Case: c20 vs Atheists

Lori_7 said:
What do they do? They turn and run...they don't look...they don't see. They don't want Him...they don't want to know Him. So they deny...deny me perhaps...definitely deny Him.

The thing is though, Lori, I am not denying that you believe your experiences are real. What I am doing is questioning the validity of them. You essentially said we have flawed minds, right? You're wanting me to trust your flawed mind, over my flawed mind or anyone elses flawed mind?

You accepted a report of someone who seemed sincere, I guess. What can I say? I require more than that. People can hallucinate and be delusional. Do people who hallucinate and are delusional really believe that they've seen such and such? I'd venture to guess they do. Do they doubt they're own experiences? I'd venture to guess they usually don't do that. If something seems real to you, you'd think it's real, even if it was the result of a flaw in the mind, epilepsy, brain tumor, or whatever that could be the cause of a hallucination, wouldn't you? Please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you're delusional or the person you're referring to was delusional. But that person COULD have been delusional at the time, right? Near Death Experiences could be the result of a lack of oxygen to the brain. If someone has a lot of guilt about things done in life, and has been brought up thinking that some hell exists or have heard that exists, I can see how that someone could have such a NDE about being in hell. I believe that people can seem sincere and still lie. Do you think Tammy Faye Bakker's attitude meant she was completely sincere in everything she did?

You deny the "spiritual" experiences of adherents of other religions/philosophies or deny they're from the "True God", don't you? So you deny, deny, deny, deny and repeatingly deny, don't you?

Lori_7 said:
Rely not on your reason, but on your EXPERIENCE...your KNOWLEDGE. Then and only then will you understand.

And please know that I am not preaching to you. I have lived through every bit of what I am talking about. I have lived it, and so I know.

Just like the beings in hell, it is your fear of condemnation and punishment that keeps you from Him. And in keeping from Him, you condemn and punish yourself, and remain "in hell". But I swear to you upon my life that there is no condemnation or punishment in Christ...only pure and unconditional love. I wish that my words could make you understand, but I know that it is only through your own experience that you will understand. Even so, know that I'm telling you the truth...based upon my own experience.

My experiences dont really lead me to believe that there's some loving God who personally cares for me. So what do you want me to say? Rely on the Bible which says such a God exists? Rely on your experience? Rely on the alleged experiences of other people who have experiences with some deity or higher power or "higher nature" or whatever? Or rely on my own experience?

What do you want me to do though? Do you want me to suddenly change my mind and think the "God of the Bible" is a "good guy"? If I really thought he was, then it could be different, couldn't it? I "remain" from him cause I don't like him. ;) Show me that he's a likeable character, that he is worthy of receiving my love, and that might interest me. Or show me that any other alleged deity is a "good guy", and that might interest me. I'm willing to try to put my faith and love in the right place, if I'm shown where that place is.
 
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mustafhakofi said:
yes it is your arse lori, thats in the sling, M*W is totally right, c20 was and is a sociopath, read his posts, and then checkout what a sociopath is it's enlightening.

some of us could see through the facard, a sociopath is skilled at making people listen, and to make people thing they are so so nice.
david koresh, and the rev jimmy jones, were too.

heres a link http://www.home.datawest.net/esn-re...rtcls/socio.htm
and heres a reply by c20, says a lot.
post 5 http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?p=708512#post708512

Wow, can you say paranoia? If you guys knew Jesus, you wouldn't be so afraid of Him or c2o or anything for that matter. For if God is with you, who can be against you? God is with c2o...I know that because I know God. You guys are always out here squawking about evidence right? Well, I am c2o's evidence...walking, talking, living, and breathing. For all I know, we're on different continents, have completely different lives, completely different testimonies, and have never spoken to each other before, and yet we know and speak of the same Love...from the same One. I would recognize someone who speaks of Him through knowledge of Him a mile away, and c2o is one...one of the few. I know what I'm talking about and you people are dead wrong about him...and about Him.

Love,

Lori
 
anonymous2 said:
The thing is though, Lori, I am not denying that you believe your experiences are real. What I am doing is questioning the validity of them. You essentially said we have flawed minds, right? You're wanting me to trust your flawed mind, over my flawed mind or anyone elses flawed mind?

I want for you to trust your own experience. Only God knows how to present Himself in a way to you that will allow you to know of Him and understand Him certainly. If you sincerely want this knowledge and understanding, then you will receive it. Just ask Him...it may not happen overnight, but it will certainly happen.


