Case: c20 vs Atheists

[Lori_7]

If the God that everyone is talking about is the god of the old testament, where in Deuteronomy, for just one instance, giod told Moses to enter into the land of Si'hon and take it for themselves, and ", , ,kill every man woman and littel child", which Moses and his multitude did.


I say, if that OT god ever comes back to this planet, or if he is still here, that we hunt the bastard down and process him through a wood chipper.
Amen.

Geistkiesel.

So then you would be no better than Moses and His multitude right? The difference being that your own judgement is far better than God's. After all, He's only the Creator of you yourself, all of humanity, the entire universe, and the laws with which is operates under...all knowing, and all seeing. Yea, I can definitely see how you would trust your own judgement over His.

 

[Lori_7]

Ah, but they chose to ignore or try to reinterpret passages like that - the ones they disagree with. Did you know the Catholic Church, a few hundred years ago, forbid people to just be able to read the Bible on their own. They didn't want people to see those passages without a priest there to spin-doctor the words for them. Then the advent of cheap mass printing tecniques made that kind of control impossible, but fortunately - human nature being was it is - most Christians don't actually READ the entire Bible anyways, just listen to quotes or read the passages they are told to. And those that do read it, willingly just accept whatever spin is put on it for them.

The nice passages, well you can accept THOSE literally - the passages that depict a dark, bloodthirsty, vain and vengeful god? Those you are supposed to *interpret*. Convienient isn't it?!

And some try to just get out from under the entire Old Testament, saying the NT takes priority (though, you know, they still quote from parts of the OT they LIKE). But that doesn't work either - since in Matt 5:17-19 it says that all the OT laws still apply in the NT.

Fortunately for all of us, the existance of an all-powerful being who is still so insecure, vain and angry - is pretty unlikely. But if it WAS true, then *everybody* Christians & Non-Christians alike are pretty screwed!

You guys think that the OT was bad...you ain't seen nothin' yet. His wrath is gonna burn this motha down and everything that's left in it. Have you read the Book of Revelation? Earthquakes, famine, pestilence, ******** water, stars falling out of the sky, men trying to kill themselves to relieve the torture, but they won't be able to cause they've taken the mark of the beast... That's what this world has to look forward to. And I say...burn baby burn, let the motha fucka burn. Because the sooner this wretched world is gone, the sooner His Kingdom comes...an eternal life without sin...ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, what a relief that will be.

That's weird, I wrote ******** water, and when it posted, it came up replaced with asterix (sp?) Hmmm...lets see if it does it again...

I read where Porfiry said that he hates that word...guess he won't allow it to post. That's understandable...

 

[okinrus]

Ah, but they chose to ignore or try to reinterpret passages like that - the ones they disagree with. Did you know the Catholic Church, a few hundred years ago, forbid people to just be able to read the Bible on their own.

No, the Catholic Church never forbid anyone from reading the Bible on their own, but did forbid catholics from reading heretical and flawed translations of the Bible.

They didn't want people to see those passages without a priest there to spin-doctor the words for them.

Well, from what I said above--that this never happend--I have nothing to say here.

Then the advent of cheap mass printing tecniques made that kind of control impossible, but fortunately - human nature being was it is - most Christians don't actually READ the entire Bible anyways, just listen to quotes or read the passages they are told to. And those that do read it, willingly just accept whatever spin is put on it for them.

You're entire argument assumes that a typical person can read the Bible, and then, by magic, his or her interpretation is correct. But the fact of matter is that some Biblical passages are difficult to interpret, requiring study in foreign languages or culture.

And some try to just get out from under the entire Old Testament, saying the NT takes priority (though, you know, they still quote from parts of the OT they LIKE). But that doesn't work either - since in Matt 5:17-19 it says that all the OT laws still apply in the NT.

Untrue. In Matthew, Jesus only says that not an iota will be taken from the law until all is fulfilled. The new convenant, being the fulfillment of the old law, is consistent with what Jesus said, in addition to what the old testament prophets said.

