I think alcohol prohibition makes as much sense as drug prohibition, to give an analogy, especially if its selective.
beer woman spared a good old fasioned caning
- Thread starter Michael
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I think alcohol prohibition makes as much sense as drug prohibition, to give an analogy, especially if its selective.
Meh, I just feel sorry for all the people who wanted to go to it, and now can't go.
Well, it's a controversial issue. Kids being told that they can't go to the concert of a band they like just because someone says it's against their religion..so to say.
Well, it's a controversial issue. Kids being told that they can't go to the concert of a band they like just because someone says it's against their religion..so to say.
How could a concert be "banned for Muslims"?
No Muslims at Malaysia Black Eyed Peas concert
huh? I guess so. That was just Wednesday. To me it's unjust to legally bar a Muslim from attending a concert while allowing other citizens to attend. What? Are Muslims little children who need to be led around by the nose? They can decide for themselves what they do or do not want to do within the confines of the law for EVERYONE.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
There was more booze being spilled during prohibition than if they had just given them the stuff:
"But after prohibition was implemented alcohol continued to be consumed. Within a week after it went into effect, small portable stills were on sale throughout the country. [4] California's grape growers increased their area about 700 % during the first five years of the prohibition. Grapes were commonly compressed into dry blocks and sold as "bricks or blocks of Rhine Wine," "blocks of port," and so on. The mayor of New York City even sent instructions on winemaking to his constituents.
Organized smuggling of alcohol from Canada and elsewhere quickly developed. "Rum rows" existed off the coasts of large cities where ships lined up just beyond the three mile (5 km) limit to off-load their cargoes onto speed boats. Murder and hijacking were common in this dangerous but lucrative business.
There was also the notorious and ever-present organized bootlegging. The country's scourge led to massive and widespread corruption of politicians and law enforcement agencies and helped finance powerful crime organizations. In addition to the murders of law enforcement officers there was an ever more common cause of death and disability caused by the bootleggers' illegal products. Many stills used lead coils or lead soldering, which gave off acetate of lead, a dangerous poison. Some bootleggers used recipes that included iodine, creosote, or even embalming fluid.
The widespread corruption of public officials became a national scandal. In addition, it became very difficult to convict those who violated prohibition because public support for the law and its enforcement eroded dramatically. For example, of prohibition-related 7,000 arrests in New York between 1921 and 1923, only 27 resulted in convictions.
Prohibition proved to be counterproductive in that it promoted the heavy and rapid consumption of alcohol in secretive, nonsocially regulated and controlled ways. "People did not take the trouble to go to a speakeasy, present the password, and pay high prices for very poor quality alcohol simply to have a beer. When people went to speakeasies, they went to get drunk."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_during_and_after_prohibition
"But after prohibition was implemented alcohol continued to be consumed. Within a week after it went into effect, small portable stills were on sale throughout the country. [4] California's grape growers increased their area about 700 % during the first five years of the prohibition. Grapes were commonly compressed into dry blocks and sold as "bricks or blocks of Rhine Wine," "blocks of port," and so on. The mayor of New York City even sent instructions on winemaking to his constituents.
Organized smuggling of alcohol from Canada and elsewhere quickly developed. "Rum rows" existed off the coasts of large cities where ships lined up just beyond the three mile (5 km) limit to off-load their cargoes onto speed boats. Murder and hijacking were common in this dangerous but lucrative business.
There was also the notorious and ever-present organized bootlegging. The country's scourge led to massive and widespread corruption of politicians and law enforcement agencies and helped finance powerful crime organizations. In addition to the murders of law enforcement officers there was an ever more common cause of death and disability caused by the bootleggers' illegal products. Many stills used lead coils or lead soldering, which gave off acetate of lead, a dangerous poison. Some bootleggers used recipes that included iodine, creosote, or even embalming fluid.
The widespread corruption of public officials became a national scandal. In addition, it became very difficult to convict those who violated prohibition because public support for the law and its enforcement eroded dramatically. For example, of prohibition-related 7,000 arrests in New York between 1921 and 1923, only 27 resulted in convictions.
Prohibition proved to be counterproductive in that it promoted the heavy and rapid consumption of alcohol in secretive, nonsocially regulated and controlled ways. "People did not take the trouble to go to a speakeasy, present the password, and pay high prices for very poor quality alcohol simply to have a beer. When people went to speakeasies, they went to get drunk."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_during_and_after_prohibition
The involvement of the local fundie religions in the drug laws of the US is an interesting topic.SAM said:
But one of the differences is that alcohol is almost a human cultural universal.
Another is that legal drug prohibition is seldom targeted at the official members of some local church.
Neither does it involve beating people with sticks, in my world.
So the extra weirdness factors here are still on the table.
it really is not that strange......
In the United Kingdom itself, JCP was abolished in 1948.It was removed from the statute book in Canada in 1972, in India in the 1950s, in New Zealand in 1941, and in Australia at various times in the 20th century according to State.
Many countries with an Islamic legal system, such as Iran, northern Nigeria, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Yemen employ judicial whipping or caning for a range of offences. In Indonesia (Aceh province only) it has recently been introduced for the first time.
Other countries that were neither British nor Islamic that have used JCP in the more distant past include China, Germany, Korea, Sweden and Vietnam.In the United States it was last used in 1952 in Delaware. (wiki)
talk to some old folks. perhaps they have a recollection
oh, there were also times when blacks were enslaved, women couldn't vote, anal sex a crime etc
/snicker
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Conclusion
This call for an immediate moratorium on corporal punishment, stoning and the death penalty is demanding on many fronts. We are defining it as a call to consciousness of each individual so that she/he realizes that Islam is being used to degrade and subjugate women and men in certain predominantly Islamic societies, in the center of collusive silence and chaotic judicial opinions on the ground. This realization implies:
*A mobilization of ordinary Muslims throughout the world to call on their governments to place an immediate moratorium on the application of hudûd and for the opening of a vast intra-community debate (critical, reasonable and reasoned) between the ulamâ ’, the intellectuals, the leaders and the general population.
