Bah Bah Black Sheep

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Sam I much prefer this exchange from Shakespeare's Titus Andronicus when the Goth queen bears a child from her black lover Aaron:

Nurse: A joyless, dismal, black, and sorrowful issue:
Here is the babe, as loathsome as a toad
Amongst the fairest breeders of our clime:
The empress sends it thee, thy stamp, thy seal,
And bids thee christen it with thy dagger's point.

AARON
'Zounds, ye whore! is black so base a hue?
Sweet blowse, you are a beauteous blossom, sure.

Black AARON's abridged response to the aryan Demetrius on 'color':

What, what, ye sanguine, shallow-hearted boys!
Ye white-limed walls! ye alehouse painted signs!
Coal-black is better than another hue,
In that it scorns to bear another hue;
For all the water in the ocean
Can never turn the swan's black legs to white,
Although she lave them hourly in the flood.
 
Lucysnow said:
Here is the babe, as loathsome as a toad
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I like that line.
Midwives, please do not copy as a method of presenting an infant to its parents.

People doubt Shakespeare as the author.
Possibly had a hand in it, but some of the lines are garbage.
Unless you accept the satire theory...............
 
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Captain Kremmen said:
I like that line.
The rest makes me doubt Shakespeare as the author.
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Oh its shakespeare alright. Act 4 scene 2.

Here is the excerpt from the scene unabridged:

Nurse
A joyless, dismal, black, and sorrowful issue:
Here is the babe, as loathsome as a toad
Amongst the fairest breeders of our clime:
The empress sends it thee, thy stamp, thy seal,
And bids thee christen it with thy dagger's point.

AARON
'Zounds, ye whore! is black so base a hue?
Sweet blowse, you are a beauteous blossom, sure.

DEMETRIUS
Villain, what hast thou done?

AARON
That which thou canst not undo.

CHIRON
Thou hast undone our mother.

AARON
Villain, I have done thy mother.

DEMETRIUS
And therein, hellish dog, thou hast undone.
Woe to her chance, and damn'd her loathed choice!
Accursed the offspring of so foul a fiend!

CHIRON
It shall not live.

AARON
It shall not die.

Nurse
Aaron, it must; the mother wills it so.

AARON
What, must it, nurse? then let no man but I
Do execution on my flesh and blood.

DEMETRIUS
I'll broach the tadpole on my rapier's point:

Nurse, give it me; my sword shall soon dispatch it.

AARON
Sooner this sword shall plough thy bowels up.
Takes the Child from the Nurse, and draws

Stay, murderous villains! will you kill your brother?
Now, by the burning tapers of the sky,
That shone so brightly when this boy was got,
He dies upon my scimitar's sharp point
That touches this my first-born son and heir!
I tell you, younglings, not Enceladus,
With all his threatening band of Typhon's brood,
Nor great Alcides, nor the god of war,
Shall seize this prey out of his father's hands.
What, what, ye sanguine, shallow-hearted boys!
Ye white-limed walls! ye alehouse painted signs!
Coal-black is better than another hue,
In that it scorns to bear another hue;
For all the water in the ocean
Can never turn the swan's black legs to white,
Although she lave them hourly in the flood.
Tell the empress from me, I am of age
To keep mine own, excuse it how she can.

DEMETRIUS
Wilt thou betray thy noble mistress thus?

AARON
My mistress is my mistress; this myself,
The vigour and the picture of my youth:
This before all the world do I prefer;
This maugre all the world will I keep safe,
Or some of you shall smoke for it in Rome.

DEMETRIUS
By this our mother is forever shamed.

CHIRON
Rome will despise her for this foul escape.

Nurse
The emperor, in his rage, will doom her death.

CHIRON
I blush to think upon this ignomy.

AARON
Why, there's the privilege your beauty bears:
Fie, treacherous hue, that will betray with blushing
The close enacts and counsels of the heart!
Here's a young lad framed of another leer:
Look, how the black slave smiles upon the father,
As who should say 'Old lad, I am thine own.'
He is your brother, lords, sensibly fed
Of that self-blood that first gave life to you,
And from that womb where you imprison'd were
He is enfranchised and come to light:
Nay, he is your brother by the surer side,
Although my seal be stamped in his face.
 
