petitioned to join the USA. But then they seceded and joined the Confederacy. Now they think they're more American than we are.

 

[Yellow Jacket]

Hmmm.
Let me throw this out there.
I have worked in a school that extremely rough, with the worst lot of them placed by the state.
Yeah, I have been nearly knocked out, had my knee broken, and so on. But you know what worked best with the higher percentage of the kids there? KNOWING, the FACT, the KNOWLEDGE that their behavior could lead them into a restraint, IF all else failed.
For some, just being put into a trained, approved by the state restraint, kept them from repeating their behavior that got them there the first time. A simple reminder, "Hon, please take a moment to breathe. If you don't put the chair down, you will be forcing me to call for a restraint. Let's talk." The chair 99% found all feet on the floor within seconds.

TEMPLE, TEX. -- In an era when students talk back to teachers, skip class and wear ever-more-risque clothing to school, one central Texas city has hit upon a deceptively simple solution: Bring back the paddle.

Since paddling was brought back to the city's 14 schools by a unanimous board vote in May, behavior at Temple's single high school has changed dramatically, Wright said, even though only one student in the school system has been paddled.

The point wasn't to beat every child into submission. It was to have consequences where other consequences seemed to be failing. Note only one student has been paddled. Also, note that the behavior has changed dramatically in the high school.

In an era that we have to have police officers at our high schools, kids have to use open or clear backpacks for the "just in case they have contraband or a weapon", kids have to get wanded down or go through metal detectors, etc.. Well, this seems to be a better option to get kids back on track.

One word: Columbine.

That or threat of a consequence for unruly behavior? I prefer the latter.

If your kid isn't doing anything wrong, it's not going to happen.

I do wonder what the guidelines are for this discipline. Do they notify the parents prior, what offenses results in a paddling? Anyone know?

 

[Neverfly]

You disapprove of removing abused children from that household where their parents may be beating them senseless in the name of discipline?

No.

Did I say ANYTHING that even REMOTELY implied that I did?

No, I did not. You're doing that thing where you read my post and then "clarify" by asking me if I said the exact opposite.

Stop it.

I said that there was ALREADY a System In Place for dealing with Abuse and Neglect. And you know what's ironic? All those people that say the government should have more control over parents and children will later comment on how poorly the system works.

 

[Bells]

No.

Did I say ANYTHING that even REMOTELY implied that I did?

No, I did not. You're doing that thing where you read my post and then "clarify" by asking me if I said the exact opposite.

Stop it.

I said that there was ALREADY a System In Place for dealing with Abuse and Neglect. And you know what's ironic? All those people that say the government should have more control over parents and children will later comment on how poorly the system works.

It was the tone. Hence why I asked you a question. You know? To clarify.

""

That was also my first thought when I read his comment. School's can discipline children and compel them to learn and behave without resorting to humiliation, fear and pain. The only drawback is that this requires more effort, which public schools in inner metro areas with 30 students classes cannot afford.

I am not comfortable with teachers, strangers to my house, smacking my children.

Also, I find it strange that people expect parents to be responsible for their child's behaviour at school. How absurd. It's the school's responsibility to monitor a child's behaviour, and discipline them when necessary, when they are at school.

Parents are expected to teach their children to have manners and not act like little turds (for lack of a better term). I would expect a school to discipline a child if that child has done something bad and to let either myself and/or my husband know about it right away. But spanking my child? No. That I would not consent to.

 

[PieAreSquared]

they need to reinstate the death penalty and maybe the adults will behave better

 

[Yellow Jacket]

Parents are expected to teach their children to have manners and not act like little turds (for lack of a better term). I would expect a school to discipline a child if that child has done something bad and to let either myself and/or my husband know about it right away. But spanking my child? No. That I would not consent to.

How would you propose the school system to deal with school bullies? Let's say this bully constantly is throwing your child's books on the floor, pushing him down, breaking your child's stuff, humiliating him in front of the other kids, hitting him, etc. Despite your best effort, the school's policy of suspending the child, etc. has no effect on the bullies behavior. The bully responds with, "So? "F" off! Nobody can make me do anything. I ain't gonna stop. Thanks for the vacation!"

Would you not mind it so much then? Think it would be more effective if they knew there was a consequence like this? Not saying it would be completely erased (it being bullies), but perhaps it would severly dampen the situation.

I understand you not wanting your child spanked, but if the child was raised to do the right things, then the child wouldn't have to worry about getting paddled at school.

 

[Bells]

How would you propose the school system to deal with school bullies? Let's say this bully constantly is throwing your child's books on the floor, pushing him down, breaking your child's stuff, humiliating him in front of the other kids, hitting him, etc. Despite your best effort, the school's policy of suspending the child, etc. has no effect on the bullies behavior. The bully responds with, "So? "F" off! Nobody can make me do anything. I ain't gonna stop. Thanks for the vacation!"

