CritiquingChrist said:
I said earlier that I was going to follow a chronological order but when I entered my last post I find a huge oral bowel movement from Lori. And being that I won't allow this lunatic to rant and rave, insulting me while she claimed repeatedly to be so loving and without judgment, I plan to skewer this dumb ass here and now right to the wall.
Boy Lori, it didn't take much chiding for you to reveal what a hypocrite you are, did it? You pranced on this board saying how loving you were, how you don't go to church because people are so judgmental, and look who's acting like a shit flinging monkey? Not very Christian of you Lori, I thought you knew God oh so well and loved your fellow man.
Ever hear "Curseth not thine enemy"? I wish I could tell you that you probably did and are just chosing to be a hypocrite. But as revealed by your consistent professions you don't even READ the bible. It is UTTERLY apparent you haven;t heard the verse because you just too plain ignorant, lazy (and dare I say stupid) to have ever read the bible. That is why you fail so miserably as a Christian, and as an intellectual being to be brutally honest.
So let's analyze your oral bowel movement publically, since you hung it out there, just begging for me to respond:
You'll never hear me claiming to be Jesus. The more you get to know Him, the more you realize how wretched you are in your flesh. And I've never attested to anything but. I call it like I see it. I didn't do anything but reiterate what you attested to yourself. I'm not saying that I'm better than you, you just chose to take it that way. I haven't "failed" as a Christian, I'm born again. I was responding though to the fact that you attested to failing as a Christian, so speak for yourself. And you're not the only one in the world with a degree...so please God, and I'm pretty sure I speak for everyone out here, get over yourself for a minute. Please.
I was a CHILD lori when I came to the faith. Not a fully developed intellectual being. That is how I got trapped into the frontal lobotomy you refer to as Christianity. (Please know Christians, I use the word frontal lobotomy not in the idea that all Christians are missing their lobes, but in the case of our very special Lori here.) I "assume" everyone else is indoctrinated because it's crystal clear to see. EVERY (and I mean EVERY) Christian I have EVER spoken to in my ENTIRE lifetime always had their faith boil down to personal reward or fear of leaving the faith. It never boiled down to truly loving god, truly desiring to be moral, because they thought it was the sincere truth. Christianity is diseased with egocentricism, so much so that 99.99..% of Christians are not fit to call Jesus savior, because they have absolutely NO concept of what martyrdom is. And I'm not alone in seeing this. 2/3irds of the world agrees that egocentric Christianity is a stain on humanity.
I was a child when I went to church to...mainly to appease my grandma. It was still most obvious to me that the organization and the rhetoric and ritual could not possibly be all there was to it. It was very clear to me that there was something very wrong with what I was experiencing there. At the time, I didn't know what it was exactly that was wrong...I just knew it was something. And I figured if that was Jesus then I wasn't buying it. And I didn't. And I never did.
Step to me when you are able to discuss the eschatological urgency of the markan narrative and it's imposition on the ignorance of bodily integrity. Step to me when you explain how the Nag Hamadi has altered our understanding of the matricide of matriachy in Christianity. You can't even ascribe to tell me I am niave and stupid until you contain at the very least have the knowledge I have concerning this topic. Until then: realize you are talking out of your ass, and I will regard you as such.
Step to me when you get over yourself enough to have a conversation with God Himself. Shit, step to me when you get over yourself enough to have a conversation with anyone for that matter.
What you don't seem to understand here, is that I was Christian when I was niave and through education I arrived at atheism. My opinion changed as a result of gaining knowledge, not of losing it. It's extremely common, natural: to deafen the level of fundamentalism as you excell in studying scripture. This is why you don't meet fundamentalist theologians. And this is why Christians with education tend to be apologists. Cole has independantly studied scripture and it shows via his struggle to understand God and the contradictory nature of the Bible. Christianity isn't a comfortable place of niave acceptance Lori. It's a place of forever striving to know God in all the ways he has chosen to reveal himself. And this struggle is made apparent in the apologetics and gentle nature of educated Christians. This is the theme of all the prophets, the jews and the apostles, and should continue to be the theme of modern christians.
Striving to know God in all the ways that He has chosen to reveal Himself is exactly what I do. Apparently you only believe Him to reveal Himself one way, and that is through scripture, and I'm telling you that you are wrong. I do know God...I've had Him personally lead me through scripture pertaining to my own life. I've had Him reveal the prophecy of the Book of Revelations to me.
Save it, that's EXACTLY what you do.
You save it....I would never ever do such a thing. It makes no sense to...it's stupid and weak and pointless. I would never leave such a consequential decision up to someone else to make for me. I would never claim to be able to make such a decision based upon what it says in the Bible either. Ever since I was a little girl in church, I knew that it would take personal experience to serve as proof to me of God's existence. It's what I required, it's what I demanded, and it's exactly what I got. Don't tell me what I do...I'm not like you. I do not and will never understand how anyone can claim to believe something that they do not know. They can't really believe it...they just want to believe it for some reason. Not because they seek the truth, because without experience...without proof...without knowledge...they have no idea if it's the truth or not. So I assume that they have some other intent or agenda...one in which the truth is irrelevant. To know God, you have to sincerely desire to know the truth, and all of it's consequences. You have to want to get real, and not many people really want to.