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I won't pursue the argument.
I've never read the play, or studied it.
Some of what you quoted looked like bad Marlowe, who missed the bar far more often than Shakespeare.
Some of it is awful.
It's well off topic thankfully, so I won't comment any more, but I promise to read it.
 
Captain Kremmen said:
I won't pursue the argument.
I've never read the play.
Some of what you quoted looked like bad Marlowe, who missed the bar far more often than Shakespeare.
Some of it is awful.
It's well off topic thankfully, so I won't comment any more, but I promise to read it.
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Its not his most famous play but it is his unless Shakespeare's complete works be a total fabrication.
 
Captain Kremmen said:
The missile poster is intended to evoke fear and reinforce stereotypes.
It doesn't matter to the propagandist that most Muslims do not support terrorism and just want to live peacefully in non Muslim countries.
The converse is more useful to a racist agenda.
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What does it have to do specifically with Muslims? :shrug:
 
I'm not sure either. I'm just surprised that people thought black sheep was a reference to black (or brown) people. :eek:
 
More like how would that poster indicate a support of terrorism amongst Muslims? Unless you consider women wearing a burqa, and minarets as a symbol of terrorism? Well well...how surprising.

PS: I think he was referring to the following:
minarae.jpg
 
WillNever said:
I'm not sure either. I'm just surprised that people thought black sheep was a reference to black (or brown) people. :eek:
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As someone already pointed out, the phrase simply comes from dyeing wool. We often hear of the "black sheep of the family", and it has nothing to do with skin colour. But lets not miss an opportunity to create something out of nothing eh?
 
PsychoTropicPuppy said:
More like how would that poster indicate a support of terrorism amongst Muslims? Unless you consider women wearing a burqa, and minarets as a symbol of terrorism? Well well...how surprising.

PS: I think he was referring to the following:
minarae.jpg
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Quite possibly, but that's different to the OP. ;)
 
PsychoTropicPuppy said:
More like how would that poster indicate a support of terrorism amongst Muslims? Unless you consider women wearing a burqa, and minarets as a symbol of terrorism? Well well...how surprising.

PS: I think he was referring to the following:
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That poster is in regards to the demand for more minstrels in Switzerland, there are places of prayer and I believe a few minstrels (not sure) but there is a demand for them and their is a campaign by the swiss to stop it. All requests for minstrels have been denied and the reason is they fair the 'islamification' of Switzerland. In some districts the poster was banned as it was seen as inflammatory.
 
Swiss Majority Oppose Banning of Minarets

Apparently the Swiss themselves have no problem with minarets

A referendum proposing that the construction of minarets be banned in Switzerland might not be successful, according to a poll by the GfS Research Institute released by the Swiss Broadcasting Corporation. 34 per cent of respondents would vote in favour of this proposal, while 53 per cent would vote against it in next month’s ballot.

Since 1959, Switzerland has formed its government under a power-sharing agreement known as the "Magic Formula." The country’s four major political parties are represented in the seven-post cabinet. Presidents are elected by the Assembly for one-year terms from the pool of cabinet members. The president remains a member of the cabinet and does not hold any extra powers

Within the frame of Switzerland’s direct-democracy system, a group of citizens or leaders of the eight cantons together can call a referendum to challenge a law approved by the federal legislature. The vote is decided with a simple majority.

Last year, the ultra-nationalist Swiss People’s Party (SVP) gathered more than 113,000 signatures to force a nationwide referendum on banning the construction of minarets in Swiss mosques. The minaret—a tower from which the call to prayer is sounded—is a distinctive architectural feature of Islamic mosques. At this time, only the mosques in Geneva, Wangen near Olten, Winterthur and Zurich have minarets.

The government and most members of the current cabinet oppose the Minaret Initiative, but cannot impede the plebiscite from happening.

On Oct. 26, lawmaker Peter Spuhler and defence minister Ueli Maurer—two SVP members—spoke against the Minaret Initiative that their own party pushed for, saying that, if approved, it could carry negative consequences for the country’s foreign relations. Maurer said that a minaret ban would "achieve nothing."

The referendum is scheduled for Nov. 29.​

Its interesting to think that if this ban passes, Switzerland will join Saudi Arabia and Afghanistan, the only two other countries that forbid the construction of church towers due to similar fears.
 
