Bible Question.
- Thread starter OliverJ
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**************Enigma'07 said:
M*W: But, then, who are you to say what is an "accurate source?" You don't read anything but the "Bible." So your knowledge of truth is quite limited.
*************Enigma'07 said:
M*W: You really don't know for "sure" what Jesus did! You are "assuming." You know what that makes you -- "an ass out of you and me!"
There are many "accurate" sources other than the Bible. If you pursued alternate sources, you would find that there are more sources that refute the Jesus Myth than not.
How can you even suggest that "Jesus was born an ordinary Jew in an ordinary occupation?" If Jesus did, in fact, live as a human on Earth, he was quite a bit more than just "ordinary." In fact, you actually blaspheme him!
Why must you continue to talk about what "you know," when "what you know" is tragically limited?
If you are a Christian, you should be ashamed to even mention the name of "Jesus!" Bow your ass down and pray, mother fucker!
*************§outh§tar said:
South-fucking stupid star- you really don't have to read or listen to what I have to say. You are a lost soul. In the future, please don't read my posts. You are not worthy of them.
*************§outh§tar said:
M*W: South-fucking-stupid-star, I am no hypocrite. A hypocrite will say they believe in Jesus when they don't. I don't believe in Jesus OR Christianity. Therefore, I am NO hypocrite. I tell it as it is. Just because it doesn't fit into YOUR logic, doesn't make it true. You're a lost soul.
Medicine Woman said:
Again you are TOTALLY in denial:
You claim someone's opinion is invalid because all they read is the Bible, but you are the HYPOCRITE who has the prejudice towards all of Christianity.
Again, your own "logic" discredits you.
Allow Christ to wash away your foolishness in His eternally perfect blood.
*************§outh§tar said:
M*W: You are speaking from a Christian point of view. I'm not in DENIAL -- YOU ARE!
The Bible is NOT factual -- there are so many discrepancies! How can you say I'm a hypocrite when I tell it like it is? You are the hypocrite -- you won't accept the truth! Christ, himself, cannot wash away anything except his dirty socks. You are lost. You do not have the intelligent capacity to understand the One Spirit of God. You cannot make the truth prevail, so give it up, mother fucker!
Medicine Woman said:
Careful, there are children about.
Well, gee, then I guess I should say you are speaking from a vicious heretic's point of view. How can I "not have the intelligent capacity to understand the One Spirit of God" if NO man on earth is capable of such an impossible feat?
There are no discrepancies in God's word. You continue to be blinded by your unfortunate bias. Satan is laughing at you because you are ignorantly embracing a lie.
Why call me a "mother fucker"? I don't participate in such lewd acts as your fellow heathen. Repent at once of this indecency please!
**************§outh§tar said:Careful, there are children about.
Well, gee, then I guess I should say you are speaking from a vicious heretic's point of view. How can I "not have the intelligent capacity to understand the One Spirit of God" if NO man on earth is capable of such an impossible feat?
There are no discrepancies in God's word. You continue to be blinded by your unfortunate bias. Satan is laughing at you because you are ignorantly embracing a lie.
Why call me a "mother fucker"? I don't participate in such lewd acts as your fellow heathen. Repent at once of this indecency please!
M*W: You are a "lewd act" because you believe in Jesus! I will never repent! I trusted Christianity, but it was false. It led me astray! There is no truth in Christianity! Jesus didn't die for you! He didn't die for me! Jesus didn't die for any human being! You are so seriously lost it's unreal!
M*W, what exactly do you mean by "I will never repent." You've made plenty of comments to the effect that you simply don't know whether Jesus existed, what Jesus did, and who Jesus was. it shouldn't surprise you in the least that Jesus died for someone.
You say that Christianity led you astray but how? Are you suggesting that Christian morals such as not to be prideful led you astray or something else?
You say that Christianity led you astray but how? Are you suggesting that Christian morals such as not to be prideful led you astray or something else?
Oliver,
Your inquisitive and honestly trying to understand something, that's good! don't worrie about sounding like you moking someone, your good.
