Bah Bah Black Sheep

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Why? They're Christians nonetheless. While Muslims have tons of mosques in every Western country, Christians, and other minorities are subject to persecution in almost every single Islamic country. Makes you think why we should support such an intolerant community, hm?

And you know, the Vatican had made a few requests for a church in Saudi Arabia, too. As far as I know, Filipinos are mostly Catholic. Still no church there.

S.A.M., quite clearly, you're now acting as if we're intolerant while you're defending the Saudis' cheap attempt at coming of as more tolerant than they actually are.

The Swiss didn't ban Islam, Muslims, nor mosques. They just voted in favour of a minaret ban. Minarets are not a compulsory part of Islam, nor mosques.
I can't come to Islamic countries the way I am. I have to adapt to their culture, customs, etc. Which I fully accept, and I would say that it's a matter of respect. But the problem is, that they come to us, and expect us to respect their customs even though they're in a host country.

You know, if at least I could feel save to practice my religion in an Islamic country, or to wear my clothing style without having to expect a backlash then I'd be okay with their requests, etc., and I'm pretty sure that a lot of others would be, too.
Tolerance is cool, and all. But one-sided tolerance is self-destructive. They don't tolerate our culture in their countries, so why should we?
You want me to respect your culture, then respect mine. So simple, yet it seems something that the Islamic countries can't seem to accept, nor understand. And as far as I'm concerned then we've shown a lot more tolerance for their culture than they have ever shown for ours.
They use our liberalism in their favours, but when they're in their own Islamic countries they have no issues with oppressing other minorities, nor do they have issues with breaching human rights, etc. but suddenly when in the EU, or the USA they care about these evil Western things, these rights and privileges they'd never give us in their countries?

We from the West are supposed to tolerate every Ahmed, and Aisha's cultural beliefs, yet when hoping for a 'give-and-take', or reciprocation then we're considered as intolerant, racists, and what not while the Muslims support one Islamic construction, and organisation after an other throughout the whole West without any further qualms.

Obviously tolerance seems to be a transferable construct, and in this respect, until the day when non-Muslim minorities can freely practice their religions, 'personal laws', publicly carry non-Muslim symbols, and build their religious facilities without fear from groundless repercussions there will be no respect for Muslim culture either in Judeo-Christian societies.
 
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I think most people simply expect others to practise what they preach.

I find it easier to live in Asian and Arab countries because you get what you see, whether you agree or disagree with it. In the west, its often do as I say, not as I do. Which makes understanding and mutual regard a more complex issue
 
PsychoTropicPuppy said:
The Swiss didn't ban Islam, Muslims, nor mosques. They just voted in favour of a minaret ban. Minarets are not a compulsory part of Islam, nor mosques.
I can't come to Islamic countries the way I am. I have to adapt to their culture, customs, etc. Which I fully accept, and I would say that it's a matter of respect. But the problem is, that they come to us, and expect us to respect their customs even though they're in a host country.

You know, if at least I could feel save to practice my religion in an Islamic country, or to wear my clothing style without having to expect a backlash then I'd be okay with their requests, etc., and I'm pretty sure that a lot of others would be, too.
Tolerance is cool, and all. But one-sided tolerance is self-destructive. They don't tolerate our culture in their countries, so why should we?
You want me to respect your culture, then respect mine. So simple, yet it seems something that the Islamic countries can't seem to accept, nor understand. And as far as I'm concerned then we've shown a lot more tolerance for their culture than they have ever shown for ours.
They use our liberalism in their favours, but when they're in their own Islamic countries they have no issues with oppressing other minorities, nor do they have issues with breaching human rights, etc. but suddenly when in the EU, or the USA they care about these evil Western things, these rights and privileges they'd never give us in their countries?

We from the West are supposed to tolerate every Ahmed, and Aisha's cultural beliefs, yet when hoping for a 'give-and-take', or reciprocation then we're considered as intolerant, racists, and what not while the Muslims support one Islamic construction, and organisation after an other throughout the whole West without any further qualms.
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Personally I don't care about what the Saudi's allow or disallow in their country or in their part of the world. I would like to know what business it is of Muslims whether the Swiss allow for their minarets?

I agree that Western liberal and human right ideals are being used as a means to advance their own religion.

Christian Amanpour had an interview with a moderate muslim and the topic was the 'Islamification of Europe'. What was interesting is when she asked if there were any validity to the notion that Islam posed a threat to secular society he said no. He then said that Muslims were bringing back religion to a part of the world that was 'devoid of religious values'. In other words he thought Europeans were benefitting from Muslims because they were spreading Islam. Now it wasn't followed up but I thought how ironic his answer to the question since he unwittingly was admitting to what many already fear, the spreading of their cult religion and lifestyle values.

I find it outrageous that Muslims believe they have a right to protest what goes on in the free press of another country, attempting to censor journalists and artists in other countries. I find it outrageous that muslims think they have a right to dictate to the Swiss what they choose to tolerate in their society.

Like I said I don't particularly care what they do in their own countries, I just wish they would stop hassling the west over bullshit like veils, minarets and that prophet of theirs. They now constantly wave their religion in everyone's face. I'm sick of it.
 
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I would like to know what business it is of Muslims whether the Swiss allow for their minarets?
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Uh are we talking about Swiss Muslims? Or are you into the reinrassig philosophy now? We can argue if jus sanguinis preempts jus cogens if you like.
 
S.A.M. said:
Uh are we talking about Swiss Muslims? Or are you into the reinrassig philosophy now? We can argue if jus sanguinis preempts jus cogens if you like.
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Swiss muslims? How do you have swiss muslims? Converts perhaps? You know very well what the criteria is for citizenship is in Switzerland.