*Taking the ulamâ to account so that they finally dare to report the injustices and instrumentalization of Islam in the field of hudûd and to put out a call, in the name of remaining true to the Islamic texts, of an immediate moratorium according to the example of ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab.
*Promoting education of Muslim populations so that they surpass the mirages of the formalism and appearances. The application of the repressive measures and punishment does not make a society more faithful to the Islamic teachings. It is more so the capacity to promote social justice and the integral protection of every individual, woman or man, poor or rich, that determines a truly authentic fidelity. The norm in Islam is that it is the law that protects ones rights, not the punishment that is inflicted (that can only be a strongly conditioned exception).
*This reformation movement from within, by the Muslims and in the name of the message and reference texts of Islam, should never neglect listening to the surrounding world as well as to the interrogations that Islam raises in non-Muslim minds. Not to bend over to responses from “the other”, from “the West”, but in order to remain, in its mirror, more constructively faithful to oneself. (link)
yeah
listen to well reasoned pov's rather than hysterical and hypocritical rants
This call for an immediate moratorium on corporal punishment, stoning and the death penalty is demanding on many fronts. We are defining it as a call to consciousness of each individual so that she/he realizes that Islam is being used to degrade and subjugate women and men in certain predominantly Islamic societies, in the center of collusive silence and chaotic judicial opinions on the ground. This realization implies:
*A mobilization of ordinary Muslims throughout the world to call on their governments to place an immediate moratorium on the application of hudûd and for the opening of a vast intra-community debate (critical, reasonable and reasoned) between the ulamâ ’, the intellectuals, the leaders and the general population.
*Taking the ulamâ to account so that they finally dare to report the injustices and instrumentalization of Islam in the field of hudûd and to put out a call, in the name of remaining true to the Islamic texts, of an immediate moratorium according to the example of ‘Umar ibn al-Khattab.
*Promoting education of Muslim populations so that they surpass the mirages of the formalism and appearances. The application of the repressive measures and punishment does not make a society more faithful to the Islamic teachings. It is more so the capacity to promote social justice and the integral protection of every individual, woman or man, poor or rich, that determines a truly authentic fidelity. The norm in Islam is that it is the law that protects ones rights, not the punishment that is inflicted (that can only be a strongly conditioned exception).
*This reformation movement from within, by the Muslims and in the name of the message and reference texts of Islam, should never neglect listening to the surrounding world as well as to the interrogations that Islam raises in non-Muslim minds. Not to bend over to responses from “the other”, from “the West”, but in order to remain, in its mirror, more constructively faithful to oneself. (link)
yeah
listen to well reasoned pov's rather than hysterical and hypocritical rants
That's an example, not an analogy.
An analogy to similar instances of prosecution which make little sense. If a woman is almost caned for beer drinking, is it very different from filling the prisons with casual drug users?
It is if the eligibility of the woman in question for the punishment is based on her religion.
Not that anybody's prisons are full of casual drug users.
The UK is also a source of anecdotes of the "different", in my world.gustav said:
Even from the 1940s, speaking of a time (as well as a place) unvisited by me or mine.
We are talking about the police, the official enforcers of the law, arresting and incarcerating and beating with sticks women, for drinking beer - if and only if they are registered Muslims. That's going to look notably strange, to the inhabitants of my region and culture. It's going to make "news of the weird", and why not?
Nothing wrong with listening to well reasoned povs. But the realities of power and enactments - the stuff that the well-reasoned povs are povs of - are also worthy of attention.gustav said:
i must confess i am astounded at this celebration of what appears to be a quite myopic and somewhat provincial outlook on life. i suppose headhunters similarly confound, yes?
two points
first...
sharia is the law of the land. the law specifies all those that come under its purvey. the law forbids alcohol consumption. the law contains provisions for punishing violators
second...
muslims vs infidels.... the double standard
Private conduct may constitute an offense under Article 133, UCMJ,and there is no requirement that the conduct be otherwise criminal.... All that is required is for the offender's conduct to fall below the level of conduct expected of officers and to seriously expose him to public opprobrium. Moreover, military law is replete with examples of conduct protected by the Constitution when engaged in by civilians but which becomes criminal when engaged in by military members.... [T]he fact that conduct may fall within a recognized liberty interest under the Constitution does not mean that the conduct cannot be proscribed under Article 133, UCMJ....(link)
i trust you get the point. two sets of laws for two distinct sets of persons
there are probably other instances. ageism comes to mind
of course all this might be irrelevant to you and yours and the world you all inhabit(??) timbuktu yes?
premises within premises? your point?
OUR west suffer from too many alcoholics and too many drug addicts .
Also due to the sexual permissiveness there are too many cases of HIV and Aids . So why do you want other countries to have our stupid culture that is full of diseases . Yes we have freedoms but too many folks just abuse their freedoms . We all know that smoking, drinking alcohol, drugs and unprotected sexual activities carry high risks of diseases . So if a nation bans them why should we be concerned ?. Every country has the right to have laws according to their culture , religion and way of life . Why the rest of the world do not interfere when a man marries a man and a woman marries a woman in the west ?.......etc.
Our politicians in the west always remind us that our laws are from the Judo-Christian religion and principles while at the same time they follow anything but the bible and the torah .