Bible Question.

[§outh§tar]

But he still created knowing full well we were to suffer. This is what the bible says. Why would any being do that ? I need to understand why this is not in any way being cruel. Freewill, we did it to ourselves yes, I get it. But he knew it...... why then proceed with the making such beings as ourselves only to watch us suffer?

Because He has given us opportunity to not destroy ourselves.

Here's a scenario that might help:

God creates metals in the earth. Man over the course of time has obviously done both constructive and destructive thing with metal.

Such a "cruel" God did not force man's hand either way.

And once again.....I would no way at all create my son and then teach him that he must abide by my every rule , OR he will suffer and or be tortured , murdered by my own hand..... this is not why I had my son to begin with.
If he didnt abide by my own rules , or ehtics shall we say, I would just say go live your life, I love you. I would not dis-own him like the God of the bible does, he is still my son, I would always love him and give him the love even after death if I had that choice. I would never deny him my love in life or death even if he didnt abide by my rules.

Check back tomororow guys, off to bed, Thanx for your replies.

Well that's why there's a difference between you and God.

What you are saying is your way of treating your son is better than God's way of "treating" humankind. Now that's just plain arrogant.

 

[Lemming3k]

Because He has given us opportunity to not destroy ourselves.

Here's a scenario that might help:

God creates metals in the earth. Man over the course of time has obviously done both constructive and destructive thing with metal.

Such a "cruel" God did not force man's hand either way.

But if god is all knowing, and therefore already knows what we will do before we do it, he already knew we would use metals for constructive and destructive things before we did, otherwise he is not all knowing, i think thats what OliverJ's getting at.

 

[Enigma'07]

Through suffering comes great joy.

 

[TruthSeeker]

But if god is all knowing, and therefore already knows what we will do before we do it, he already knew we would use metals for constructive and destructive things before we did, otherwise he is not all knowing, i think thats what OliverJ's getting at.

He gives us the opportunity to do what we want. He advises us not to do things that will hurt ourselves, but we often don't hear Him. Is it His fault when we do something wrong, that will hurt us? No. It was our choice.

 

[SnakeLord]

Through suffering comes great joy.

You should have been there when my son died. There is no joy in suffering - only pain.

He gives us the opportunity to do what we want.

He didn't give my son the opportunity to do what he wants. You're wrong.

He advises us not to do things that will hurt ourselves, but we often don't hear Him.

How so? Where's this voice coming supposedly coming from?

No. It was our choice

Not for my son it wasn't.

 

[§outh§tar]

Are you actually blaming God for your son's death?


There are similar instances in history where people have acted differently, that's all I'm saying.

 

[Lemming3k]

He gives us the opportunity to do what we want. He advises us not to do things that will hurt ourselves, but we often don't hear Him. Is it His fault when we do something wrong, that will hurt us? No. It was our choice.

The choice wasnt in question, it was the fact he would have known our choice beforehand(he would have to, to be all knowing), at least thats what i think was being brought up, oliver will correct me if im wrong im sure.

 

[Enigma'07]

Snake Lord, I'm truely sorry about your son. But would you agree with me that life is hard? He was spared from that. do you agree that it feels good to help other people?

Ecclesiastes 1:9
...So there is nothing new under the sun.

this is one of my favorite verses because it shows us that we are not alone. There are others that have been through what we've been through, and there are people going through what you went through. I can say from my own experiances that the pain is still there, but others can help make it less.

grace be to you

 

[TruthSeeker]

The choice wasnt in question, it was the fact he would have known our choice beforehand(he would have to, to be all knowing), at least thats what i think was being brought up, oliver will correct me if im wrong im sure.

Yes, He would have known. So what? Do you think He shouldn't have created us, then?

 

[SnakeLord]

Are you actually blaming God for your son's death?

Well I hate to be the one to inform you of this, but you can't have it both ways. When someone recovers from an illness, you'll say it's due to god, but when someone dies you'll try and pass it on to everything other than god. That is hypocritical and extremely naive.

However, the point of my response was in direct relation to Enigma saying that through suffering comes great joy. His statement was complete tripe, and I felt like pointing out that through suffering comes pain - not "great joy".

Just two days ago, an 8 year old boy from my daughters school got run over and killed. If he had have survived the accident, your ilk would be saying "it's an act of god, a miracle etc etc", but he died so nobody even brings god into the equation- but instead will fall back upon medical science to explain it.

You lot just say whatever suits yourselves.

In the biblical sense, there are several reasons as to why my son might have died. God did say he will punish the children of sinning parents upto the 4th generation. So who knows.. maybe I'm a sinner and god killed my son because of me... or perhaps my father sinned which resulted in the death of my son. Well, let's not stop there... maybe my great great grandfather sinned causing the death of my son.

Don't forget this is the very same god that in Deut said parents can kill their children if they misbehave. If he even allows us to kill our own children, I'm sure there's nothing to stop him doing it.