I was looking at your site and there are a few flaws with it. I could go though each one but I'd bore you to death reading through all those, so I will refrain. (unless you would like me to, I have no problem doing that)
I think part of the reason that we see God is cruel is because we don't fully understand(and won't be able to 'till we die) God and traits of him such as sovereinty, and righteousness and His love. I think that perhaps sometimes, we expect God to show mercy towards us then we get angry and see Him as mean and cruel when He disciplines us.
Here's something interesting about the story of Sodom and Gomerrah: God told Abraham that He was going to destroy the city for it's wickedness. Abraham then asked of God, "Lord if there are 50 men that follow You, will you spare the city?" God says alright. then Abraham asks God, "Lord, if there are 45 men that follow you, will you spare the city?" God says alright. then Abraham asks of the Lord," God, if there are 40 people that call on your name, will you spare the city?" God replies yes, He would. Then Abraham asks, "God what if there are 30 righteous that live in the city. God replies yes then I will spare it. Again, Abraham asks," Lord what if there are 20 that follow you?" God says yes, I will spare it. Finally, Abraham asks," Lord If there are 10 that call upon your name, will you spare the city. The Lord replies yes, I will spare the city if there are ten righteous living in it. And then we know that the cities were indeed destroyed. Why? Because God knew that no one living there odeyed and followed Him. God could not tolerate the wickedness of the city, so therefore He destroyed it, in an act of justice, not cruelty. How is this justice? If some one kills a friend of yours, would you agree that this person should recieve the death penalty? Probably so. And you must understand, that in God's eyes, murdering someone, stealing, lying, etc. are all the same. they have the same penalty- death. Then we look and see that every day that God allowed these people to live was a day that he showed great mercy to them. So we see that God is not cruel, hi is just. But also, we see that God uses them as an example for us. It makes us stop and realize that every day we live, it is by an act of grace and mercy and LOVE on God's part! It also warns us to gaurd our behavior, for the Lord will only with hold His wrath a short time, and we need to reconize this.
So then I ask you, is it cruel to give a murderer the death sentence, is it cruel to make a thief give back what he stole? No. It is justice. The thief may not see it that way, but others do.So the main thing is, our God is a God of justice, not cruelty.
Does this make sense to you? Feel free to ask questions if it doesn't.
*************okinrus said:
M*W: Maybe "repent" was a misleading word. I will never go back to Christianity is what I was saying. I was NOT saying that I have any reason to repent. There is really no proof that Jesus existed, but I tend to believe he (or someone like him) did. I just don't believe what is written in the NT. I trusted Christianity (catholicism). It was not just part of my life, but it was all of my life. I was in denial when I first learned the truth. I fought it. I fought myself. I tried to deny what I had learned, and I grieved from my "loss." It's all too obvious to me now, and I know there are others who are in that same place of denial about Christianity. I've never been an overly (sinfully) proud person. Believe it or not, in person I have a quiet demeanor! Medicine*Woman, however, is the fierce healer and defender of humanity by her words. That is not to say it's untrue or unreal. Medicine*Woman is the voice who will pierce the dragon's heart and slay Christianity. Before you can slay your dragon, you have to find it, and I did.
*************Adstar said:
M*W: I've explained this so many times on this forum, I don't want to keep repeating it. Everytime someone is new to the forum, I get asked that same questions. You can go back and read my previous posts, and you'll find my answer to your question. Just remember, "all that glitters is not gold."
*************Enigma'07 said:
M*W: It makes no sense at all. I have a question for you, though. Why is it that all the Christians on this forum appear to be illiterate? If it's a problem with ESL, then I would understand. If it's a problem with your typing, then I would advise you to learn to type. It's quite easy. If you are trying to convince others to turn to Christianity, your presentation is seriously lacking. Learn to spell. Learn to type. Learn the truth about your religion. Thus far, you've only presented lies.
I'm citing a reference about Sodom and Gomorrah. It's quite lengthy, and it's not a cut-and-paste. I feel the entirety of this citation is important. There are some biblical authorities who believe Sodom and Gomorrah didn't even exist. This author does.