Oh you mean like you? You profess to know God but are too fucking LAZY to actually read ONE book written about him.
I've read plenty of books about Him and about many other things. You have no idea what you are talking about apparently. And you're assuming things that don't make sense.
And if you actually READ the Bible you'd understand that the book is ESSENTIAL to being a Christian. Church may not be, but the scripture IS. You claim to avoid church because the people are judgmental. WAKE UP LORI! You avoid church because YOU are judgmental. You are too lazy to follow the scripture and don't want to be reminded of your duties so you avoid the church like a plague. Preach to me all you want how the church does not embody Jesus, but you don't either Lori, not even CLOSE! And in your claim that others are judgmental, you reveal yourself to be their judge!
I've already stated that I don't agree with the way in which I tend to judge church people. And allow me to reiterate, since you're apparently not paying attention...I will not condone or participate in an organization which presents itself as a cheap substitute for being born again and having a personal relationship with God. My body is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Am I Jesus? No. Am I perfect? Hell no. But have I given up my body and my life to Him? Yes. And to my amazement, He had accomplished the most wonderous things through me. Things that I have not done...only He through me. Things that have blown my mind and made my life so worth while. I am truly blessed and grateful.
Thanks for the swear word Christian, I love it when you let one fly for Jesus!
Swear word? Oh sorry. I didn't think that you would be offended. Jesus isn't. My bad...didn't realize that you were such a goody-two shoes.
Lori you are off your fucking rocker! I'm an atheist, that means I LACK faith. The LAST place on earth you are going to find an atheist is in a cult drinking poison. I don't have the niave mindset that would require that kind of conversion. Don't fool yourself, YOU are the cultist. By all defintions your religion is a cult (Especially when you compare born agains to the rest of Christian denominations.)
Cult:
-A system or community of religious worship and ritual. (CHECK!)
-A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader. (2/3irds of the worlds agree! CHECK!)
-The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual. (CHECK!)
-A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease. (CHECK!)
Now considering I am an atheist who relies on science, void of religion, you could NEVER classify me as such. Now "yank YOUR head out of your ass" and crack open a dictionary sometime.
There's no system, no ritual, no charismatic leader, no ceremony, no formality, no congregation, no religion. It's just me and the Holy Spirit sharing and caring one on one.
Moron, do you realize by saying that I was a gullible idiot to be a Christian, that you are calling yourself a guillable idiot? For someone who refers to others as "slow", you sure aren't quick on the up take, Lori.
I refered to you as a gullable idiot for claiming yourself to be a Christian without any proof of God's existence or of the validity of His Word. And I'm sorry, but that is my opinion. And apparently it is yours too, so what's the problem? It's ok if you say it, but it's not ok if I say it? I have proof, you didn't...that is the difference between you and I.
By what measure of SHEER ARROGANCE can you ascribe to tell me that I never knew God? That I never had a relationship with him? I was a Christian for 20 years Lori, I have a M.div. You never read the bible, profess to be new with christianity, and yet think you can tell me that I don't know or never knew God? Take your self righteousness and shove it right up your ass Lori. (To other Christians: (especially water) let me explain; my degree does not entitle me to tell other people whether they know god, THAT is up to their personal view, but it does verify that I have dedicated a great deal of my life to understanding theos, and for that reason, Lori should not ascribe to tell me what I know or don't know.)
Your degree does not in any way mean that you know God. I'm talking about personal knowledge and understanding...as in what comes from a personal relationship, not out of a book. It's the difference between knowing someone personally and reading their autobiography and/or a study of a collection of works by and/or about them and their philosphies. The fact is that you can never obtain proof of God's existence or an understanding of His law or nature from a book or collection of literature. I don't care how much you study, there is just no way. And you dear, are proof of that.
No Lori, you never read the bible, so you don't know. The bible talks just as much about NOT needing baptism as it talks about it being a requirement. If you actually studied the shit instead of listening to some moronic pastor that has bias, and no education, you would realize what completely errant claims you are making right now.
Who said I never read the Bible? And what pastor are you talking about? I don't go to church!!! You are just plain making shit up, and that's just weird ok?
So what you are saying right now is that NO ONE is a Christian unless they belong to your pathetic little denomination. So you don't just judge other religions or non believers, you judge anyone that doesn't fit into your tiny world view of right and wrong. Thanks for showing everyone just how limited and judgmental you are.
By what measure of arrogance can you say to the 1,900 other Christian denominations that your way is the ONLY way? Even Jesus praised the Samaritan woman, Lori. But you wouldn't know that, considering you never read the bible (I feel like a broken fucking record here.)
You just fucked up Lori. Not only did you offend every body here that does not belong to your denomination, but you just told fellow christians: cole and okinrus, that they don't really know God, and are confused little heathens.