You accepted a report of someone who seemed sincere, I guess. What can I say? I require more than that. People can hallucinate and be delusional. Do people who hallucinate and are delusional really believe that they've seen such and such? I'd venture to guess they do. Do they doubt they're own experiences? I'd venture to guess they usually don't do that. If something seems real to you, you'd think it's real, even if it was the result of a flaw in the mind, epilepsy, brain tumor, or whatever that could be the cause of a hallucination, wouldn't you? Please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying you're delusional or the person you're referring to was delusional. But that person COULD have been delusional at the time, right? Near Death Experiences could be the result of a lack of oxygen to the brain. If someone has a lot of guilt about things done in life, and has been brought up thinking that some hell exists or have heard that exists, I can see how that someone could have such a NDE about being in hell. I believe that people can seem sincere and still lie. Do you think Tammy Faye Bakker's attitude meant she was completely sincere in everything she did?

What validates this guy's experience to me is what I got out of it, not necessarily what he got out of it. What he testified to was exactly, and I mean exactly what I have felt and experienced in relation to Christ in my own life. What happened to him in hell was metaphorical to what happened to me here on earth. Because even though we do have good here...the evil that is also here, makes it like hell on earth. And what goes on here between people and Jesus is the same as what goes on there, only to different degrees...but for the exact same reasons.


You deny the "spiritual" experiences of adherents of other religions/philosophies or deny they're from the "True God", don't you? So you deny, deny, deny, deny and repeatingly deny, don't you?

No, I don't at all. Most other world religions do not attest to having "spiritual" experiences, only dogmas. But I do know for a fact that many people have spiritual experiences outside of being born again. I also know that there are many spirits. There is the Holy Spirit, there are angels of the Lord, and there are fallen angels.





My experiences dont really lead me to believe that there's some loving God who personally cares for me. So what do you want me to say? Rely on the Bible which says such a God exists? Rely on your experience? Rely on the alleged experiences of other people who have experiences with some deity or higher power or "higher nature" or whatever? Or rely on my own experience?

Rely on your own experience...definitely...it's the ONLY way.


What do you want me to do though? Do you want me to suddenly change my mind and think the "God of the Bible" is a "good guy"? If I really thought he was, then it could be different, couldn't it? I "remain" from him cause I don't like him. ;) Show me that he's a likeable character, that he is worthy of receiving my love, and that might interest me. Or show me that any other alleged deity is a "good guy", and that might interest me. I'm willing to try to put my faith and love in the right place, if I'm shown where that place is.

Keep in mind that the only reason that you don't like Him is because you don't understand Him because you don't know Him. And may I say that you have got the best attitude ever, and that I am so happy and excited for you. Your intentions are golden, if what you say is sincere. What should you do? Pray. Pray and remain open and sincere as you seem to be. That's it. He'll take it from there.

Love,

Lori
 
Lori_7 said:
No, I don't at all. Most other world religions do not attest to having "spiritual" experiences, only dogmas. But I do know for a fact that many people have spiritual experiences outside of being born again. I also know that there are many spirits. There is the Holy Spirit, there are angels of the Lord, and there are fallen angels.

That's kind of what I was getting at. In this sense, you repeatedly deny that the other experiences are from the "True God", don't you? I don't think it's true that most other religions don't have "spiritual experiences", and only dogmas. Have you heard about one praying to God so that one may know the truth about the Book of Mormon? Christianity itself has dogmas, so I don't really see the huge distinction, as if Christianity is a "relationship" while other religions are merely "religions". I could investigate this further if you want. I question your statement that most other world religions don't have "spiritual experiences", and only dogmas. The Hajj to Mecca might be considered a religious experience to Muslims. Sufis are into "spiritual experience(s)" I think. If you want me to investigate it, I can, but off hand, I question what you said. :) I wonder what you mean by world religions though. I suppose that would need to be classified. Also, I question why you use that term. Why would it matter if it was a "world religion" or not? Christianity was not a world religion when it started, was it? Yet it was true, to you, wasn't it?

I am just trying to say that "deny" is not necessarily the horrible word that some Christians seem to make out of it. Christians repeatedly deny many things, don't they? They deny Muhammad was a prophet of God, don't they? And Joseph Smith? And Guru Nanak? And that Baha'ullah was an "incarnation" of God? And that Buddha received enlightment under the Bodhi Tree? That Mahavira was one of the 24 Tirthankaras or whatever? That Sai Baba is an incarnation of God? etc? Right? Christians deny MANY things, or they try to put them in a lower position to Christianity, don't they? And some Christians repeatedly deny doctrines which other Christians affirm, don't they?

The word "deny" is not necessarily bad, is it? :)
 
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anonymous2 said:
That's kind of what I was getting at. In this sense, you repeatedly deny that the other experiences are from the "True God", don't you? I don't think it's true that most other religions don't have "spiritual experiences", and only dogmas. Have you heard about Mormon praying to God so that one may know the truth about the Book of Mormon? Christianity itself has dogmas, so I don't really see the huge distinction, as if Christianity is a "relationship" while other religions are merely "religions". I would investigate this further if you want, but off hand, I say your statement is wrong. ;) I wonder what you mean by world religions though. I suppose that would need to be classified.

