anonymous2 said:
If this is what I think it is, I have read about it before. What can I say? You don't think TBN has an interest, as a company, to support its viewpoint? Doesn't TBN get money by influencing people to believe in Jesus and send them "love gifts"/donations? So there is a possible MOTIVE for TBN, isn't there? All businesses, and some religions are also businesses in a sense, want to support their own viewpoint, don't they? How do I know the situation wasn't staged or lied about? Why believe this situation over some other Near Death Experiences? I mean, are you just trying to prove to me that the Christian hell is real? Other religions have hells. How do you know it wasn't one of theirs? All sorts of people claim things. Do I accept the one you referred to over any of the others? New Agers? Etc. I think you may consider others Satanic, but that's what you may consider them, based on your own worldview, backed up with the Bible, right? I mean if I tried to prove to you something was real which you personally thought was ridiculous, would you accept it? People lie "all the time". People can also hallucinate and be delusional. This is not to say I KNOW they are, it's to say that it occurs, which I think you agree with. I think I've seen that this Dr whoever exaggerated the claim, if we're thinking about the same thing. But who really knows? I mean, I'm not omniscient. How easy is it to lie about religious claims? What better way to get people into the church than to scare them into it? How do I know that there wasn't some money involved for this story and it was fabricated or partially fabricated to get money? I don't, do I? There can be motives for lying. You're trying to convince me that the Christian hell is real? Is this really what you're getting at? If a Muslim showed you a picture of a miraclous "Allah" writing on various objects, would you then consider being a Muslim? People lie "all the time". It's "scare people into the church". If you can't "scare them into the church", "love them into the church", or vice versa. People can have MOTIVES for such stories. Money. Power. Control. Manipulation.This is such mental manipulation. If you didn't believe in Jesus, I think you would see it as being mental manipulation also.
I'm not quite sure how to respond to this, cause I'm kind of stunned. And please know that I'm not trying to be shitty or anything....but man, did you ever miss the point. Forget about TBN...forget about whether or not it was a true story even. Though I for one believe it to be sincerely...I watched the guy tell it, and I saw his sincerity and his sentiment, and I recognized it, because it is how I feel about Jesus as well. But aside from that...don't you see? Don't you see that what he described as happening in hell is also happening here, on earth, and all around you? It's what is happening with you! And it's what has happened with me. All to a lesser degree, but exactly the same. The beings that run from Him there, are like the beings who run from Him here. Why? For the exact same reasons. I could be that man. Jesus has rescued me from my own personal hell, and from what I would call this hell on earth. He touched me and healed all of my wounds...not so much physical, but emotional. His light shown on me and revealed the truth to me...exposed all of the lies that I had believed for so long...the lies that had hurt me...believing them had hurt me repeatedly and very deeply. And now that I've met Him, He is with me...He stays with me and is my friend, my Counselor, my Father...and He teaches me and talks to me and helps me in every way...He is there for me. Just like the man in the story had asked Him to be for Him, once back here on earth. And all of the people around me who could see this happen to me...witness this amazing change in me....listen to me tell them all about it. What do they do? They turn and run...they don't look...they don't see. They don't want Him...they don't want to know Him. So they deny...deny me perhaps...definitely deny Him. And why? Because they are afraid of Him...because of the lies. They are afraid He'll hurt them. They are afraid of the light...they don't want to see...the truth...about themselves...about this world...about Jesus. They're afraid of what it all will mean to them...for them. They are afraid of condemnation and punishment...you know, the very things that I attest to not ever taking place with Christ. They are afraid of the consequences...afraid He will make their lives hard, boring, sad...afraid of having to turn into a church person. I know this because this was once where I was at...long before I met Him. And man, was I ever WRONG. I was sooooooooooooo wrong about Him.
But who created this supposed law? God right? So whose fault is it that we're imperfect? Is it really mine? I mean, isn't the idea of the "cross of Christ" to correct some problem, which an omniscient God should have known about in the first place? Really, God created some "law" which he knew would be broken by Adam and effect the world leading them to "eternal death"? Why in the world would he create such a "law" in the first place? He should have known we were just imperfect human beings. So this doesn't make a lot of sense to me. Besides, "laws" do not need to be so strict. Really, to me, it's kind of like saying "If I drive 1 mph over the speed limit, I should go to hell". How is it substantially different?