Would you not mind it so much then? Think it would be more effective if they knew there was a consequence like this? Not saying it would be completely erased (it being bullies), but perhaps it would severly dampen the situation.

I understand you not wanting your child spanked, but if the child was raised to do the right things, then the child wouldn't have to worry about getting paddled at school.

The parents should be made responsible. If you're children are bullies, then it is not for the school to correct that behaviour and it should fall to the parents to do so. If the parents refuse to do so, then the parents should be made responsible, in my opinion. The school can only go so far. It is the parent's job to ensure that the child understands that such behaviour will not be accepted anywhere.

But teachers hitting children? Especially bullies? What kind of message does that send to the bully? 'We don't want you hitting other children, so to make sure you understand that, we're going to give you a few whacks on your backside with a paddle'..

 

[Yellow Jacket]

The parents should be made responsible. If you're children are bullies, then it is not for the school to correct that behaviour and it should fall to the parents to do so. If the parents refuse to do so, then the parents should be made responsible, in my opinion. The school can only go so far. It is the parent's job to ensure that the child understands that such behaviour will not be accepted anywhere.

How should the parents be made responsible? What do you propose. I, for one, am fed up with irresponsible parents.
There are two types of bullies. One is the product of an abusive home. Here I agree this would have a negative message. The child only knows of an abusive pattern.
The other type, which is becoming more common, is the kid who parents encourage this type of behavior or just plain don't care. Again, if not with this threat of paddling over their head, what then? By the way, it is my personal experience these kids are the hardest to get a message through. They truely could care less what anyone says and continues their behavior, almost with satisfaction of a job well done on their part!

 

[PieAreSquared]

they really should just make them listen to Beethoven

 

[Yellow Jacket]

they really should just make them listen to Beethoven :eek

Beethoven may improve their learning capabilities. I think they should use Barney or The Wiggles!

 

[Neverfly]

So... uhh... Just curious but... Did the reinstatement of Paddling improve behavior or not?

 

[Yellow Jacket]

So... uhh... Just curious but... Did the reinstatement of Paddling improve behavior or not?

For the school that we were discussing. Yes.

 

[Tiassa]

It's easier just to beat 'em

It seems to me there is something of a circle afoot.

• What parents would allow the school to spank their children? Parents who spank their children.​

The only kids getting spanked will be the ones already getting spanked. Ergo, the efficacy of spanking is questionable. If the kid who is already spanked requires further spanking, how is it, then, that spanking is the answer?

We should also note some of the issues our topic poster chose to avoid. Remember, folks, it pays to read the source article:

A joint American Civil Liberties Union-Human Rights Watch report last year found that students with disabilities were disproportionately subjected to corporal punishment, sometimes in direct response to behavioral problems that were a result of their disabilities. Many educators and psychologists say that positive tools, such as giving praise for good behavior and withholding it for bad, are far more effective for discouraging misbehavior.

Those techniques "encourage them to behave well in the future," said report author Alice Farmer. Paddling "makes students lose respect for their teachers."

Rules about paddling vary from district to district, but typically only administrators, not teachers, can mete out the punishment, which is done in private. Usually, a long, flat wooden paddle is used to give as many as three blows across the student's clothed rear end, although Farmer found students who had been hit many more times. Boys are overwhelmingly the target.

(Birnbaum; boldface accent added)​

It would seem that beating children is still the easy route. Most of those who advocate violence against children seem to be thinking ahead. And the parents of these students? Well, for instance, one Darr Kuykendall told The Washington Post, "Back then, you wouldn't throw spitballs, because you were afraid of the consequences." I grew up in a slowly gentrifying exurb, and when in junior high, more standard disciplinary measures like detention and in-school suspension often led to harsh consequences at home. Perhaps the parents in Temple, Texas, want their children to be afraid, but don't want the responsibility of instilling that fear. Let someone else do it, so they don't have to.

In Alvin, a formerly agricultural city of 23,000 that has been swallowed by Houston's suburbs in the past decade, the policy is on the books but not used in many schools.

"I don't think it's that simple anymore," said Terry Constantine, who added that she hasn't swung a paddle in her 16 years as an elementary school principal there. "We look for our parents to work with us now."

At Alvin High School, where the technique is used, Principal Kevon Wells said he had paddled students about six times this school year. If a student continued to misbehave, he said, he wouldn't do it again. "I'm not into beating kids," he said.

But in Temple, a city just outside Fort Hood that shakes with the air horns of the trains that pass through its rail yards, many residents say they hope that the old-fashioned solution can address what they see as rising disrespect among youth. They say their discipline problems aren't different from those in any other school system in the country: students showing up late for class, or violating the dress code, or talking during lessons. Those habits were unheard of in the days when schoolteachers routinely swung a paddle, they say.