Now, I don't agree with Okinrus and Cole, but at least they NEVER ascribed to tell one of their brethren that their way was the only way. So I'm taking a moment to praise Okinrus and Cole, because they have at least mastered what you have not: Comprehending that the path to Christ is diverse and to claim your way is the only way is to completely miss the mark regarding Christ's teachings. They at least TRY to understand scripture. They at least TRY to be tolerant. And they TRY to not fling around random curse words at people because they are filled with hate for their fellow man and can only mask it for a limited period of time, like YOU! Your mask fell off Lori. And you revealed yourself to be exactly what you condemn. You feel the need to sign all your posts "Love" but the rest of your words turn the signature into a joke. Cole never once signed love, but his desire to ascribe to understand the moral worth of the bible is very evident in the rest of his words. He doesn't have to provide a "false image" because the content of his post pays testimony to his character.
What denomination are you referring to? Denominationalism isn't even valid. There is one God, one Jesus, one Bible, one truth...and therefore no justification for denominations. The differences are lies, and so to subscribe to a particular denomination is to glorify the lies. I've explained already that it's just me and God here one on one, and that's the way I like it. Wouldn't involving most other things...material things...just serve as a distraction? You don't need an organization or a denomination. I've seen God work in and through the people around me and in my life in amazing ways...most times without their knowledge even. But it's through these associations that my testimony is made and witnessed to, and these others will come to know God because of what they have seen Him do for and in me. He will also provide me with a husband, who I know is my spiritual leader...someone I can truly share my faith with...and share my relationship with God with. I'm not saying that fellowship is not beneficial or important. After all, we don't live in a bubble, and I wouldn't want to. Life is all about learning, and sharing and witnessing is conducive to that. I'm just saying that you don't need a "structure" to share and learn about God.
Ya lori, I am ignorant, EVERYONE who does not follow your little tiny path to God is ignorant. Thanks for explaining that to us "slow" people, we could really use a sermon from someone who has yet to take one theology course or even read the bible. (I would find more wisdom in a friggin fortune cookie compared to what you have to offer. LMAO)
By your own admission, you are ignorant of what it is like to have a personal relationship with God. I have read the Bible. I know the author personally, and speak with Him on a regular basis. He has taught me Himself about the scripture that He has written, about it's meaning and it's application in my life and in life in general. He has revealed prophecy to me. Now you tell me...why would I sign up for a theology course when I have the author of the Bible, and the Creator of the universe at my side day and night? I'm not saying that studying theology is useless, quite the contrary. I'm saying that it's no substitute for the knowledge that comes from knowing Him. And that if you choose to study scripture without His interpretation and guidance, you will not understand it. It says that in the scripture itself. After all, my degree is in business and finance, and it's apparent from what you've written that I understand more about scripture than you do...and that's only because I have the Holy Spirit teaching me personally and you don't. So really, what is your degree worth then? It didn't get you knowledge of God existence, or any understanding of Him or His word...and isn't that what it's really all about in the end?
And I never said people should take my words for truth. I tell people CONSISTENTLY to go out there and study, to read, to find for themselves. I'm an educator lori, not a preacher. My goal isn't to convert others to my thinking, my goal is to inspire a thirst for knowledge. A knowledge that leads them to their OWN truth, what ever that truth may be, as long as it is accounted for and researched. That's why I have no judgment for a bishop spung but plenty for the falwells of the world. THAT is the difference between a bible scholar and a clergy member. Clergy are under no obligation to receive an education. They take counciling and psych courses to understand how to convert people and minister to spiritual needs. Religion scholars spend decades studying foreign languages, anthropoloy, geography, archeaology, history and scripture to earn their title. And we do it simply to understand, not to convert. Your assumptions about me are so off base it's friggin sad.
Well, I tell people the same thing...don't take my word for it, or anyone else's for that matter, but seek the truth for yourself. But I would not recommend that they research in the same way that you would. I would recommend that they search their hearts and their intentions, and to seek God personally through prayer. Because as you have testified to already, you will not find God in a book or in a university. You will find much written about Him, but no proof of His existence. You will only get proof from Him personally.
And there we have it! Forget what it actually tells us about God. Forget the thousands of years of his messages. Forget the duties, the moralities, the requirements. Just have faith, the rest requires too much work! And if you don't agree with me, it's because you don't REALLY have the spirit. What a fucking joke Lori.
We can all see how you are trying to errantly justify your laziness. And it's by NO coincidence that EVERY christian denomination EXCEPT yours thinks the Bible has importance. Gee, but your little denomination must be right. LMAO, sure! For 2,000 years no one had any idea what they were talking about. We had to wait for the spirit to encompass your denominatination, only to try and pretend you are part of the apostolic tradition. All those billions of Christians between then and now were just confused little heathens. And we should take YOUR word for it, even though you have nothing to back the claim. But I am the arrogant one, okay! LMAO
I'm not saying that the Bible has no importance. I'm saying that reading the Bible will not give you proof of God's existence or knowledge of Him or a relationship with Him. Studying the Bible will not bring about spiritual rebirth. The Bible is amazing...the most important book every written. But it's not just a book, it's a spiritual tool...and you can read and study it your entire life, but without the interpretation of the Holy Spirit, it's not going to get you where you need to be. Your own testimony is proof of that.