 

[okinrus]

Ah, but they chose to ignore or try to reinterpret passages like that - the ones they disagree with. Did you know the Catholic Church, a few hundred years ago, forbid people to just be able to read the Bible on their own.

No, the Catholic Church never forbid anyone from reading the Bible on their own, but did forbid catholics from reading heretical and flawed translations of the Bible.

They didn't want people to see those passages without a priest there to spin-doctor the words for them.

Well, from what I said above--that this never happened--I have nothing to say here.

Then the advent of cheap mass printing tecniques made that kind of control impossible, but fortunately - human nature being was it is - most Christians don't actually READ the entire Bible anyways, just listen to quotes or read the passages they are told to. And those that do read it, willingly just accept whatever spin is put on it for them.

You're entire argument assumes that a typical person can read the Bible, and then, by magic, his or her interpretation is correct. But the fact of matter is that some Biblical passages are difficult to interpret, requiring study in foreign languages or culture.

And some try to just get out from under the entire Old Testament, saying the NT takes priority (though, you know, they still quote from parts of the OT they LIKE). But that doesn't work either - since in Matt 5:17-19 it says that all the OT laws still apply in the NT.

Untrue. In Matthew, Jesus only says that not an iota will be taken from the law until all is fulfilled. The new convenant, being the fulfillment of the old law, is consistent with what Jesus said, in addition to what the old testament prophets said.

 

[Gravity]

No, the Catholic Church never forbid anyone from reading the Bible on their own, but did forbid catholics from reading heretical and flawed translations of the Bible.

You are wrong.


http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/banned.htm

 

[Gravity]

That's what this world has to look forward to. And I say...burn baby burn, let the motha fucka burn.

Spoken like a true psycho-brain Lori. Seems no difference between folks like the Taliban and you. Thank goodness only 1/3 of humanity is Christian, and than probably only 1/20th of that 1/3 are anywhere near as psychotic as you clearly are!

 

[okinrus]

http://www.cathinsight.com/apologetics/adventism/bible.htm

 

[Gravity]

We can swap links forever:

"The Catholic Church has a long and storied history of forbidding the translation of the bible into the common tongue. There are many evangelicals that deny this very fact for whatever reason. They actually write books and papers defending the Catholic Church and denying clear historical evidence."

http://www.myfortress.org/Catholic_forbids_bible.html

 

[okinrus]

OK, gravity. Show me the primary sources that tell this long history of forbidden translations, then. The Church supported numerous translations. And, for this reason, there was a variety of translations that existed before the Protestant reformation. But the primarily written language was latin, and so during that time there was no "common" language that the "common" man could read.

But after the abigensian heresy, when thousands lost their lives, the Church, acting reasonably, took some control over who translates a text. Given the significance of the text, the Church has a duty no doubt to preserve text, even to authorize translations. This authorization was not at all wrong, nor was it to prevent translations but to rather prevent fraudalent texts.

 

[Medicine*Woman]