(ibid; boldface accent added)​

Beating students for being late? For wearing the wrong t-shirt? Talking during class? Oh, come now. That is ludicrous. In Tennessee, a week and a half ago, school officials sent a fifteen year-old home to change because his shirt was too gay. Maybe they should have just beaten him? Anyone? Anyone?

Certainly, though, it is easier to smack a kid around for being late or violating the dress code than it is to convince parents to do take care of such problems from the home front. And, hey, for the parents, it's even more convenient. They don't have to do a damn thing.

But, hey, don't mess with Texas, right?

A Lincoln High School student was beaten so severely by a coach with a "canoe paddle" that the wood split – but it was taped up so the "licking" could continue.

The student suffered "severe bruising and welts to the lower back, buttocks and upper thighs" and was referred to a doctor for care, according to a Dallas ISD investigative report obtained by The Dallas Morning News.

Paddling is prohibited in Dallas public schools, but it is legal in Texas.

The report, dated Dec. 8, 2008, does not name the student who received up to 21 strikes in the spring 2007 incident, but it does list seven members of the football coaching staff who witnessed or participated in the beating.

Most of the employees are still with DISD and at Lincoln High School.

Lincoln principal Earl Jones, who was cited in the report for concealing the incident, was given a 20-day suspension last week after The News inquired about the paddling. He will also be reassigned to another campus after this school year ....

.... According to the investigative report, the student was removed from the football team for reasons that included a verbal altercation with a Lincoln security adviser who assisted the football team. The coaches apparently voted on whether the student should have the opportunity to return to the team.

According to their statements, some coaches voted against the idea, but the majority favored his return. Former head football coach Jerry Sands decided the student would have to take licks to be on the team, the report states. The student agreed.

Several of the coaches wrote that they were not aware of the district's no-paddling policy.

(Hobbs; boldface accent added)​

Yeah. Don't freakin' mess with Texas. But, hey, if this is the sort of thing they want to advocate down there, well, hell, it is Texas, after all.
____________________

Notes:

Birnbaum, Michael. "Texas city revives paddling as it takes a swat at misbehavior". The Washington Post. April 16, 2010. WashingtonPost.com. April 18, 2010. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/15/AR2010041505964.html

WSMV. "'Gay' Shirt Gets Teen Tossed From School". April 7, 2010. WSMV.com. April 18, 2010. http://www.wsmv.com/news/23076958/detail.html

Hobbs, Tawnell D. "DISD investigation finds Lincoln High School coaches paddled student up to 21 times". The Dallas Morning News. April 2, 2009. DallasNews.com. April 18, 2010. http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/040209dnmetpaddling.4321f23.html

 

[Neverfly]

For the school that we were discussing. Yes.

Fascinating.

You want to know something?

I have never once raised my hand to my son.

To be honest, I doubt I even could. Yet, I am fortunate that my son is well behaved by his own personality.
Some people are not so lucky.

It seems to me there is something of a circle afoot.

• What parents would allow the school to spank their children? Parents who spank their children.

The only kids getting spanked will be the ones already getting spanked. Ergo, the efficacy of spanking is questionable.

You are Jumping to conclusions and then leading that to your next fact.

First, do you have any evidence that only children who are spanked at home would have parents that support the Paddle at school?

How do you address that only ONE paddling was issued for such a pronounced change in behavior by the over-all student body?

Do you really think that school administrators will beat children up senseless?

Note how I pointed out above that I have never spanked and probably would never need to.

Because I can easily see those who oppose the idea of claiming that those who support it must "Beat children up" themselves. Tiassa.

Pathetic. And posters here laugh at Sandy for that tactic all the time. Hypocritical.

 

[Tiassa]

Defending child abuse is not what the civilized world considers impressive

First, do you have any evidence that only children who are spanked at home would have parents that support the Paddle at school?

That is absolutely hilarious. Thank you.

Who would you let hit your son with a wooden paddle, and why?

See, that's the thing. Parents who don't spank their kids aren't witholding the licks because they're lazy, or they're too busy. They don't do it because they believe it doesn't work, and don't believe in using violence as a disciplinary measure. They're not going to say, "Oh, hell, you know ... I mean, I don't spank my kid, but next time she's late, go ahead and whack her ass a few times."

How do you address that only ONE paddling was issued for such a pronounced change in behavior by the over-all student body?

Do you have any evidence for how pronounced that change of behavior is? All I saw was a vague claim from someone who has vested interest.

Do you really think that school administrators will beat children up senseless?

Senseless? That's your standard, then. I've already provided one example of abuse. Additionally, to reiterate:

Usually, a long, flat wooden paddle is used to give as many as three blows across the student's clothed rear end, although Farmer found students who had been hit many more times.

(Birnbaum)​

And, hell, as the Lincoln High example shows, we have school employees taking to kids without having a clue about the rules.