You simply don't create an eternal hell and put humans in it if you're loving, in my opinion. It's not like God saying "Don't drive off this cliff". Guess what, he created hell and it's merely a natural consequence for being alive. Not for doing anything particularly wrong. Just for being a human being. And even if it was for doing something wrong, so what? Who in the world would expect us to be perfect? How sick is that? Also, he has to get his "wrath" out on a supposedly innocent Jesus. To me, that's also sick.
The law was created to support eternal life, in love, peace, and joy...the law is pure and perfect. Transgression from that law is sin, and causes death...pain, sickness, and all sorts of suffering that goes with it. God does not wish for us to live in sin, and ultimately will not have us to do so, for it is His creation. The reason that He has allowed for it now, is so that we have knowledge of it...so that we know the difference and understand it...and so that we can make a choice based upon it. Do we want sin and death or do we want an eternal life without it, and with God? To not ever know sin, would be like the difference between reading about something in a book, and experiencing it in real life. God never wants for you to learn something out of a book, no not even the Bible, but to experience it in your life...that is why you are living this life right now...to learn. He knows that this is the only way to truly know, and to truly understand. This flesh, and all of the pain that goes with it is not eternal, and will pass. So let it go, and look to something bigger and better and forever. This is just a step along the way. And when it's purpose has been fulfilled, then let it burn....ashes to ashes...dust to dust....this is not the end....this is not all that there is.
What you choose to see as punishment is merely cause and effect according to the law. And to witness this in life and experience it is not punishment but learning, and God can make it so worth while. More worth while than you could ever possibly imagine. He can make it so good that you would want to live this life for forever, even with the sin and horrible consequences of it....just because He is there in the midst of it, and He is so good to you through it all. He provides for you, and protects you, and fulfills you, and is so there for you in every way that it gets to the point where you almost don't notice the bad stuff anymore...it just becomes a slight irritation...like a pesky fly buzzing around here and there.
Conviction and judgement is truth revealed...period. It's not condemnation. We condemn ourselves when we seek to avoid the truth. Don't you see? That is the point! It's a choice! If those beings in hell would have had enough balls to stick around and take a look and find out for themselves what Jesus can do, then they would have KNOWN. The same light would have shown on them, and healed them...and then they would have known the truth....and Jesus would have snatched them right up outta there too. But they didn't...they CHOSE not to know...to turn away and to run from Him. IT IS A CHOICE. You are here to learn what you need to learn to be able to make that choice. What choice are you making?
Just like with sin or with anything else in this life...you will never truly understand Jesus until you experience Him for yourself...then and only then will you KNOW.
Really, I'd like to believe that there's a God who loves me personally. I'd like to, but I don't see it.
Then you are not looking in the right place...because He is THERE. He is there for YOU. He loves you more than you could ever fathom. You will see.
Sorry, it just does NOT make sense to me. And I know how the Bible tries to argue against other views. I don't need a "natural man doesn't understand the things of the spirit of God because it's foolishness to him" or whatever. Such a statement could be used to justify any religion, no matter how ridiculous. I'd venture to guess most religions don't like people relying on their own reason. Look at this link and see that Ishtar wanted people to look to her, not humans.
http://www.denverseminary.edu/dj/articles2004/0100/0108.php
Do you think some other religions want people relying on their own reason instead of following the rules of those said religions? I doubt it. This is what I consider mind control.
Rely not on your reason, but on your EXPERIENCE...your KNOWLEDGE. Then and only then will you understand.
And please know that I am not preaching to you. I have lived through every bit of what I am talking about. I have lived it, and so I know.
Just like the beings in hell, it is your fear of condemnation and punishment that keeps you from Him. And in keeping from Him, you condemn and punish yourself, and remain "in hell". But I swear to you upon my life that there is no condemnation or punishment in Christ...only pure and unconditional love. I wish that my words could make you understand, but I know that it is only through your own experience that you will understand. Even so, know that I'm telling you the truth...based upon my own experience.
Love you bunches,
Lori
Even IF they were "evil". Eternity. Think about it. I can't accept that. I don't especially have a problem with a God who punishes. But I have a huge problem with a God who punishes for eternity, or millions of years or whatever which other religions speak about concerning their hells.