We can argue the fact that these are immigrants who are asking to build their mosques on Swiss soil. But no matter as the Swiss have said NO!

I am pleased with the results.
 
Of course they do. They wave their religion in your face in Vietnam, is it? Or New York? Now you have your own version of it to wave back. You can tell them all about assimilating in foreign countries as you jabber in Vietnamese with your Asian boyfriend, wearing your sarong.
 
S.A.M. said:
Of course they do. They wave their religion in your face in Vietnam, is it? Or New York? Now you have your own version of it to wave back. You can tell them all about assimilating in foreign countries as you jabber in Vietnamese with your Asian boyfriend, wearing your sarong.
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Vietnam? Since when is religion an issue in Vietnam?:crazy:

I don't care what muslims do in their part of the world, I do care what they do in mine.

Asian boyfriend? :D Dude you must lay off the drugs!
 
What a topsy turvy person you are. Will you be going to your part of the world to support your soldiers anytime soon?

While they occupy Muslim countries?
 
S.A.M. said:
What a topsy turvy person you are. Will you be going to your part of the world to support your soldiers anytime soon?

While they occupy Muslim countries?
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You call it an occupation but I don't.

When I do Sam I'll be sure to send you a token rock or two. Or maybe you would prefer a discarded mortar shell. They use them for drinks here in PP, they call it the 'mortar round'
 
No you wouldn't. Is that your part of the world or the Muslim part of the world?

Can Muslims choose who they want to tolerate there?
 
S.A.M. said:
No you wouldn't. Is that your part of the world or the Muslim part of the world?

Can Muslims choose who they want to tolerate there?
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Sure I would Sam. I mean it may be difficult getting it through customs but we could always try:shrug:

PP isn't part of the muslim world but I've heard that Afghans also have interesting uses for their mortar shells they just don't drink vodka or at least not seen drinking vodka.

Muslims seem not to tolerate anything.
 
SAM said:
"Muslims seem not to tolerate anything."

That explains why they are under occupation so often.
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Hmmmm.

Might be worth following up, as a question.

Although Lucy is of course unmoored in awareness and uncomplicated by comprehension, the bringing of "religious values" to a Switzerland "devoid" of them, by Islamic immigrants, is going to be interesting to watch play out.

The rich have the same problem everywhere - they don't want to do their own laundry, or clean their own houses.
 
iceaura said:
Hmmmm.

Might be worth following up, as a question.

Although Lucy is of course unmoored in awareness and uncomplicated by comprehension, the bringing of "religious values" to a Switzerland "devoid" of them, by Islamic immigrants, is going to be interesting to watch play out.

The rich have the same problem everywhere - they don't want to do their own laundry, or clean their own houses.
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Indeed. Perhaps the Chinese will get lucky.
 
I agree with you, Lucysnow. I don't understand it either. It's not like it was a totalitarian decision to ban minarets. It was a citizens' initiative, and they voted in favour of the ban. 59% voted for the ban. Quite clearly, it was a democratic vote, and the Swiss were given the choice.
I don't understand it either how S.A.M. makes hints on how we're not practicing what we preach when that was a typical approach of the Swiss. A democratic approach. A perfect example of how we DO practice what we preach.

The Minaret initative is exactly what we need. It's what we really need to discuss already..questions about how much Islam, and what kind of Islam we want in our country. Even if it irritates the Muslim world, and destroys our 'image' as a lot of people already claim. It's hard to see where the line is drawn between Islamism, and Islam. It becomes always apparent when the Islamic community is denied something and the 'most' moderate Muslim adherents mention threats such as "You shouldn't be surprised if radicalism will expand even further, and a bomb explodes in the Zurich rail station." They never fall short of threatening, instigating fear. The Danish cartoonist events..are a perfect example of how the line between radicalism and moderateness in Islam is a movable concept. One fatwa after an other against Western journalists, authors, etc. while people like Osama bin Laden are exempted of these death threats. It comes of as if Islamic extremism is welcome in Islamic societies. Either that, or they're too pussy to distance themselves from these terrorist organisations.
Basically, the touchiness of minorities has become the standard gauge after which we adapt our position in Europe. Because Muslims feel irritated at the thought of having to face criticism, or disagreement we should just avoid discussing anything that might possibly irritate the Muslim community. It's even reached the point where Muslims have become the critical point after which our history education is adapted to, e.g. history teachers avoid the Holocaust which is an important part of 2nd World War just because the Muslim students feel offended. We can't even feel offended when seeing Muslim women wearing burqas in our society. No, that would be intolerant, and bigoted. But for us, seeing someone in a burqa doesn't just show how proud, and confident this woman is about her religion, but it also screams of "Hey look, I'm chaste, and prudish. I'm not a whore. And you're not worthy enough to see my face." Of course this infers that everyone who's clothed otherwise is a whore, and that's how I've been regularly hearing Muslims referring to Western women. You know, it's probably just me, but whenever I heard the word integration, then I automatically presumed that the immigrants will adapt themselves to our society, and respect our culture, laws, etc., but instead of that it turns out that our society has to adapt itself to the minority because otherwise we'd be called racists, Nazis, extreme right-wingers, etc. And that's exactly how it shouldn't be.

And, no, the majority of Muslims in Switzerland are made up of asylum seekers, and immigrants.
 
Yeah right, because the majority always votes on the religious freedom of minorities. Which is okay in Switzerland but apparently doubtful elsewhere. I find it humorous that y'all are so excited about a minaret while bombing entire countries with no accountability.
 
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