I just am trying to let you know that "deny" is not necessarily the horrible word that some Christians seem to make out of it. You repeatedly deny many things, don't you? You deny Muhammad was a prophet of God, don't you? And Joseph Smith? And Guru Nanak? And that Baha'ullah was an incarnation of God? And that Buddha received enlightment under the Bodhi Tree? That Mahavira was one of the 24 Tirthankaras or whatever? That Sai Baba is an incarnation of God? etc? Right? Christians deny MANY things, or they try to put them in a lower position to Christianity, don't they? And some Christians repeatedly deny doctrines which other Christians affirm, don't they?

The word "deny" is not necessarily bad, is it? :)

All experiences are from the true God...everything is from Him. It is YOUR intentions behind what you seek and why that determine what experience or lack there of that you receive. In other words, you get what you ask for. It is best not to place conditions on what it is that you ask for, but to seek the truth with pure sincerity...whatever the truth is. To place limitations on it doesn't make sense. To look only within the confines of a particular dogma doesn't make sense. But to ask God, "Give me the truth, whatever it may be", is humble and open and sincere and makes sense...given that you get what you ask for. For the opposite is also true...if you ask for a lie, you will get a lie. There are plenty of spirits that are really good at lying, and are ready and waiting for such a request from you.

And yea, Christianity is the only religion which teaches of a personal relationship with God Himself through Christ, and via the Holy Spirit. It is the only one that says that knowledge comes from this personal relationship with God Himself, and not from one's own actions or disciplines or dogmas or scriptures.

Love,

Lori
 
Lori_7 said:
And yea, Christianity is the only religion which teaches of a personal relationship with God Himself through Christ, and via the Holy Spirit. It is the only one that says that knowledge comes from this personal relationship with God Himself, and not from one's own actions or disciplines or dogmas or scriptures.

I dispute this but I don't know enough off hand to find a good "refutation". I question your Christianity. Your Christianity is not the only one. To say that Christianity is "knowledge [which] comes from this personal relationship with God Himself, and not from one's own actions or disciplines or dogmas or scriptures". I question this. You base your belief on the Bible, or it confirms your belief, am I right or not? Christianity has to be partially based on dogmas and scripture, to me, unless you wish to say that the Bible is just some sort of guide and not the absolute "Word of God", to me.

Though I could have read you wrong.
 
anonymous2 said:
I dispute this but I don't know enough off hand to find a good "refutation". I question your Christianity. Your Christianity is not the only one. To say that Christianity is "knowledge [which] comes from this personal relationship with God Himself, and not from one's own actions or disciplines or dogmas or scriptures". I question this. You base your belief on the Bible, or you got it from the Bible, am I right or not? Christianity has to be based on dogmas and scriptures, to me, unless you wish to say that the Bible is just some sort of guide and not the absolute "Word of God", to me.

Though I could have read you wrong.

Well, the Bible is the Word of God, but I do not base my belief on it. I base my belief on my knowledge of God, which does not come from the Bible but from my relationship with Him...from real life experience. The Bible does confirm what I learn to be true from Him and through experience. What I am saying is that I did not take the Bible's "Word" for it...I could not. I could not convince myself that just because it was written that it was true. I had to KNOW for sure, and the only way to know for sure is to experience it. And so that is what I asked for. I had knowledge of the scriptures though when I asked...I had knowledge of lots different theologies when I asked, and in asking I did not place limitations or conditions on the answer that I received because of these theologies. I wanted the truth, no matter what it was. And to be totally honest with you, I wasn't thrilled with the idea of the truth being that the Bible was true and that Jesus was in fact God come to earth in the flesh. Because at that time, not knowing Him or understanding His Word, He didn't sound all that appealing to me. So when I say that I understand where you are right now, and your sentiment...it's true in that respect. I was wrong about Him back then. You can not imagine in your wildest dreams how wonderful He is in every way...you just can not imagine. The human mind or imagination doesn't have the capability to estimate or predict or intellectualize God. Every time I try to figure Him out, I end up severely underestimating Him. He blows my mind to bits...and in the best way. He's just so amazing, and so loving and good to me. It just seems impossible because it is so different from anything we are used to experiencing here on earth and in the flesh...so much better...infinitely better.