This is what I meant when I said you have no idea what empirical means. You can NOT take personal accounts that can NOT be verified as evidence. If we did then we might as well say aliens exist, elvis is alive, zeus was real and vishnu is a boar all because some two bit retard with a hallucination tells us its true.
Aliens exist. They're just not really aliens by popular definition. They are the nephilim....and demons. Abuction is a spiritual phenomenon, and aliens are a genetically engineered demonic brood that is and will be used to facilitate the end times deception of the antichrist and false prophet, and to administer the mark of the beast.
And I have plenty of empirical evidence, it's just that if you haven't noticed we're communicating via the internet and on a discussion forum. I can hardly offer it up in physical form to you right now. I have a mountain of empirical evidence to share, and will do so soon enough. But still, people who don't wish to believe will only have to say that it's trumped or fraudulent. What would it take really? God on a silver platter? And even then, someone would look at Him and say, "That's not God, that's an imposter." People believe what they want to believe...nothing more and nothing less. It's not your circumstance that determines what is revealed to you, it's your intentions.
Millions of Muslims say they have documented miracles, and experiances. Millions of Hindus say it, millions of Jains say it, millions of Sikhs, millions of Zoroastrians, millions of Buddhists say it, they must ALL be right, right? Because if I am to accept what you are saying, then you are killing your own assertion that your truth is the only truth. You can NOT have it both ways Lori. Personal experiance doesn't account for SHIT, THIS is why. It can matter to you personally all day long, but don't try to pass it off to secular society as proof, we have standards for proof and this does not meet them.
I have no doubt that many others have experienced miracles...why would I doubt that? The spiritual realm interacts with us constantly...it is all that we are influenced by. It's just that many of us choose not to be aware of that. There is only one truth, and I don't own it. And personal experience is the ONLY thing that does matter, because it's not up to me to convince you or to prove anything to you. We all have our own lives, our own intentions, and our own responsibilities. I am only responsible for myself. I don't rely on other humans to prove God's existence to me...I rely on Him to do that, and so He has, and so I understand that this is how it has to be. I can't seek for someone else.
Thanks again for the judgment, you make Jesus very proud, I'm sure! Okay Lori, I must be slow. I'm sure my tail bone was just planted there by god to trick me into believing that evolution occured. It's his way of throwing a monkey wrench into science to fool us, he's just testing our faith. I knew a freak like you once Lori. He told me that Dinosaur bones were planted in the ground by "The devil and two evil jews to fool you atheists". Then he told me to "throw away hell's keyboard and ride with jesus". I'm glad there's some of you still around. Fundies are fun! When you hold them up to your ear you can hear the ocean! Come here Lori, let me hold you! LMAO
That's not like me...I would never say anything so ridiculous. Of course evolution has occured...what monkey wrench? You are the one who is spewing fundamentalist crapola, not me. It must be your upbringing...former brainwashing? I didn't buy it remember? You obviously have no idea what my opinions are about evolution vs creation. You could ask, but why would you do that when you think you know everything already?
Lori I did EXACTLY that for 20 years. And NOTHING, I mean NOTHING happened. I had a stretch of time that lasted almost two years where I cried out and prayed on a weekly basis begging god with everything that I had to fill me with faith. Nothing happened. So what now Lori?
Yea, I can hear it now, "Please God, don't let me be wrong! Anything but that! Please be real so I don't have to be wrong! Dear Lord Jesus, please save my precious ego. Wah, wah, wah."
I took your experiment. And I'm not the only one, millions of atheists and agnostics have done and continue to do this, but nothing happens. Let me guess, you're going to say it's OUR fault somehow. That we don't have enough sincerity. It's a crock lori. You don't know my life, you don't know how I hung onto my faith, you don't know the hundreds of times I wept out of lonliness for god. The many nights I cried myself to sleep just begging him for an answer. You don't know and won't believe me because the truth of my experiance violates what you claim is so easy and verifiable. And that's okay! Because as I said earlier, personal experiance unless observed and documented by outside verifiable sources is not empirical. You can deny it, and the millions of us who have tried and failed can have that experiance. We will continue to exist whether or not it is believed by you. Your belief isn't what matters anyway, it is the documentation of the failed test which does.
My educated guess...just from what you've shown to me about yourself...is that He answers you constantly...everyday and all day long. And you're too busy running your mouth about how much you know and how smart and educated you are to give a listen. I mean, who are you kidding? What do you want to know God for anyway? What could He possible teach someone like YOU? You who's got it all figured out already? You with your intellect and you degree? What do you want God around for? To have someone esle to brag to? Maybe you could give Him some advice? Give me a break. I know one thing from experience, that of course is confirmed in the Bible...and that is that you can not seek God without humility. That's what it means when it says that you must enter the Kingdom like a child. And you have got to be the furthest thing from a humble child I've ever witnessed in my life.