Summary: The reality of the matter is this; I don't blame god - because there isn't one. Either way, you guys really should learn not to shout "god god god" when something goes your way and then blame everything else when it doesn't. It's either down to god, or down to nature. You can't have it both ways.

But would you agree with me that life is hard?

What would that have to do with anything? However, it's odd that you should say that. I am actually very comfortable in life, and have it rather easy.

I find it bizarre that those who claim to have a relationship with a god being are always the first to say "life is hard". But then I suppose the fact that you find life so hard, is the very reason you need to find companions in the clouds.

He was spared from that

So much for choice.

do you agree that it feels good to help other people?

What has that got to do with anything?

but others can help make it less.

Other what? Gods? Angels? Nephilim?

Nope...

People.

Amazing really.. this overwhelmingly loving god of yours, but when you finally come back down to reality.... It's people that help people.

 

[Enigma'07]

Snake Lord has a good point. People do tend to praise God for the good and pass it off in the bad. But I believe this is wrong. God both allows people to live and allows people to die. I believe we ought to praise him no matter the situation, for He is in control, and he will work EVERYTHING for His greater good.

peace be to you

 

[SnakeLord]

for He is in control, and he will work EVERYTHING for His greater good

So... he works solely for his own benefit? What a chump.

 

[Enigma'07]

No. He wouldn't have willed it for Jesus to die for us if that were the case. He wanted that because through Jesus' death was the only way we could fellowship with him.

 

[SnakeLord]

How so? What has jesus death really done? No offence, but you're world minority. There are some 6 billion people on this planet, and christianity represents a meager portion of that amount.

He hasn't achieved anything- and with all due respect but jesus isn't actually dead is he? So what was the purpose, considering nobody really died, but was temporarily killed as a magic show for middle eastern peasants some two millennia ago?

How do you see things a hundred years from now, a thousand years from now? Aside from the "beliefs" of christianity separating into yet another several thousand different opinionated ideals, it shall keep losing people.

While there will always be religious people, the education system is always getting better - so it's only a matter of time before the young and impressionable realise that nature is nature and requires no sky daddy.

 

[TruthSeeker]

SnakeLord,

Sounds like you feel it is unfair that your son died, is that right? And that altough you cared about him, and wanted to help him, you couldn't help him?

In any case, I was talking about free will. I was talking about the fact that we are able to do what we want. Of course there are limits, but we have some choices, and sometimes we choose wrong, and sometimes it is chosen for us...

 

[Enigma'07]

God cannot stand sin. That is why he required sacrifices in the old testament. When people sacrificed, they were to give a unblemished creatue. There was no human that was unblemished, but Jesus was. He had never sinned. He was the only sacrifice that God could accept. When Jesus died He became our sin. the wages of sin is death. Jesus never sinned but he paid the price, that is why we can go to heaven. Jesus died. that is a fact. But God raised him up on the third day. This means that he was no longer dead, not that he never died.

 

[SnakeLord]

Sounds like you feel it is unfair that your son died, is that right?

We've had this discussion before, but 'unfair' - no. What I will do to make this easier, is explain it in the same terms a religious man would: Many state that a non-religious person cannot realise what it's like to know god, unless he gets to know god. In the same context, you couldn't understand what its like to have your son die in front of you, unless you have your son die in front of you.

But needless to say, you can't assign the whole issue one word and think it will work. However, let it be said that "unfair" isn't a word that has ever entered my mind over the past 5 years.

I'm not like that.. I have no reason to expect things to 'go my way'. Yes, it's unfair and unlucky when I lose the lottery, but you cannot assign those words to the death of a child - it is far above and beyond that.

and sometimes it is chosen for us...

Which completely negates your sentence about free will.

 

[SnakeLord]

God cannot stand sin.

I can't stand football, so I never watch it. Further to which, I fail to see how the death of a cow would somehow make it all better. I already know from extensive bible reading that god gets his jollies off on the smell of burning meat - but being god, surely he can make his own burning cow meat? Give me one even reasonable reason as to how the sacrificing of a cow, or a human, or a son of god in any way dissipates the act of sin?

The sin is still there no? There are people committing sins every second of every day, and no matter how many cows or mini-gods are chopped up, that fact remains constant. It isn't made miraculously better by the death of a moo-moo.

When people sacrificed, they were to give a unblemished creatue

Which made things better... how? The really amusing thing is that god demanded "perfect" animals, and these sinners had to ensure that even the cows testicles were unbruised, else the sacrifice would not be accepted. It just seems somewhat stupid that these Israelis were killing off every perfect animal and being left with all the deformed dodgy ones. Either way, and once again, how does the death of a cow forgive a sin?

There was no human that was unblemished, but Jesus was.

That's not true.. what about the time when he smacked the jewish bloke? I will find the passage later for you, but it was something about hitting a taxman or something.