Lori_7: Oh the magical mystical medicine woman who knows all and sees all. You know what? I've had about enough of your egotistical self-righteous bs.
*************
M*W: My observations still stand. I neither base my observations on any magical nor mystical powers, although I could be rich if I did. Obviously, I've hit a nerve here, so I believe I am on the right track in understanding you.
*************
Lori: Your "reading between the lines" is another way of saying "making shit up". "The hidden side of Lori"...lmao...do you hear yourself?????? Do you honestly expect people to take you seriously with crap like that??? I'm as honest as it gets babe...brutally honest. I am the real deal. And anyone who actually knows me will attest to that. Just because you don't agree with or happen to like what I say in no way makes it ok for you to say I'm a liar. I am not a liar. You take that back.
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M*W: I have never called you a "liar," and I have never "made shit up." I have a keen understanding of the human psyche, and I assure you, your's is not the first post where I've "read between the lines." I don't care what other people think of me nor do I care if you take me seriously. I made my observations openly and honestly, and I have not singled you out to "pick" on you. It's NOT what you said, but it's what you DIDN'T say that gave me insight into your message. Lori, I don't believe you to be a liar at all! I never meant to imply that you were lying. I can see that you truly believe the things you do. I don't question your faith in Jesus at all. I believe that you truly find happiness in your faith, but I also see that your faith is not truly fulfilling you as you would claim. Everyone has two sides -- the one on the outside that everybody sees, and the one on the inside that only you know. What happens is that when we aim to put on the outer 'facade' where we find 'protection,' we fail to acknowledge our innermost being. That goes for everybody, not just you.
*************
Lori: You wish it was screaming to come out don't you? Wouldn't you just love that? Well hon, you sure are pushing my buttons right now. :bugeye:
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M*W: No, this was not my intention; however, you may be wearing your buttons in a place where everyone can get to them and push them without effort. The Lori you have presented to us on this forum is exposing her buttons to us and daring that we should push them! I think that you should not be so generous as to dare us to push your buttons -- unless that's what your innermost being wants us to do???
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Lori: The fact is that given the way you guys go after me sometimes out here, you all probably see some of the worst of me. I've told you before that I horrify myself all the time with my own behaviour and sentiments.
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M*W: First, let me say that you may be empathizing with c20's untoward experience on this forum. You are an individual and not in any way associated with c20 -- except through your faith -- and again, that is the side both you and c20 have presented to the forum -- your outer or superficial sides.
*************
Lori: I truly wish that I could be better...so in a way, the fact that you see some bright and cheery "design" makes me happy...kind of surprised in a good way, cause I think that sometimes I can come across as being a bitch...I lack tact...not a diplomat at all...it's that brutal honesty. I desire to be honest without being brutal.
*************
M*W: Lori, I say it as I see it -- kinda like you. Sometimes I blurt out things that my mind has not had time to rationalize. It's like words come out of my mouth before I ever think of what to say in my head. However, I was not trying to say that you needed to be 'better.' I was only presenting the comparison of the inner and outer selves of our being. It's better to be honest, even if the honesty hurts.
*************
Lori: You may wish that this was a facade...that I was a liar... and that Christ really hasn't healed my broken heart, and restored my life, and blessed me so abundantly...given me peace and love and joy.
*************
M*W: Again, I was not calling you a liar nor are you the only person who ever lived to have a facade -- we all have our own facade and our own inner being, and everyone presents to the world his or her own facade.
*************
Lori: That way you can continue to deny Him. But the fact is that I'm telling the truth. Why would I lie? To support my ministry? Oh yea, I don't have one. To support my campaign? Oh yea, I don't have one. To solicit members for my cult? What???? lol...How about because I'm evil and I wish to deceive people for the sheer joy of causing deception and ensuing disappointment? Maybe *shrug*.
*************
M*W: What you believe and you deny has no affect on me or anyone else. Why do you believe I am calling you a liar? You've said this so many times, you've become to believe it! IMHO, I believe this is what you subconsciously fear the most, that's why you've become so caught up in presenting yourself (your outermost self) as 'brutally honest!' Relax!! No one is calling you a liar (unless that is the image you choose to present to the world!)
*************
Lori: Or I could be a compulsive liar... some weird personality trait stemming from a desire for attention? Mmmmm...what kind of attention would that be exactly? lol.