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PsychoTropicPuppy said:
Unless you consider women wearing a burqa, and minarets as a symbol of terrorism?
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In the USA, minarets are simply quaint architecture. But we have no tradition of honest people concealing their faces the way European knights did in their armored helmets. Here only robbers wear masks. (The Lone Ranger, Zorro, Batman and Robin are fiction.)

People who cover themselves from head to toe are ninjas and to us the burqa is a symbol of deceit. It is also a symbol of what we, with our women's lib, regard as the most despicable faction of fundamentalist, male-chauvinist Islam: the same faction that breeds anti-Western terrorists.

So yes, in America you could say that the burqa is a symbol of terrorism and it wouldn't be much of a stretch. After all, how long will it be before terrorists start using them to masquerade as women and conceal their explosives--if they aren't already doing that!

If I saw someone in a ninja costume board my subway car I'd jump up and run out and I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one.
 
@FraggleRocker
That's understandable, FraggleRocker..or at least I think it might be. My mum told me about her childhood experience when she went on a trip to the near Orient with her mum, and her first impression after seeing those covered faces was an uneasy feeling, almost fear. You just see the eyes....no smile, no real facial expression available for you to judge the person. I can imagine that if you see such a scenario for the first time in your life that you'd find it creepy, and unpleasant. But anyway..that's not the topic.

@Lucysnow
Every criticism, or disapproval of something being implemented by someone could be considered as inflammatory, especially if it's against the poor oppressed Muslims in the EU who come to the EU for a better life, but bring their Sharia sh*t with them. How long will it take before Switzerland will face a referendum concerning the implementation of Sharia? Parallel legal systems are so sexily paradox.
There is no need for minarets. Imagine the ruckus. People are already being bitchy about the church bells ringing too often. How bitchy will they get once they get to hear five times per day some loud speaker calling "Hasten to prayer" in all directions. At the end they'll only serve as a decoration, and marking point in the scenery. Therefore there's no need for them.

Either way, Switzerland is already crumbling apart thanks to the "wanna please everybody" politicians such as Calmy-Rey, and Couchepin. Well well..come what must come.
 
PsychoTropicPuppy said:
@Lucysnow
Every criticism, or disapproval of something being implemented by someone could be considered as inflammatory, especially if it's against the poor oppressed Muslims in the EU who come to the EU for a better life, but bring their Sharia sh*t with them. How long will it take before Switzerland will face a referendum concerning the implementation of Sharia? Parallel legal systems are so sexily paradox.
There is no need for minarets. Imagine the ruckus. People are already being bitchy about the church bells ringing too often. How bitchy will they get once they get to hear five times per day some loud speaker calling "Hasten to prayer" in all directions. At the end they'll only serve as a decoration, and marking point in the scenery. Therefore there's no need for them.

Either way, Switzerland is already crumbling apart thanks to the "wanna please everybody" politicians such as Calmy-Rey, and Couchepin. Well well..come what must come.
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I couldn't agree with you more. I don't think Switzerland needs minarets nor do they need to pander to any minority group and they will regret it if they do. Some muslims in Europe seem to use western liberalism as a means to force their own agenda on the rest of society. In the long run it will not be in their best interests as there is growing resentment and backlash towards this group and that makes it difficult for the rest who are trying to integrate themselves into the society. They don't need churches in Saudi Arabia and we don't need minarets in Europe.
 
Lucysnow said:
I couldn't agree with you more. I don't think Switzerland needs minarets nor do they need to pander to any minority group and they will regret it if they do. Some muslims in Europe seem to use western liberalism as a means to force their own agenda on the rest of society. In the long run it will not be in their best interests as there is growing resentment and backlash towards this group and that makes it difficult for the rest who are trying to integrate themselves into the society. They don't need churches in Saudi Arabia and we don't need minarets in Europe.
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Agreed. Fair is fair.
 
PsychoTropicPuppy said:
Because their wool was not dyeable

A black sheep stands out in a herd with white sheep. And since people used to associate the colour black with something negative it would mean something along the lines of: stands out in a negative sense.
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(Q) said:
Well done. The black wool was less desirable than white wool for that very reason.
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Poor marketing more likely. The benefits of black wool, and its suitability for making little black wool dresses was not explained properly.
 
Going back to basics, I fail to see how the poster in the OP is racist. Surely you know what the phrase 'black sheep' means?
 
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