*************
"SODOM AND GOMORRAH: BOOK OF GENESIS 19. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah plays a pivotal role in the religious view of homosexuality. The name of the city of Sodom, and the name of its people, Sodomites, became synonymous with homosexuals and with taboo sexual practices both homosexual and heterosexual."
"Most countries have sodomy laws relating to: (1) gay sex, (2) anal intercourse between any two people, (3) bestiality, and (4) a number of sexual activities ranging from hand-genital contact with minors to mouth-genital contact between a husband and wife."
"How did a poor small town on the banks of the Dead Sea come to lend it's name to such a range of activities?"
"THE HISTORY. The infamous cities of Sodom and Gomorrah are believed to lie beneath the shallow waters south of al-Lisan, a peninsula near the southern end of the Dead Sea in Israel. Along with the cities of Admah, Zeboiim, and Zoar, Sodom and Gomorrah constituted the five biblical 'cities of the plain.'"
"Supposedly destroyed by 'brimstone and fire' because of their wickedness, Sodom and Gomorrah actually were devastated around 1900 BCE by an earthquake that struck the Great Rift Valley, an extensive rift extending from the Jordan River Valley in Israel to the Zambezi River system in East Africa. The quake occurred at most five hundred years before the biblical tale of Sodom was written down, that is, during the time of Abraham."
"Archeological evidence indicates that the soil in this area was richly fertile during the Middle Bronze Age, about 2000 BCE, and would have supported agriculture -- which is probably what made the land appeal to Lot, the nephew of Hebrew patriarch Abraham, who settled in the region."
"The spectacle of 'brimstone and fire' most likely came from an ignition of petroleum and gases beneath the rift, released by the catastrophic quake. It is not surprising that the upheaval and destruction of the region during the period of the Hebrew patriarchs certainly would be remembered in story."
"THE STORY. Genesis, chapter 19, spins the bizarre saga of the town of Sodom, itself named for Mount Sodom (Har Sedom in Hebrew) at the southwest end of the Dead Sea."
"In Sodom, a mob of men demand sex with two males who have visited the humble home of Lot. The visitors, who are actually angels of the Lord, strike the mob blind and God destroys the town with 'fire and brimstone'."
"According to three prominent biblical figures -- the prophet Ezekiel, the Gospel writer Luke, and Jesus Christ -- the story of Sodom is NOT about sexual perversion and homosexuality. It is about two other issues entirely: "Inhospitality," as Luke tells us (Luke 10:10-13), and 'failure to care for the poor,' as Ezekiel makes clear: 'Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fullness of bread, and abundance of idleness within her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy.'" (Ezek.16:49-50)
"As professor and minister Peter Gomes writes: 'To suggest that Sodom and Gomorrah is about homosexual sex is an analysis of about as much worth as suggesting that the story of Johah and the whale is a treatise on fishing.' We'll shortly get to Christ's own interpretation of the story."
"THE EVIDENCE. There are many disturbing elements to the story that have nothing to do with homosexuality. The two angels enter Lot's house and the rowdy townsmen surround the place demanding: 'Bring them out that we may abuse them.' Lot went out to the men, and shut the door behind him, and said, 'I entreat you, brethren, do not act wickedly. I have two daughters who have not known man. Let me bring them out to you: do as you please with them.'" (Gen.19:5-8)
"A father offers his virgin daughters to a horny pack of heavy breathers -- is this not a sin in itself? A worse sin perhaps than male-on-male rape? If indeed that is what the townsmen were about to do to the angels."
"What did the angry mob want from the visitors?"
"The Douay Bible says the men wanted to 'abuse them.' The King James Version says: 'Bring them out that we may know them.' Linguistically, the evidence is that 'know them' refers to 'know who the two strangers are.' Know their identity."
"WORD ORIGIN. Contrary to popular opinion, the Hebrew verb k'to know' is very rarely used in the sexual sense in the Bible. In fact, in only 10 of its 943 occurrences in the Old Testament does it carry the meaning of 'carnal knowledge.' Furthermore, the passage on Sodom is the only place in the Old Testament where the verb 'to know' has been given a gay sex spin."