And that's fine to have faith! People do it everyday, but people with faith should at the very least have the integrity to admit it is faith, and not use words like truth, evidence and empirical so flippantly. That is the difference between you versus Cole and Okinrus, they are at least admitting their religion is a faith. Most Christians do, but as you said, most Christians are not "really" christians, because they don't belong to your tiny little denomination of like minded individuals.
I have proof.
Another difference between you and I. You believe that Jesus is the word because some idiot patriarchal grecco roman who misterpolated pistle sophia wanted to crush the matriarchy from scripures. You could of course find this out for yourself if you took a class in hebrew and koine Greek, and then studied the scriptures, but that would just be too hard!
Instead you claim Jesus is the word so you can subsequently claim that you have no need for the bible. You are the victim of biased, interpolating, political/cultural agenda & propaganda. And though you could release yourself from that bondage, you prefer not to, because you ENJOY the bondage of ignorance. Ignorance allows you to continue in your tiny little world view of judgment, while enabling you to pretend that you are the martyr.
I know Him and He is the embodiment of the Word...God the Father, His Holy Spirit the author, and Jesus Christ the fulfillment. It's very simple actually, and has nothing to do with some political agenda. All has not yet been revealed. But the prophecy will be fulfilled...in Christ Jesus, as has all the rest.
But you can't escape the judgment of the true martyr if Jesus exists, Lori. Because he said unequivacally that to KNOW him you must LIVE THE LETTER OF THE LAW AND KNOW THEY ROD AND SCRIPTURES. And if you fail in this, that you are not worthy of reward. That's okay Lori, all you are hurting is yourself. See, I don't believe in hell or heaven, but you do. So you're the one who is going to have live with the fear of being drop kicked into a firey lake for being too friggin lazy and loving god too little to actually learn about him from the guide he sent you to know him. That much I have settled with "God". I'm a doubting Thomas, you're a Judas. (Let's hope that in the VERY least, you know who the hell these people are.)
I do. I've given my entire life to Him...to use as He sees fit. If it's not His will I don't want it. If I'm not living for Him, I don't want to live. That's why I know Him personally...that's why I am born again.
You've taken it up with a pastor, not the source. You must understand Lori, I am an atheist. I don't believe there is a source. Religion is a colletion of mythos that evolved with humanity. And we ascribe to a particular mythos in accordance most often to our region and culture. I accept this because this is what the evidence states.
What pastor are you talking about? You sound a bit crazy saying that...I've reiterated again and again that I'm not involved in organized religion. You're assuming things about me that are completely contradictory to anything I'm saying. That's crazy talk ok? So give it a rest. I'll determine what's true for me, and you determine what's true for you. If I say I've taken it up with God, then that's exactly what I mean.
I am most aware, and I am equally aware with the MANY passages regarding how baptism "profiteth little".
You told me you are under no obligation to follow the old law, but baptism IS old law. According to the new covenant (if youw ant to believe there is one) Jesus' blood is the baptism which washes humanity of sin. Water blessed by levite priests for earning purity is no longer needed. And this contradiction is reflected in the bible. You may want to cover your eyes Lori because we all know how you just HATE to read the bible:
Col. 2:11-12: "In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead" (In this verse we see that circumcision and baptism is not necessary, for Christ through sacrifice did away with such necessities.)
"I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. (Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel..." (1 Cor. 1:14-17).
If baptism is necessary for salvation then why did Paul downplay it and even exclude it from the description of what is required for salvation? It is because baptism isn't necessary for salvation according to many passages in the scripture.
Acts 10:44-46 says, "While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God. Then Peter said, ‘Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.' So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days". These people were saved. The gift of the Holy Spirit was on the Gentiles and they were speaking in tongues. This is significant because tongues is a gift given to believers, see 1 Cor. 14:1-5. Also, unbelievers don't praise God. They can't, according to the bible, because praise to the true God is a deep spiritual matter that is foreign to the unsaved (1 Cor. 2:14). Therefore, the ones in Acts 10 who are speaking in tongues and praising God are definitely saved and they are saved before they are baptized.
Another way of making this clear is to use an illustration. Let's suppose that a person, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8), believed in Jesus as his savior (Rom. 10:9-10; Titus 2:13), and has received Christ (John 1:12) as Savior. Is that person saved? Of course he is, according to these passages. Let's further suppose that this person confesses his sinfulness, cries out in repentance to the Lord, and receives Jesus as Savior and then walks across the street to get baptized at a local church. In the middle of the road he gets hit by a car and is killed. Does he go to heaven or hell? If he goes to heaven then baptism isn't necessary for salvation. If He goes to hell, then trusting in Jesus, by faith, isn't enough for salvation. Doesn't that go against the Scriptures that say that salvation is a free gift (Rom. 6:23) received by faith (Eph. 2:8-9)?
Saying that baptism is necessary for salvation is regarded as dangerous by some biblical passages because it is saying that there is something the Christian must do to complete salvation. See Gal. 2:21; 5:4.