Love,

Lori
 
Lori_7 said:
Well, the Bible is the Word of God, but I do not base my belief on it. I base my belief on my knowledge of God, which does not come from the Bible but from my relationship with Him...from real life experience. The Bible does confirm what I learn to be true from Him and through experience. What I am saying is that I did not take the Bible's "Word" for it...I could not. I could not convince myself that just because it was written that it was true. I had to KNOW for sure, and the only way to know for sure is to experience it. And so that is what I asked for. I had knowledge of the scriptures though when I asked...I had knowledge of lots different theologies when I asked, and in asking I did not place limitations or conditions on the answer that I received because of these theologies. I wanted the truth, no matter what it was. And to be totally honest with you, I wasn't thrilled with the idea of the truth being that the Bible was true and that Jesus was in fact God come to earth in the flesh. Because at that time, not knowing Him or understanding His Word, He didn't sound all that appealing to me. So when I say that I understand where you are right now, and your sentiment...it's true in that respect. I was wrong about Him back then. You can not imagine in your wildest dreams how wonderful He is in every way...you just can not imagine. The human mind or imagination doesn't have the capability to estimate or predict or intellectualize God. Every time I try to figure Him out, I end up severely underestimating Him. He blows my mind to bits...and in the best way. He's just so amazing, and so loving and good to me. It just seems impossible because it is so different from anything we are used to experiencing here on earth and in the flesh...so much better...infinitely better.

Love,

Lori

As I said in this forum in the past, I used to "believe". When I was a teen, I used to believe every word or basically of the Bible. If I were to classify myself, I would say I was a fanatic. There were things in my life which gradually led to the loss of my faith, and it was very traumatic. I'd say it was the most traumatic thing or one of the most traumatic things which has happened in my life. Reading the Bible as something besides a "book from above" contributed to some of my loss of faith. I read skeptical viewpoints about it. I know that if there's a God, I can't put him in a box, and that's not my intention with my posts, as if I'm saying "I'm smarter than God". That's not my intention. My intention is, "Let me analyze the 'God of the Bible'". To already assume he's the "True God" is to not really be able to use one's mind to reason things out, in my opinion.
 
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Lori_7: Wow, can you say paranoia? If you guys knew Jesus, you wouldn't be so afraid of Him or c2o or anything for that matter. For if God is with you, who can be against you? God is with c2o...I know that because I know God. You guys are always out here squawking about evidence right? Well, I am c2o's evidence... walking, talking, living, and breathing. For all I know, we're on different continents, have completely different lives, completely different testimonies, and have never spoken to each other before, and yet we know and speak of the same Love...from the same One. I would recognize someone who speaks of Him through knowledge of Him a mile away, and c2o is one...one of the few. I know what I'm talking about and you people are dead wrong about him...and about Him.
*************
M*W: Lori, let me ask you a question. How could people who don't have a need to worship some higher power or be caught up in the massive mind control game of organized religion, be called paranoid? We're not afraid of god or what he could do to us, we just don't believe a god exists. We're not afraid of Jesus or what he could do to us for not believing. Most of us have been there, too. We readily know the Jesus of christianity, but we have been given greater wisdom from outside that box, and we can clearly see that it is a false doctrine. So why is it you think we are paranoid? I believe everyone you called 'paranoid' would like to hear your explanation.
 
Medicine Woman said:
Lori_7: Wow, can you say paranoia? If you guys knew Jesus, you wouldn't be so afraid of Him or c2o or anything for that matter. For if God is with you, who can be against you? God is with c2o...I know that because I know God. You guys are always out here squawking about evidence right? Well, I am c2o's evidence... walking, talking, living, and breathing. For all I know, we're on different continents, have completely different lives, completely different testimonies, and have never spoken to each other before, and yet we know and speak of the same Love...from the same One. I would recognize someone who speaks of Him through knowledge of Him a mile away, and c2o is one...one of the few. I know what I'm talking about and you people are dead wrong about him...and about Him.
*************
M*W: Lori, let me ask you a question. How could people who don't have a need to worship some higher power or be caught up in the massive mind control game of organized religion, be called paranoid? We're not afraid of god or what he could do to us, we just don't believe a god exists. We're not afraid of Jesus or what he could do to us for not believing. Most of us have been there, too. We readily know the Jesus of christianity, but we have been given greater wisdom from outside that box, and we can clearly see that it is a false doctrine. So why is it you think we are paranoid? I believe everyone you called 'paranoid' would like to hear your explanation.

c2o was called a sociopath and compared to jim jones and david koresh...and that is without a doubt over the top paranoia. i didn't say that anyone who didn't believe in God was paranoid.

I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT ORGANIZED RELIGION.

And you most certainly do not KNOW Jesus. You know OF Him...what it says in books. Don't you recall? You think that I'm delusional because I claim to KNOW Him. Knowing someone involves having a personal relationship with them...otherwise you only know OF them, or have heard things about them...which doesn't compare. You don't hear His voice, you don't listen, you don't talk to Him, you don't learn from Him, you don't share your life with Him, you don't give your life to Him, and you do not see Him work in your life, you do not feel His presence, you do not feel His love...you don't know jack about Jesus.