*************
M*W: Well, since you asked... How do you feel about your needs for attention? Everybody needs 'attention' in some form or the other. That's a basic human need, so there's no reason to deny it or get upset about it. Maybe we could talk about this over PMs? I would guess that the only way you have been able to get the attention you need is by professing your faith. (I'm not saying this is 'wrong,' but I'm saying that is probably what YOU do to get attention). Maybe it has worked for you. Outwardly, I would say it has, but what's going on with Lori's innerself? Is Lori's true self fulfilled??? In my honest opinion, I don't believe so.
*************
Lori: MW, face it babe, you don't have a case...you don't even have any evidence. And I don't exactly think it's ok for you to just make shit up about me out of the clear blue sky and post it out here as slander...do you?
*************
M*W: Lori, I'm not looking for a 'case' nor am I looking for any 'evidence' against you! I expressed my opinions from my observations when reading your posts. You wrote them, I didn't! OTOH, I am quite perceptive as well as learned in human behavior, and I posted my comments sincerely.
*************
Lori: I don't make up crap about you just because I wish it to be true and come out here and tell people about it as if it's something I've seen in a crystal ball. You're really discrediting yourself quite a bit.
*************
M*W: Well, let's see, Lori, which one of us has out-libeled the other? In this post alone, you have called me 'magical,' 'mystical,' 'egotistical,' and 'self-rightous,' that I was 'making shit up,' 'writing crap,' and 'pushing your buttons.' You believe that we are 'going after you,' that I've 'slandered you,' that I believe I am 'holier than thou, and that I have 'discredited' myself! If God is with you, how can I we against you? I am detecting here insecurity on your part. Where is this insecurity coming from? From Lori's outer self, the one she happily presents to the world, or from Lori's innermost being, where she longs to be fulfilled?
*************
Lori: That is an outright lie...completely contrary to what I have attested to. I have attested to finding fulfillment only in Jesus Christ...in my relationship with God through rebirth via the Holy Spirit. I have attested to now being happier and healthier and more fulfilled than I have ever been in my life. Just because you don't believe me, does not mean that I am lying...you self-righteous, holier than thou, blankity blank blank...
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M*W: Lori, you seem to be 'protesting too much' (Shakespeare). It appears that you are ready to aim and fire when there's no war going on. This isn't about me being your enemy. It's all about you and the enemy residing within your innermost self.
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Lori: The Holy Spirit is on the inside, and has given me peace, and love, and joy, and understanding. Through Him, I have seen a glimpse of my redemption and my restoration, and yes, I am happy about it.
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M*W: Lori, in all honesty and concern for you, I don't believe you are at peace within your true self. Sure, you believe all these things to be true, but what I (and maybe others) glean from your posts is that you show the peace, love, joy, and understanding on the outside, because that's what you want to present to the world. I'm not calling you a 'liar,' because I know this to be true for you, but I am sorry to say that you are carrying all this happiness on the outside. It is not coming from the inside, and that is where your insecurity and conflict comes in.
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Lori: His grace and forgiveness and love is absolutely amazing to me. He has blessed me beyond my wildest dreams...and rock star's not even here yet.
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M*W: Lori, your faith is strong, I have no doubt, but I urge you to find faith in yourself first and foremost. Our outside personalities only bring us fleeting things, things which don't last forever and are not real. I sincerely hope you do find your rock star, but your innermost soul is going to need more than a rock star to give your psyche the 'attention' it needs.
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Lori: And do you know what? Even if he were to never come my way...even if he were not shown to be my husband in Christ...I would still be so grateful and so happy. That God found a way to use me...to use my life to accomplish His will...to help someone. That would have made it all worth while to me, and I could die one happy and grateful lady...knowing that my life meant something...and only because of Him and His love.
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M*W: My advice to you is don't look for happiness on the outside, because you will never find it there. I can tell that you are a loving, nurturing woman, and that you mean to do good will according to your faith. You don't need to look for anyone else to give you that fulfillment. It's right there, right now! You just have to start believing in yourself.
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Lori: And here's some more of my lovely and cheery "facade"...I can not wait until my rock star gets here and I can shove a big ol' slice of humble pie down your big ol' pie hole. Maybe that'll shut you up for a minute while you chew on it.
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M*W: Lori, I wish you would go back and re-read my previous post, and give it some thought, and not read it in anger. It wasn't meant that way. Read it from your innermost self and not from the facade on Lori's outside where she carries her 'buttons' and dares us to push them! Who knows? You might even learn that there's a Lori inside who can accomplish all the things she desires.
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Lori: Love you Medicine Woman!!!!!
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M*W: Love you, too, Lori!!!!!