The bible contradicts over what in fact saves you. Some parts say baptism (John 3:5), Jesus says knowing the law (Matthew 5:18), by the gospel (1 Cor. 15:2), some say good works (John 6:28), some say pure faith (Rom. 12:3). THIS is what causes a great deal of the division in denominations, and NO ONE can state unequivically they are right, because the bible agrees, and disagrees with each and every one of them! Unless of course, you're judgmental, ignorant of the Bible and too lazy to actually research what you claim to be truth. And this is what Christians like you do everyday, unfortuantely.
One is baptized in the Holy Spirit upon rebirth. Ever heard of the living water? What people do in religious ceremonies is an analogous demonstration of the real thing. How would you suppose that dipping your head in some h2o would accomplish anything except maybe washing some sweat from your brow? lol. It's crazy what some people will believe. This is just another example of how organized religion and it's rituals and dogmas are used as a replacement for rebirth. They would perpetuate a relationship with the organization, not with God Himself...which is just fine with most people because most people don't really want to know God Himself. After all, that would be too personal...and they wouldn't be able to designate certain days and times to put on their facades and visit with Him...He would be there 24/7, and would know them truthfully inside and out...and that's just too consequential.
You can't have faith without works and you can't have works without faith, and you can't have either one without the Holy Spirit and the knowledge and understanding that rebirth by it brings...they're all congruent.
Lori, you need to understand that "I" am not making it about a book. "I" am merely repeating what Jesus himself says. Like I said earlier, take it up with the bible, if it wasn't in there, "I" wouldn't be quoting it.
Jesus never said that you receive rebirth and salvation from studying the Bible. You misinterpret most everything don't you?
What I am confessing is that I was as you: thinking I "knew" the lord when I was a christian. All I knew was propaganda. And that became evident when I reaped an education and learned MORE about what is ascribed to God. Do I believe god is an existent being? Nope. But I do confess I know more about the works attributed to him than the average person. I don't think any Christian who attempts to understand the bible can honestly say they "know" the lord completely. Educated Christians proclaim the opposite, that they strive to know him, only being sure that he is an infinite mystery.
How can you
think you know the Lord?!?!?!? That's ridiculous. Believe me, when you meet Jesus Christ, there is no mistaking it. You know you know the Lord. If you don't know, then you don't know
Him. Do you have any idea how crazy that sounds to me? "Someone presented me with a bunch of propaganda so I imagined that I was having a relationship with God and actually believed my imagination, even though I wasn't." WHAT????? That's insane. Why would anyone do that???? You don't "imagine" you're having relationships with anyone else do you? Then why would you imagine one with God? You either are having one or you're not, and if you are, trust me, you know it. It's really not all that complicated.
I just love it when you judge and belittle! It makes me grin ear to ear when I see your manifest your hypocrisy for all to see. It does nothing but back up the whole point of this thread, that your brethren by and large are hypocrites.
It's not hypocrisy...you obviously didn't read my response to the thread starter. I agreed that many church people are hypocrits, which is why I don't associate with them. And I judge and belittle people all the time. I'm not Jesus, and I'm not good, and you'll never hear me say I am. And I'm not proud of it either. I do the best I can, which isn't very well most times. That is why my only hope is in Christ who lives in me. The rest of me can burn for all I care.
Ah Lori, because you don't understand the evolution of theology let me explain: These beliefs concerning Yhwh existed in Judaic oral tradition for about 6,000 years. They began writing down their scripture in 1,500 Bc. This means that the majority of the people in the bible actually had to read the scripture to come to know Yhwh, not vice versa. And the ones who didn't have scripture prior to then had to rely on oral tradition. The bottom line is: the majority of these people arrived at their faith by the words of OTHERS, not the word of God.
It's quite clear in the scriptures that the majority of these people had personal relationships with God in one of His forms, either human or spirit.
Again what you consider "proof" is not empirical evidence. You have no concept of what even qualifies as empirical evidence. And just so you know, EVERYTIME you say that people who use the bible are "ass backwards" you are insulting the majority of the people in the world, and you are insulting your VERY OWN GOD who said the scriptures are essential to knowing him. Go ahead and laugh lori, and don't mind while the rest of us point and laugh at you for your ridiculous and errant idealism.
You do not learn from scripture, and receive confirmation from God via personal experience. I'm telling you that it's the other way around. You learn from God via personal experience, and then receive confirmation in scripture most times. That has been my personal experience anyway.
Yes Lori, you should take my "brilliant" response seriously. If you honestly have conversations with God in which he responds to you in a physical audible manner, you should go see a psychologist. Because something may be wrong. Believe it or not, I'm not saying this to hurt you, I'm telling you this because that is a sign of psychosis. Most people are not able to communicate with deity directly in a physical manner, and the majority of people who claim to be able to do this have a mental disorder that needs treatment. It's called Hallucinogenic Schizophrenia.
So all of the people in the Bible that heard God's voice had schizophrenia? lol. You're a riot. It's not a physical audible voice, it's a telepathic or spiritual communication. Though He has manipulated material things in my physical environment before...things I've seen and heard in the physical realm that originated in the spiritual...it's rare...and it's purpose was very specific.