Stop trying to act like I'm getting my knowledge of Him from organized religion or from the Bible or from anything in this world...it's getting on my nerves. I get my knowledge of Him from HIM...period. And thanks. :)

Love,

Lori
 
anonymous2 said:
As I said in this forum in the past, I used to "believe". When I was a teen, I used to believe every word or basically of the Bible. If I were to classify myself, I would say I was a fanatic. There were things in my life which gradually led to the loss of my faith, and it was very traumatic. I'd say it was the most traumatic thing or one of the most traumatic things which has happened in my life. Reading the Bible as something besides a "book from above" contributed to some of my loss of faith. I read skeptical viewpoints about it. I know that if there's a God, I can't put him in a box, and that's not my intention with my posts, as if I'm saying "I'm smarter than God". That's not my intention. My intention is, "Let me analyze the 'God of the Bible'". To already assume he's the "True God" is to not really be able to use one's mind to reason things out, in my opinion.

Why did you used to believe when you were younger?

And even though I haven't read the answer to that question, let me ask you if based upon that answer, you see how it is not a good idea to use your mind to reason things out, or to analyze God? After all...you could be wrong.

I honestly do not see how anyone could ever deduct God...His existence, His nature, His intentions, His will or plan for their lives. How in the world do you hope to do that? And to the extent that you think you will KNOW? KNOW FOR SURE? You will never know for sure that way. You will theorize...you will assume...you will take educated guesses...and you will doubt. I'm telling you, and please believe me, with the most honest and helpful intentions...that you will never know for sure unless you know Him personally. Unless you experience Him in your life personally. This knowledge does not come from a book, or from a historical account, or from a seminary, or from other's testimony, or from organized religion, or from anything of this world. Knowledge of Him comes from Him and directly to you...through experience in your own life that makes you know, beyond the shadow of a doubt that He is there for you personally, and of His nature, and of His love, and of His law, His truth.

So pray, pray, pray...tell Him what you want. Tell God that you want to know for sure about Him...the truth...whatever it may be. Tell Him to show you personally...to give you something in experience that is without a doubt. Keep this in mind...that God gives you exactly what you ask for. He sees straight through to your heart and knows the true sincerety of your intent. What you seek is what you will find...so seek the truth...no matter what it may be. Place no conditions on it at all...don't qualify your search with the preconceived notions of your intellect, or of any doctrine. Just open up your heart and let Him do His thing. You'll see...

Love,

Lori
 
Lori_7 said:
Why did you used to believe when you were younger?

It gave me hope. You ever heard of that Depeche Mode song, "Your own, personal, Jesus..someone to hear your prayers, someone who's there?" Well, to me, that's kind of how Jesus was to my mindset at the time. I thought it was true. In my opinion, I was kind of like C20 in this way-"I like[d] to talk about it".

Lori_7 said:
And even though I haven't read the answer to that question, let me ask you if based upon that answer, you see how it is not a good idea to use your mind to reason things out, or to analyze God? After all...you could be wrong.

This is a difference in our viewpoints. To me, I'm not necessarily "analyzing God". I'm analyzing the "God of the Bible". I'm not assuming that the God of the Bible is the "True God". Sure, I could be wrong, but what do you want me to do? Abandon my own reason? Abandon my own judgement? If you read the Qur'an, would you think you were "analyzing God" per se, or that you were "analyzing the God of the Qur'an"? Or if you read the Vedas, are you now analyzing God or are you analyzing Brahman or whatever Hindu deities may be involved? Or the Ginza Rba (a holy book) of the Mandaeans? See the difference? You are a Christian, so to you, there's basically little difference between the distinction I'm making, right? But I'm not a Christian, so there's a big difference in my mind.
 
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Lori_7 said:
And you most certainly do not KNOW Jesus. You know OF Him...what it says in books. Don't you recall? You think that I'm delusional because I claim to KNOW Him. Knowing someone involves having a personal relationship with them...otherwise you only know OF them, or have heard things about them...which doesn't compare. You don't hear His voice, you don't listen, you don't talk to Him, you don't learn from Him, you don't share your life with Him, you don't give your life to Him, and you do not see Him work in your life, you do not feel His presence, you do not feel His love...you don't know jack about Jesus.

Stop trying to act like I'm getting my knowledge of Him from organized religion or from the Bible or from anything in this world...it's getting on my nerves. I get my knowledge of Him from HIM...period.

Wow, Lori - you just don't see how amazingly arrogant and self-rightous you are! You don't get it, I don't think anybody here would be spending much time bashing on your beliefs if you didn't throw them out and say YOU ARE WRONG, I AM RIGHT.

Most of us would be perfectly happy to let you believe anything you want, and you let us believe anything we want - but there will always be that snide "sure, believe whatever you want . . . but you will be TORTURED IN HELL (by my loving God)" from you. Yuck.
 
anonymous2 said:
It gave me hope. You ever heard of that Depeche Mode song, "Your own, personal, Jesus..someone to hear your prayers, someone who's there?" Well, to me, that's kind of how Jesus was to my mindset at the time. I thought it was true. In my opinion, I was kind of like C20 in this way-"I like[d] to talk about it".