"And, too, one cannot overlook Jesus' own interpretation of the story: Christ, speaking some two thousand years after the earthquake that devastated Sodom, claims that the city was destroyed for the sin of inhospitality: 'And whoever does not receive you, or listen to your words -- go forth outside that house or town, and shake off the dust from your feet. Amen I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that town.'" (Matt. 10:14-15); also in Luke 10:11-12)
"God had sent two angels to investigate the general wickedness of the town of Sodom and the angels are rudely, inhospitably received. To appease the rowdy mob, Lot tries to bribe the men by offering his virgin daughters -- and begs of them: 'Only do nothing to these men [the angels], for they have come under the shelter of my roof.'"
"PROSTITUTION AND INCEST -- THE TALE CONTINUES. Lot, his wife, and two daughters flee Sodom before its destruction, but Lot's curious spouse glances back and is 'sodiumized' -- turned into a pillar of sodium chloride, or salt. The destitute father and his virgin daughters visit the city of Zoar, but are unable to afford lodging there, and take up residence in a cave, where the teenage girls soon grow restless."
"The older complains to the younger: 'There is no man in the land to marry us as is the custom everywhere. Let us give our father wine to drink, then lie with him, that we may have offspring by our father.'"
"They seduce their father. The older daughter gives birth to a son, Moab, who becomes the progenitor of the Moabites. The younger daughter produces a son named Ben-ammi, who sires the Ammonites. Thus, these clans, both enemies of the Jews, were allegedly conceived (according to the Jews) through the crime of incest."
"The origins of the words 'Moab' and 'Ben-ammi' are uncertain. 'Moab' may mean 'from [my own] father.' Whereas 'Ben-ammi' may mean 'son of my [on] people.' So linguists conjecture. It makes sense historically: for centuries after the Israelite conquest of Canaan, the Moabites and the Ammonites remained perrennial enemies of the Jews. Thus, the writers of Genesis were only too pleased to pen the folktale of their enemies' scandalous origins through incest."
"No careful reader of the Hebrew text can see this bizarre Sodom and Gomorrah escapade -- involving two angels in the night, a man offering up his virgin daughters, and subsequent conniving daughter-father incest -- as a seminal condemnation of homosexuality. Homosexuality, in fact, is not even directly implid -- while heterosexual prostitution and incest are stated explicitly."
"Yet, today, many Christians overlook Lot's offering of his daughters to the mob, conveniently forget the daughters' seduction of their father, and see the destruction of Sodom as punishment for homosexual conduct."
"Some argue that the girls, believing the world had ended, seduced their father only to continue the species. But the girls had visited Zoar, and knew the city had been spared; furthermore, the wine used to get their father drunk had to have come from somewhere; they'd left Sodom empty-handed."
"EARLY CHRISTIANS REINTERPRET THE STORY. The interpretation of the story of Sodom as the inhospitality of Sodomites to messengers from the Lord persisted in some circles well into the Middle Ages."
"The homosexual spin to the story originated with early Christian moralists who were bent on sexuality purity -- for heterosexuals as well as homosexuals -- and only centuries later emerged as the predominant theme."
"To give this story an even more bizarre twist: according to one Jewish legend, both the men and women of Sodom were sexually licentious, and it was the women, in a worshipful wanton frenzy, who demanded sex with the two male angels at Lot's house -- and got it."
"No one for a long time seriously believed the story of Sodom, written about 1400 BCE, had anything to do with homosexuality; not the ancient Jews; not even Jesus Christ himself. The people who developed that belief were early Christians. In Judaism, it is post-biblical literature that sees a homosexual element in the Sodomites' attitude toward Lot's male guests."
"Not surprisingly, once Christianity became the predominant religion of the Mediterranean region, the homosexual version of the story became prevalent, and 'sodom' and 'sodomite' became synonymous with homosexuals and their behavior."
Sacred Origins of Profound Things: The stories behind the rites and rituals of the world's religions, by Charles Panati, Penguin Books, 1996.