 

[Gravity]

OK, okinrus. Fact is I poke with a stick at details within such stuff to get a rise out of you. But ultimately it seems as significant to me as arguing over who colorized a specific character in an old Black and White Disney movie . . . religions come and go, beer and wine remain.

Believe whatever idiocy you want, I strongly believe you have that right as an American . . . so be sure to vote in a way that preserves the same right for any of that 2/3 of humanity that are NOT Christians to believe something different.

 

[Gravity]

Its fun to look at:

Lori: Love you Medicine Woman!!!!!

and compare and contrast it with:

...burn baby burn, let the motha fucka burn. Because the sooner this wretched world is gone, the sooner His Kingdom comes...an eternal life without sin...ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, what a relief that will be.

So, let me extrapolate:

"I love you but I can't wait until you burn along with all the other ''motha fuka's'' because though it will be horrible for you, it will be GOOD for me! I'm sooo loving and unselfish!"

 

[Lori_7]

Its fun to look at:



and compare and contrast it with:



So, let me extrapolate:

Not only are you being a royal jerk, you have extrapolated incorrectly. I didn't say motha fucka's, I said motha fucka, refering to this flawed material world of sin...you know, the same one that you atheists are whining about in the riddle thread? Yea, that one.

I'll have you know dear that if I had MY way, I would take every last one of you with me to live with God in His Kingdom. As a matter of fact Gravity, I would gladly give up the life of my flesh, if it were to ensure that you...just you...were born again, and came to know God like I do, and was saved into His eternal Kingdom. And I would do it for anyone. Wouldn't even have to think about it.

I'm dead f'ing serious.

Love,

Lori

 

[Gravity]

*yawn* - backpeddle all you want sweetie. People only have to read your words to see your true self.

 

[Lori_7]

*yawn* - backpeddle all you want sweetie. People only have to read your words to see your true self.

I'm not backpeddling, I'm being honest...ever heard of it? And yes, they read my words, they get the real me...the me who would be willing to die in the flesh so that you could have life in the spirit...the real me who doesn't want a life of suffering in a flawed body on this miserable earth, but something much better...for us all. After all, why do you think I'm out here telling you people about Jesus? They read your "extrapolation" of my words, in which you entirely misquoted me, and point blank made shit up, and they get what you want to believe about me. Why did you have to misquote me in order to make your point? Why are you so hateful and cynical? Take a look at your own words and see your own true self. Much easier to misjudge me huh?


Believe what you want, I know the truth, and so does God.

 

[c20H25N3o]

I had to post.

M*W: Whilst you are very sweet to tell Lori_7 to believe in herself, you seem to be bulldozing right over the words of her heart which are "I know Jesus".
Now how on Earth can anyone know a dead carpenter in a spiritual sense? Well here is the freaky thing. The one that everyone rejects as being of no consequence ( that Jewish carpenter) is actually alive! Jesus really is the Son of God and some of us know Him personally. We are not trying to claim superiority in this since we have done nothing in and of ourselves but we do testify to the fact that it is true. We are witnesses to the power of the Holy Spirit in our lives.
Now those who live by faith are helped by the Holy Spirit who gives us courage and is faithful to us even when we have no faith. It is something that is witnesssed by the inner being of the witness. It becomes part of the faithful's experiences. It matters not to us whether you disregard our testimony because it does not change the actual testimony itself. We are not murderers or adulterers although we may have been the worst at one time until we cried out to God in faith, so sick of the miserable cycle of sin which made us desire peace and unity. God heard our cries and answered them in only a way that He can. God's plan for us lasts longer than the two minutes after we ask Him something in faith, it may take Him 7 years to answer a single prayer but you will see that it could not have been answered successfully any other way.
I understand that people find the whole Christianity thing extremely condemning. It is hard to believe that there is a God who finds wrongdoing so intolerable that He would wipe out whole nations of human beings just so He does not have to witness the evils that they do, but that is what God is like. God hates evil and wrongdoing among the creatures He has made. It is knowledge of this that causes me to rever Him. In my inner being I am glad God rejoices in purity because I too want to live in a world where people are pure with eachother, no falseness, no pretences etc. If I made a world and creatures to live on it and I gave those creatures everything they needed to live and one half of them did evil whilst the other half blamed me for wiping the evil ones out, I would get pretty angry with them for not just appreciating the free gift of life that they had been given, a life where all could live in purity and love. Jesus came to show that purity and love was the way, the truth and the life. God raised Jesus up again to show us that this was indeed His way, His truth and His life. Jesus also knew that we sucked mostly in God's sight because God would have us love eachother so much more if our hearts were not hard. This is why He promised the Holy Spirit to help us become more like Jesus. I do not mind if you think I am lying but I tell you the truth as my inner being knows it when I say "I know Jesus personally". This will be the same for Lori_7 also. This is our experience.