I love that song. Marilyn Manson just did a remake of it, and it totally rocks.

But why did you think it was true? Was it just something that you wanted to believe, or did it just seem to make sense given the information that you had at the time, or did you have real proof?



This is a difference in our viewpoints. To me, I'm not necessarily "analyzing God". I'm analyzing the "God of the Bible". I'm not assuming that the God of the Bible is the "True God". Sure, I could be wrong, but what do you want me to do? Abandon my own reason? Abandon my own judgement? If you read the Qur'an, would you think you were "analyzing God" per se, or that you were "analyzing the God of the Qur'an"? Or if you read the Vedas, are you now analyzing God or are you analyzing Brahman or whatever Hindu deities may be involed? Or the Ginza Rba (a holy book) of the Mandaeans? See the difference? You are a Christian, so to you, there's basically little difference between the distinction I'm making, right? But I'm not a Christian, so there's a big difference in my mind.

I don't think that there's so much of a difference. I'm saying don't have preconceived notions about God and just to be open to the truth whatever it is and so are you...right? I would say that the difference is that you are looking to books and doctrines and I'm looking for something spiritual to happen to you personally, like a big spiritual frying pan to the head. Something...who knows what it would be but God...in your personal life that let you know beyond the shadow of a doubt that God is real and that He is really there for you. For Him to lead you and teach you through your experience, and not necessarily out of a book you know? Just keep in mind that everything happens for a reason, and that He will answer every prayer you pray to Him. I'm all excited for you and shit! You're one of the few people out here that really seem sincere and humble and open...a real seeker. So seek and you shall find.

Love,

Lori
 
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Gravity said:
Wow, Lori - you just don't see how amazingly arrogant and self-rightous you are! You don't get it, I don't think anybody here would be spending much time bashing on your beliefs if you didn't throw them out and say YOU ARE WRONG, I AM RIGHT.

Most of us would be perfectly happy to let you believe anything you want, and you let us believe anything we want - but there will always be that snide "sure, believe whatever you want . . . but you will be TORTURED IN HELL (by my loving God)" from you. Yuck.

Wow, you're so easily amazed...lol. Don't put words in my mouth...I didn't say "you are wrong, I am right"...I said that I don't base my beliefs on what it says in a book or in a doctrine, and you do. And I said that it was getting on my nerves that some out here, if not everyone aside from c2o, can't seem to get it through their heads that I don't base my knowledge of God from organized religion or from a book or a doctrine of any kind, but from an actual, spiritual, and many times "telepathic" so to speak relationship with Him...spirit to Holy Spirit. I base my beliefs on this spiritual interaction and the personal experience that it results in and nothing else. If I did not have this personal relationship with God Himself, I would not believe as I do, because I would not have knowledge of Him...I would only have information about Him...I would only know through my own intellect what is written in a book or theorized amongst men, and that would not be good enough for me.
The difference between us is that I do not seek to contemplate through my intellect, but to know through my experience. I do not seek understanding from a book with my mind, but from God Himself within my life.

There is nothing arrogant or self-righteous about that...it is simply the truth about a difference in approach that exists between myself and some others. I wished to clarify that there was indeed a difference since it seems that others are always trying to assume that I have used and am using the same approach as they are. I'm not saying that I'm right and you're wrong...I'm clarifying...this is what I do and this is what you do, and there is a difference between our approach to knowledge. You seek it from a book...I seek it from it's source...the author of the book. It's the difference between reading someone's autobiography and knowing them personally. How is that arrogant? Are you saying that you think my way is right and your way is wrong then? Cool. ;) Try my way then. You'll see He's not yucky, but oh so yummy. But no, you'd rather turn from Him...even if it's to put your face in a book and pretend that you seek knowledge of Him from it. If you truly seek knowledge of Him, then get your face out of a book and turn to Him! Duh! (Now that was more along the lines of arrogant and self-righteous). You have a choice...don't blame Him for the one you make...it's your own...free will's a bitch huh?

Oh, and hell is a place that is void of God. His Spirit does not dwell there and that is why there is no good there, only evil. So, it is not His presence, but His absence from this place that provides for the torture. And just so I'm sure I have this straight...you don't want God right?

And again, please don't put words in my mouth. I don't go around snidely pointing out that people will be tortured in hell. As a matter of fact that seems to be the opposition's mantra...always referring to it to make God seem like a big meanie. Funny...you don't want to live with God and choose to reject Him...so He provides a place for you to live where He is not present...and you blame Him for it. lol...interesting.

Love,

Lori
 
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Lori_7 said:
I love that song. Marilyn Manson just did a remake of it, and it totally rocks.