So you don't like my terminology? That's fine with me. Anyone who advocates violence against behaviorally-impaired students for their behavioral impairments really isn't worth the words I've wasted responding to you. But, really, thank you for making me laugh. I suppose I needed that.
____________________

Notes:

Birnbaum, Michael. "Texas city revives paddling as it takes a swat at misbehavior". The Washington Post. April 16, 2010. WashingtonPost.com. April 18, 2010. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/15/AR2010041505964.html

 

[Neverfly]

That is absolutely hilarious. Thank you.

No, actually, it wasn't.

And I'll take that as an admission on your part that you have No Evidence to support the claim upon which you made other claims.

Who would you let hit your son with a wooden paddle, and why?

Apparently, school administration- After they call me to confirm and discuss his behavior.


See, kids act DIFFERENTLY around other people when their parents aren't around.

See, that's the thing. Parents who don't spank their kids aren't witholding the licks because they're lazy, or they're too busy. They don't do it because they believe it doesn't work, and don't believe in using violence as a disciplinary measure. They're not going to say, "Oh, hell, you know ... I mean, I don't spank my kid, but next time she's late, go ahead and whack her ass a few times."

More logical fallacies.

Do you have Evidence that kids are paddled by school administration for the charge of Tardiness?

YOU believe it doesn't work. Yet, apparently it does work at that school.

Do you have any evidence for how pronounced that change of behavior is? All I saw was a vague claim from someone who has vested interest.

I have none aside from that article. Perhaps some can be found.

Senseless? That's your standard, then.

I never said it was.

I've already provided one example of abuse.

One example does not demonstrate that abusive administrators are standard or even common.

So you don't like my terminology? That's fine with me. Anyone who advocates violence against behaviorally-impaired students for their behavioral impairments really isn't worth the words I've wasted responding to you. But, really, thank you for making me laugh. I suppose I needed that.

You're welcome.

Funny though. How behavior improved with so little "violence..." Apparently only the IDEA was enough. Imagine that.

There was a wooden paddle hanging in the principles office when I was in Elementary school.
I'm not aware of anyone receiving it, nor did I ever take a whack from it.

I never dared to do anything to get it.

 

[Tiassa]

(yawn ....)

Apparently, school administration- After they call me to confirm and discuss his behavior.


See, kids act DIFFERENTLY around other people when their parents aren't around.

Poor kid.

Do you have Evidence that kids are paddled by school administration for the charge of Tardiness?

I believe I can stand reasonably on the Washington Post article. You might want to read it.

Or, to reiterate, since you apparently need it:

But in Temple, a city just outside Fort Hood that shakes with the air horns of the trains that pass through its rail yards, many residents say they hope that the old-fashioned solution can address what they see as rising disrespect among youth. They say their discipline problems aren't different from those in any other school system in the country: students showing up late for class, or violating the dress code, or talking during lessons. Those habits were unheard of in the days when schoolteachers routinely swung a paddle, they say.

(Birnbaum)​

I wonder if spanking has any positive effect on reading comprehension?

One example does not demonstrate that abusive administrators are standard or even common.

And yet, to reiterate yet again:

Usually, a long, flat wooden paddle is used to give as many as three blows across the student's clothed rear end, although Farmer found students who had been hit many more times.

(ibid)​

I wonder if those Texas school administrators would paddle a kid for demanding that people keep repeating themselves?

Funny though. How behavior improved with so little "violence..." Apparently only the IDEA was enough. Imagine that.

To reiterate:

Do you have any evidence for how pronounced that change of behavior is? All I saw was a vague claim from someone who has vested interest.​

Did you miss it the first time? Or just dodge it?

There was a wooden paddle hanging in the principles office when I was in Elementary school.
I'm not aware of anyone receiving it, nor did I ever take a whack from it.

I never dared to do anything to get it.

And all living in fear appears to have done was teach you to be afraid.
____________________

Notes:

Birnbaum, Michael. "Texas city revives paddling as it takes a swat at misbehavior". The Washington Post. April 16, 2010. WashingtonPost.com. April 18, 2010. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/04/15/AR2010041505964.html

 

[Yellow Jacket]

@ Tiassa

Refer to my post 24. The simple idea of a child knowing there are consequences such as that (not even paddling) eliminates most behavior. To add to this, the main goal of my school is to eliminate any restraints at all. But, certain safety issues have required it from time to time. Although, there is extensive training monthly through a SUNY college for all staff there to learn how to verbally deal with children heading towards a "crisis".

No where in the article did it say that a child was paddled for being late.

I would never support the idea of a disabled or mentally challenged being paddled. Disgusting.

The one child that was paddled in this school was given permission by parents. Does not say that those parents spanked their own child at home though. Read the entire article, there is a link in the OP.