Doubtful, VERY doubtful. I don't believe you even know what the "major world religions" are. I have a masters degree in comparative religions Lori, and I have not studied "all of the major world religions" in depth. In school we cover the top five, and the others are often given an over view. I highly doubt you can name for me the prevalent trinities of Hinduism. I highly doubt you have studied the dharmapada, the Rig Vedas, the Upinashads. I highly doubt you know what zoroastrianism is, sikhism or Jainism. I bet you don't even know the major divisions in buddhism and how they are accounted for.
Who cares what you believe...believe what you want. Believe I'm a liar if it suits your purpose or your ego...which is your purpose apparently. Yes CC, you are the only person who has studied the major world religions. Whatever you say...
Don't lie lori, you're dealing with someone who can small bull shit a mile away when it comes to theology. I know when someone is saying shit for the sake of debate or if they have really done it. Their words and personal beliefs reveal everything about them concerning what they have studied. I know the cues lori, I can site them immediatly. And I am calling you out: You have never studied the major world religions, and if I were to ask you to give me an exegesis of the top five you'd have to pull it off the net just to pretend to pass.
What is wrong with you? Are you crazy? Seriously...there is something really really wrong here...
Fine Lori, you found a faith, good for you! But don't try to come off as if I have a fault for lacking one. And don't try to pretend that you are the alpha and omega of knowledge on god compared to every other being outside of your denomination.
I never have and never will claim such a thing. I claim to have a personal relationship....and that He's taught me many, many things, that have changed me and my life forever and for the better. I'm not any more special to Him than anyone else is. I'm not the only one who knows Him...plenty do. And plenty more could, if they only wanted to. And dear, I think that you definitely own the self-imposed title of the "alpha and omega of knowlege on god".
BULLSHIT! Lori I belong to the Wisconsin Paranormal research group. I have studied parapsychology in my spare time for years. I have spent decades searching for evidence, searching for faith, searching for answers, and I was lead to atheism. I didn't choose this path, it was the only logical alternative to the totality of what I had studied. I have exhausted the avenues Lori, and I don't just claim to have, I have the degrees to prove it. And I am STILL learning, and shall always continue to search. You however continue to insist that you are the alpha and omega and know my heart and have the truth compared to ALL others. And you have NOTHING in your corner to solidify this claim to the world. You're like a kid who covers her ears and shuts her eyes and screams "lalalalala" just to shut everything else out. You do it with the bible, you do it with foreign Christian denominations, you do it with education and you do it with science. You have a displacement problem Lori. EVERYTHING you have attributed to me manifests in you. Like I said before, you need a friggin psychologist.
Wow, defensive much? What a rant. I know God and you don't. That about says it all from my end. Except that it does you no good and lends you no credibility to assume these things about me. You don't know me, you just think you know everything. If you wanted to know me then you would ask questions of me...seek understanding through a relationship with me...through communication with me. Sound familiar at all?
Consider yourself lucky I don't bust out with theological terms just to belittle the shit out of you intellectualy. Scholars do this consistently, and I have always been regarded for NOT engaging in that. I go out of my way to always speak in laymen's terms so I do not ostracize people who desire to understand these concepts. But I can use those terms lori! Oh yes I can, anytime you want me to I can make you consult a fucking dictionary for every sentence I type. Would that solve our issue here? No, it would only serve to chase away people who honestly desire a discussion that everyone can maintain. But if you keep being a sarcastic asshole I'll employ it.
Consider yourself lucky that we're not having this interaction in person.
WOHOO Do ya triple dog dare me? (In case you haven't noticed lori your immature usage of the words "dare" and "duh" are really entertaining me.) I took your test for a decade, it failed.
No, you failed.
Now this is true. We have a million points of evidence against the claims of the bible, but Christians continue to believe. I understand this. Religion is about hope, so I will never condemn my fellow man for having faith, for needing hope. I condemn him for having selective morality. And this is why I condemn you as well.
The evidence that I have presented has been witnessed by those it was meant for. There is a mountain more to be presented in relation to this miracle that I have experienced, and will be when the time is right. I don't determine the time or the method, He does. All you would have now and via a conversation with me is testimony, and you will call me a liar so what's the point?
And what about your morality? You are absolutely obnoxious. What about that? Judge yourself...condemn yourself. It's more than enough to keep you busy for a lifetime, as it is with everyone else who has the humility to have the insight.
Lori, I don't "believe" there is no god. While you're looking up empirical look up atheist. I am WITHOUT belief. I only accept unmitigated fact, that's it, that's why I am devoid of faith. I only accept what is "truth" (look that up too) YOU are the one chalk full of faith, not I. And what is faith? "Belief in absence of evidence". Truth requires evidence. So you don't have truth lori. You have not ONE shred of truth to offer me in regards to evidence for God. Get your defintions straight because I'm tired of playing elementary school teacher.
Do you have to get in a ship and circumvent the entire globe to know that the earth is round? Well then, you have faith.
My faith is based upon a belief that was derived in response to proof, not mere evidence, but proof.