But why did you think it was true? Was it just something that you wanted to believe, or did it just seem to make sense given the information that you had at the time, or did you have real proof?

I felt it was true. I thought it was true from my reading. There was a feeling to it and it also appealed to my mind. Until I started finding out there was more to Christianity than I thought, and like I said there were things which happened in my life which I'd say helped contribute to my loss of faith. Reading skeptical viewpoints didn't help ;) Well, depending on how you want to look at it. Perhaps from a Christian viewpoint, it helped lead to my downfall. From a non-Christian viewpoint, perhaps it led to partial detoxification. ;)
 
anonymous2 said:
I felt it was true. I thought it was true from my reading. There was a feeling to it and it also appealed to my mind. Until I started finding out there was more to Christianity than I thought, and like I said there were things which happened in my life which I'd say helped contribute to my loss of faith. Reading skeptical viewpoints didn't help ;) Well, depending on how you want to look at it. Perhaps from a Christian viewpoint, it helped lead to my downfall. From a non-Christian viewpoint, perhaps it led to partial detoxification. ;)


Hmm...from a Christian perspective, your birth led to your downfall...lol. What you've said sounds so "organized religious"..."if you don't walk, talk, eat, breath, and shit like we do, Jesus won't love you". That's why they call the lady riding the beast in revelations the mother of all prostitutes...she's been selling the love of Christ. It's a lie...it's not for sale...not for any amount of money or for any deed or work or behaviour either. God's love is unconditional, and it's something that you feel inside of you. All you have to do to feel it is want to feel it...that's it.

So another question then...what did you think that being born again meant? I often wonder about how church people who aren't born again consider the scripture regarding it, and the testimony of those who are. Do they just ignore it, or think it's metaphorical? Or do they think they are even when they're not because they just don't understand what it means? Or do they know that they're not but just don't admit to it because they're afraid of not being part of the group or measuring up to standards, so they fake it with rhetoric? I wonder this because I know that you can not be born again and not know it...there is just no way. When God introduces Himself to you, you know it...there is no doubt...He doesn't leave any doubt...it's the whole point of the interaction...to eliminate doubt...to provide knowledge of Him first hand. Like I said, it's like a spiritual frying pan to the head. When you hear His voice and feel His presence there is no mistaking it...you will never, ever be the same again. Even when He just answers a prayer by moving in your life and teaching you things through your experience. I've had Him explain things to me without me hearing the voice. Sometimes it's just that something occurs to you from "out of nowhere" that you've never considered before, and changes your perception entirely...an epiphany. You know that in response to prayer that it is no coincedence. And if it keeps happening...how many coincedences can you rack up over time before you realize? Point is that He doesn't leave any doubt...what He starts, He finishes. And if what you want is to know Him...the truth about Him...then He will know the perfect way to show you, and to leave no doubt in your mind. He has done things in my life that have absolutely blown my mind, and it will blow yours too when you see the evidence of it...and your own evidence too. Once you're born again, you are never the same again, because you know, and knowledge of God changes your perception about everything.

Love ya.
 
Lori_7 said:
Hmm...from a Christian perspective, your birth led to your downfall...lol.

You can say that, but I mean my "falling away".

Lori_7 said:
So another question then...what did you think that being born again meant?

What can I say? A spiritual rebirth? I thought I was on my way to heaven (at least eventually) :) My "conversion" experience was a happy one, from what I recall. I'm not going to get into a discussion if I was "truly born again" or not. I know a Christian position is that I wasn't a "true believer" in the first place. People are free to believe what they wish.

Lori_7 said:
You know that in response to prayer that it is no coincedence.

Well, maybe you've gotten responses to prayers, but my experience was more like prayer fell upon deaf ears. Emotionally, I'd say I wanted to think that God heard my prayers, but my experience didn't really support that.

As for people in the church who are not "born again", some people may just go to church as a social gathering mainly. Which, from a non-Christian viewpoint, I don't see a big problem with. Some may go to church out of habit since they went since youth, or since their relatives go. I wouldn't say it was "organized religion" that "brought me down", although "you should go to church", "you shouldn't dress like that" probably didn't help. I'd say part of it was delving too far into the Bible, instead of just accepting a simple prepared "gospel". Some may consider it "bibliotry" perhaps, but to me, it wasn't deifying the Bible, it was trying to uphold it as the "Word of God".

I saw problems with it from my reading, which I tried to reconcile, or I tried to ignore. But eventually they were too difficult to ignore I guess. Then I went further into study and that helped to pretty much ruin the situation for me. Sure, the Bible could be full of errors and what is said about Jesus could still be true I suppose. But I have a difficult time putting faith in what the Biblical authors wrote.
 
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This is worth taking the time to read, truly funny stuff - but also cutting logic embedded in the humor:


George Carlin on religion


When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!

But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is fucked up.

Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man.

No woman could or would ever fuck things up like this. So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a shit. Doesn't give a shit, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.

So rather than be just another mindless religious robot, mindlessly and aimlessly and blindly believing that all of this is in the hands of some spooky incompetent father figure who doesn't give a shit, I decided to look around for something else to worship. Something I could really count on.

And immediately, I thought of the sun. Happened like that. Overnight I became a sun-worshipper. Well, not overnight, you can't see the sun at night. But first thing the next morning, I became a sun-worshipper. Several reasons. First of all, I can see the sun, okay? Unlike some other gods I could mention, I can actually see the sun. I'm big on that. If I can see something, I don't know, it kind of helps the credibility along, you know? So everyday I can see the sun, as it gives me everything I need; heat, light, food, flowers in the park, reflections on the lake, an occasional skin cancer, but hey. At least there are no crucifixions, and we're not setting people on fire simply because they don't agree with us.

Sun worship is fairly simple. There's no mystery, no miracles, no pageantry, no one asks for money, there are no songs to learn, and we don't have a special building where we all gather once a week to compare clothing. And the best thing about the sun, it never tells me I'm unworthy. Doesn't tell me I'm a bad person who needs to be saved. Hasn't said an unkind word. Treats me fine. So, I worship the sun. But, I don't pray to the sun. Know why? I wouldn't presume on our friendship. It's not polite.

I've often thought people treat God rather rudely, don't you? Asking trillions and trillions of prayers every day. Asking and pleading and begging for favors. Do this, gimme that, I need a new car, I want a better job. And most of this praying takes place on Sunday His day off. It's not nice. And it's no way to treat a friend.

But people do pray, and they pray for a lot of different things, you know, your sister needs an operation on her crotch, your brother was arrested for defecating in a mall. But most of all, you'd really like to fuck that hot little redhead down at the convenience store. You know, the one with the eyepatch and the clubfoot? Can you pray for that? I think you'd have to. And I say, fine. Pray for anything you want. Pray for anything, but what about the Divine Plan?

Remember that? The Divine Plan. Long time ago, God made a Divine Plan. Gave it a lot of thought, decided it was a good plan, put it into practice. And for billions and billions of years, the Divine Plan has been doing just fine. Now, you come along, and pray for something. Well suppose the thing you want isn't in God's Divine Plan? What do you want Him to do? Change His plan? Just for you? Doesn't it seem a little arrogant? It's a Divine Plan. What's the use of being God if every run-down shmuck with a two-dollar prayerbook can come along and fuck up Your Plan?

And here's something else, another problem you might have: Suppose your prayers aren't answered. What do you say? "Well, it's God's will." "Thy Will Be Done." Fine, but if it's God's will, and He's going to do what He wants to anyway, why the fuck bother praying in the first place? Seems like a big waste of time to me! Couldn't you just skip the praying part and go right to His Will? It's all very confusing.

So to get around a lot of this, I decided to worship the sun. But, as I said, I don't pray to the sun. You know who I pray to? Joe Pesci. Two reasons: First of all, I think he's a good actor, okay? To me, that counts. Second, he looks like a guy who can get things done. Joe Pesci doesn't fuck around. In fact, Joe Pesci came through on a couple of things that God was having trouble with.

For years I asked God to do something about my noisy neighbor with the barking dog, Joe Pesci straightened that cocksucker out with one visit. It's amazing what you can accomplish with a simple baseball bat.

So I've been praying to Joe for about a year now. And I noticed something. I noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same 50% rate. Half the time I get what I want, half the time I don't. Same as God, 50-50. Same as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe, the wishing well and the rabbit's foot, same as the Mojo Man, same as the Voodoo Lady who tells you your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles, it's all the same: 50-50. So just pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself.

And for those of you who look to The Bible for moral lessons and literary qualities, I might suggest a couple of other stories for you. You might want to look at the Three Little Pigs, that's a good one. Has a nice happy ending, I'm sure you'll like that. Then there's Little Red Riding Hood, although it does have that X-rated part where the Big Bad Wolf actually eats the grandmother. Which I didn't care for, by the way. And finally, I've always drawn a great deal of moral comfort from Humpty Dumpty. The part I like the best? "All the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put Humpty Dumpty back together again." That's because there is no Humpty Dumpty, and there is no God. None, not one, no God, never was. In fact, I'm gonna put it this way. If there is a God, may he strike this audience dead! See? Nothing happened. Nothing happened? Everybody's okay? All right, tell you what, I'll raise the stakes a little bit. If there is a God, may he strike me dead. See? Nothing happened, oh, wait, I've got a little cramp in my leg. And my balls hurt. Plus, I'm blind. I'm blind, oh, now I'm okay again, must have been Joe Pesci, huh? God Bless Joe Pesci. Thank you all very much. Joe Bless You!
 
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