peace

c20

 

[Gravity]

But, *yawn*, what you STILL just can't get is that some of us have "Known Jesus personally" with JUST AS MUCH certainty as you do know. And then grown/learned our way past that and realized it was an illusion, a ''peak experience'' as can be experienced in a number of religions, meditations, sports, drugs experiences (like LSD for example).

In your arrogance you figure that we could NEVER have been as certain and experienced what you have or else we'd still be in that spot. However, that is simply not true.

 

[c20H25N3o]

But, *yawn*, what you STILL just can't get is that some of us have "Known Jesus personally" with JUST AS MUCH certainty as you do know. And then grown/learned our way past that and realized it was an illusion, a ''peak experience'' as can be experienced in a number of religions, meditations, sports, drugs experiences (like LSD for example).

In your arrogance you figure that we could NEVER have been as certain and experienced what you have or else we'd still be in that spot. However, that is simply not true.

I am not being arrogant here. I am merely expressing faith as I have done since the beginning. So some of you found Jesus and then grew up in your own eyes and did not need a saviour anymore. Thats OK. Each tries to find happiness in their own way. I can understand people giving up what they see as religion in favour of the tangible stuff that they can hang their hat on without fear of being called a looney, such as the stuff of science. I do understand this. However, science has failed to answer many of the questions I have regarding my existence whereas faith continues to answer those questions for me on a daily basis. You are welcome to give up your belief if you find happiness / answers elsewhere or not. No one here has anyone else over a barrel. No one is forcing the issue. But there are those who do not give up their faith. These faithful should not be despised by anyone should they? Surely everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want huh? Somebody elses belief cannot hurt anyone else can it? Sure you will point to examples where somebody has used religion to justify their own wickedness, but this is not true of either Lori_7 or I is it? We are not hurting anyone are we?

peace

c20

 

[Gravity]

We are not hurting anyone are we?

Nope, but neither then are ''we''.

 

[anonymous2]

I am not being arrogant here. I am merely expressing faith as I have done since the beginning. So some of you found Jesus and then grew up in your own eyes and did not need a saviour anymore.

I wouldn't necessarily say that about myself. As I said before, I was generally happier when I just "believed". I kind of miss that "personal Jesus" (or personal God) I used to think I knew. At least emotionally he was comforting to me.

However, science has failed to answer many of the questions I have regarding my existence whereas faith continues to answer those questions for me on a daily basis.

Personally, I don't think science will ever answer it "all". I don't feel I gave up Christianity only in favor of science.

You are welcome to give up your belief if you find happiness / answers elsewhere or not. No one here has anyone else over a barrel. No one is forcing the issue.

Quite true, it's my own choice to stay here. But my desire is to have/see a legitimate discussion, not to see almost constant preaching and demonization of non-Christians, or demonization of Christians by non-Christians for that matter. That is basically worthless to me.

But there are those who do not give up their faith. These faithful should not be despised by anyone should they? Surely everyone is entitled to believe whatever they want huh? Somebody elses belief cannot hurt anyone else can it? Sure you will point to examples where somebody has used religion to justify their own wickedness, but this is not true of either Lori_7 or I is it? We are not hurting anyone are we?

Agreed, and I never asked you to give up your faith, especially when I began remembering what it really means to a Christian to believe in Jesus for salvation. But you misunderstood my post apparently. And I didn't condemn you or Lori_7 for your beliefs. Although you're not exactly saying I was either. Less demonization=good thing.