And there we have it, straight from god. Avoid the wisdom of the world, come onto him niavly like a child. And certainly don't ask why a religion would require you to remain ignorant to maintain a faith! That's evil! LMAO
Yea, and how exactly is maintaining a Father/child relationship, with God Himself, the creator of the universe, it's law and everything in it, including yourself...and seeking His counsel in all things...how is that avoiding wisdom or requiring ignorance? God is the source of all truth and knowledge. What you are proposing makes no sense at all.
Humility is what forces man to stay ignorant and feel insignificant. And ignorance and insignificance is what allows faith to exist. We do not need to debase the crap out of ourselves to arrive at truth. It is when we harnass our best abilities that we have come to understand truth. "All great Truths begin as blasphemies".
Humility is what brings men to God. And develops the relationship with Him that you sought in vain for years because you have no humility. Humility fosters a search for truth and for knowlegdge. Humility fosters learning...after all you have to be humble to admit that you have anything to learn. Without humility, you're a know-it-all. Sound familiar?
Yep, I take pride in knowledge versus faith. Faith is believing in something which could very well be false. And what is false has no virtue. If that makes me prideful, fine! I don't want to be devoid of intellect for reward. The Christian that refuses to pack in their brain is showing love and respect for what God bestowed upon him. You do not need to be ignorant to be of God Lori. I'm sorry that someone told you this and managed to make you believe it.
I'm not ignorant. I'm very intelligent and well educated. And for all of your intellect and education, you still don't know God, and you still don't understand Him. As a matter of fact, it's the worship of your own intellect and your pride that keeps you from Him. And if you're happy with that, then good for you. Good luck...you'll need it.
Yet another errant assumption that you ascribe to me yet manifest. I don't know it all, I admitt that every day when I walk into the class room and pick the brain of my professors who I regard as even more knowledgable then myself, which is why I pay them to be in their company. Right at this moment I am staring at a picture I have of einstein on my computer desk and on the picture are printed this great man's words: "True knowledge is knowing you know nothing". It is this philosophy which leads me to keep educating myself lori. I'm not about to stop my search simply because I am too lazy to keep looking. But you: you told us that your way is the only way, and everybody else is wrong, remember? You told us that the Bible is not necessary, it is "just a book", remember? So take your own advice.
You just profoundly contradicted yourself here. I told you that you didn't know God and you went ape shit on me and all you've done is boast ad nauseum about your intellect and education. So you're going to keep looking? Good. I said that you're not going to find God in a book, and you will not. He's not going to show up in class one day as a guest lecturer. If you want to know God, you're going to have to seek Him personally and in humility and for sincere reasons...in seeking the truth...just like everyone else who is born again has. Thanks for the credit, but this is not "my way"...it's "the way"...the only way that Jesus spoke of in the Bible. Which is not "just a book" to those who have the counsel and interpretation of the author, the Holy Spirit. To those it is a powerful spiritual tool. To the rest, it is just a book. The most profound and amazing book every written, but a book none the less. Because reading and studying it...shit, memorizing it and even trying in vain to follow all of the law described in it...will not bring you spiritual rebirth. You can not bring about your own spiritual rebirth through your works. Only God can do this for you through His Spirit...which is why you have to seek Him.
Unless you NEVER heard the name Jesus breathed prior to him coming directly to you and explaining himself to you, you derive your faith from an organization that is built upon the book!
Nope. Wrong.
Knowing this: there is nothing left to discuss. You made it quite evident that you aren't capable of debate, that you embody everything you accuse others of. You made it evident that you are comfortable in your ignorance and seek only to argue; not to actually learn or share anything of intellectual value. And lori, with as immature as you are I am sure you think that you just won an argument here because I am wrapping it up without addressing the rest of the post.
The saddest thing is you probably don't realize this isn't an argument. This is about debate: sharing ideas so that others can understand my view point and I can understand theirs. Take Cole for example, though we do not agree, Cole stated to me the justifications for his faith, and I understand these justifications. They may not have made moral sense to me, but they did make scriptural sense, logic was used, and hence the view was sound. Equally, I shared why it is I have difficulty accepting these justifications, and that was heard by Cole.
Though Cole and I were brutally honest with one another we never had to personally attack each other's character because it was evident that there was enough wit to continue a discussion without having to resolve to ad hominems. And Cole had enough Christian character to not betray Jesus by acting in direct contradiction to the moral messages he gave by cusing his "enemy". You are devoid of these things which makes Cole a worthy opponent. I'd sooner spend my time debating with him and answering michael's questions and engaging people with a rudimentary education then to spend one more second dirtying my intellect with your oral bowel movements.
I have been posting out here for years, and have debated many things with many people...hardly any of them holding the same beliefs as I do. No one believes the same things about everything. And I have been well received and respected for the most part. I've developed some very good friendships even. And I have never in all my years of reading or posting out here...I have never in my entire life in any arena...attempted to communicate with a more pompous and arrogant blowhard as you. Your sentiment is down right disgusting.
Love,
Lori