Of course the problem here is the bible is not a day to day account, and misses out some 30 odd years of his life.. so there is nothing to suggest he didn't commit the odd sin here and there. Who knows, maybe he killed a cow or two.

He was the only sacrifice that God could accept.

Why? Surely god can do and accept anything? By your very sentence you are limiting god and his abilities, and creating a bunch of 'needs' for him. It's odd that in the very same thread I've heard it said that "man has choice", and yet also heard here that god does not.

Basically, god has free will and choice, and chose for people to have to sacrifice cows to him whenever they did something that he chose to detest. He also chose to not stand sin, chose to create sin to begin with, because we sure as hell didn't create it within ourselves, without his explicit aid or knowledge, and he chose to kill his son.

There are a gazillion and one ways it could have been dealt with, but you guys make it sound like god has less choice than we do. It's just funny that all these people that claim to 'look up to god', more seemingly look down upon him, and assign him all the power of an earthworm.

When Jesus died He became our sin.

Man it's just an excuse for sinners to feel better at night. I feel it's appropriate to use a quote here:

"When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me."

This pretty much sums it up.. jesus is just there as a scapegoat for wrongdoing. Shit, I sinned - but it's ok because jesus dies for me.. Right, who else should I kill?

that is a fact.

Don't ever use the word 'fact' where it quite simply does not belong. It is rude, ignorant, and just plain wrong.

 

[Enigma'07]

Paul answered that question in the following:

Romans 6:1-2
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increace? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

that I guess applies more to christians because the unsaved have no choice but to sin.

"The really amusing thing is that god demanded "perfect" animals, and these sinners had to ensure that even the cows testicles were unbruised, else the sacrifice would not be accepted"

the really amusing thing is that all cows are females and bulls are males. therefore they didn't have to worry about offering one with bruised testicles, they had none to begin with! God told the Israelits to offer certain animals for certain things. Cows were not animal they had to sacrifice. They used goats and lambs and pigeons.

 

[§outh§tar]

Well I hate to be the one to inform you of this, but you can't have it both ways. When someone recovers from an illness, you'll say it's due to god, but when someone dies you'll try and pass it on to everything other than god. That is hypocritical and extremely naive.

Speak for yourself. Looking to the Bible for answers doesn't seem like trying to "pass it on to everything other than god."

Just two days ago, an 8 year old boy from my daughters school got run over and killed. If he had have survived the accident, your ilk would be saying "it's an act of god, a miracle etc etc", but he died so nobody even brings god into the equation- but instead will fall back upon medical science to explain it.

See above response.

You lot just say whatever suits yourselves.

See above response.

In the biblical sense, there are several reasons as to why my son might have died. God did say he will punish the children of sinning parents upto the 4th generation. So who knows.. maybe I'm a sinner and god killed my son because of me... or perhaps my father sinned which resulted in the death of my son. Well, let's not stop there... maybe my great great grandfather sinned causing the death of my son.

You are purposely taking verses out of context to be bitter towards God. Take a look at this before making such horrid statements:

Ezekiel 18
1 The word of the LORD came to me: 2 "What do you people mean by quoting this proverb about the land of Israel:

" 'The fathers eat sour grapes,
and the children's teeth are set on edge'?

3 "As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD , you will no longer quote this proverb in Israel. 4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son-both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD . Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 "But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

The ENTIRE chapter is devoted to discrediting your theory.

David Worships God after his son dies
2 Samuel 12:15-23, "And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick. David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth. And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them. And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead? But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead. Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat. Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread. And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me."

Don't forget this is the very same god that in Deut said parents can kill their children if they misbehave. If he even allows us to kill our own children, I'm sure there's nothing to stop him doing it.

I would LOVE for you to show me this verse of yours..

Summary: The reality of the matter is this; I don't blame god - because there isn't one. Either way, you guys really should learn not to shout "god god god" when something goes your way and then blame everything else when it doesn't. It's either down to god, or down to nature. You can't have it both ways.

See first statement.

What would that have to do with anything? However, it's odd that you should say that. I am actually very comfortable in life, and have it rather easy.

I find it bizarre that those who claim to have a relationship with a god being are always the first to say "life is hard". But then I suppose the fact that you find life so hard, is the very reason you need to find companions in the clouds.

Psalm 118
1 Give thanks to the LORD , for he is good;
his love endures forever.

2 Let Israel say:
"His love endures forever."
3 Let the house of Aaron say:
"His love endures forever."
4 Let those who fear the LORD say:
"His love endures forever."

5 In my anguish I cried to the LORD ,
and he answered by setting me free.
6 The LORD is with me; I will not be afraid.
What can man do to me?
7 The LORD is with me; he is my helper.
I will look in triumph on my enemies.

8 It is better to take refuge in the LORD
than to trust in man.
9 It is better to take refuge in the LORD
than to trust in princes.

Uhuh.. "we" are always quick to say 'life is hard'. Do you know how many verses of thanks, praise and joy are in the Bible? Obviously not.