Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Atheism is a belief.
- Thread starter Tht1Gy!
- Start date
You are talking nonsense. You may equate atheism with materialism but you are qrong. Many of the "green" people I know are atheists. If you must point a finger, do so at the religious nuts who believe god created the world for our convenience. See Genesis !
You are only entitled to say that lots of people are materialists, some of whom happen to be atheists; that is not worth saying
Interestingly;
"Mammon is a term, derived from the Christian Bible, used to describe material wealth or greed, most often personified as a deity." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mammon)
So those that value wealth, from a Christian perspective, are theists!
Nice one !
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
well, maybe I didn't understand the context.
I thought you were saying that if these are the answers you would again be 'atheist'. If not, then I misunderstood. Sorry.
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Yes, if these are the answers to pick from..
The existence of God is (unlikely in the extreme)^infinity.
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
The above is a belief. (it is a belief about liklihood. it even has implicit beliefs. for example you believe you can calculate the liklihood of their being a God.) And I am not saying your belief is wrong or you can't back it up or anything other than that you have a belief. You have a belief and no doubt you have your reasons for that belief.
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Where did I say anything about calculating it ?
Fine if you want to call it belief then everything is a belief, and I mean everything.
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
OK. figured out, decided. You think you can determine the liklihood. If you are asserting that it is extremely unlikely there is a God (belief 1) it seems implicit to me that you believe you can figure this out (implicit belief A).
Enmos, I am not doing anything strange here. You made an assertion which is a statement of belief.
And no, not everything becomes a belief.
For example.
No belief.
If you do not know whether or not X exists, that is a different story.
Otherwise, there is no in-between.
Either you believe X exists or you believe X does not exist.
Belief is not an active action like walking or doing flips.
There is no such thing as the absence of walking.
The absence of belief ultimately does not exist. It is impossible to have an absence of belief. If you don't know whether or not X exists that is one thing. You simply don't bloody know. Other wise, you either believe that X exists or:
You believe that X does not exist = You do not believe that X exists = You lack the belief that X exists = You have the absence of belief that X exists.
1. Don't know.
2. Belief that X exists.
3. Belief X does not exist.
Take your pick. #3 is the only correct way to define Atheism. Those who don't know for sure are not atheists. Those who never heard of concept of God are not atheists.
Otherwise, there is no in-between.
Either you believe X exists or you believe X does not exist.
Belief is not an active action like walking or doing flips.
There is no such thing as the absence of walking.
The absence of belief ultimately does not exist. It is impossible to have an absence of belief. If you don't know whether or not X exists that is one thing. You simply don't bloody know. Other wise, you either believe that X exists or:
You believe that X does not exist = You do not believe that X exists = You lack the belief that X exists = You have the absence of belief that X exists.
1. Don't know.
2. Belief that X exists.
3. Belief X does not exist.
Take your pick. #3 is the only correct way to define Atheism. Those who don't know for sure are not atheists. Those who never heard of concept of God are not atheists.
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
Of course. If you are certain something is true, you believe it is true. You cannot not believe something is true if you are certain it is true. (Unless you are lying. One can, of course, make a statement of certainty but believe something else. This would be a lie. But I assume this is not the issue here.)
JesseLeigh
Registered Member
Afternoon Enmos!
You asked me what I'd call you. *Why* must we label everyone and everything? :shrug:
I doubt the occasion would arise when I'd require to call you, but if I did, I would call you a human being - one of humankind like the rest of us.
You may turn out to be many things, a seeker, a comedian, a diplomat, aristocrat, or jerk - I don't know. All of these attributes are merely *segments* of a personality. Nobody is simply one thing or another. Life's a trifle more complex than that.
Peace be upon you - Jesse.
You asked me what I'd call you. *Why* must we label everyone and everything? :shrug:
I doubt the occasion would arise when I'd require to call you, but if I did, I would call you a human being - one of humankind like the rest of us.
You may turn out to be many things, a seeker, a comedian, a diplomat, aristocrat, or jerk - I don't know. All of these attributes are merely *segments* of a personality. Nobody is simply one thing or another. Life's a trifle more complex than that.
Peace be upon you - Jesse.
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
So if I just saw a cat walk by, it is just my belief that that's true.
Ok. I can live with that definition of belief.
Enmos
Valued Senior Member
Afternoon Enmos!
You asked me what I'd call you. *Why* must we label everyone and everything? :shrug:
I doubt the occasion would arise when I'd require to call you, but if I did, I would call you a human being - one of humankind like the rest of us.
You may turn out to be many things, a seeker, a comedian, a diplomat, aristocrat, or jerk - I don't know. All of these attributes are merely *segments* of a personality. Nobody is simply one thing or another. Life's a trifle more complex than that.
Peace be upon you - Jesse.
Thank you Jesse
Materialism: Philosophy - the doctrine that nothing exists except matter and its movements and modifications.
See the dictionary.
Doesn't rule out "Greens".
There is a difference between being 'a materialist' and being 'materialistic'.
Simon Anders
Valued Senior Member
I'm not making a case that it would just be your belief. That seems like another discussion. I am saying that any assertion we make that we think is true is a belief. It may be other things also. But in the context of the thread 'Atheism is a belief' I was focusing on whether or not you, as one kind of atheist, had an atheism that was a belief. I think there are atheists where their atheism is not a belief. They probably don't think about the issue much. Maybe someone asks them if they believe in God and they shrug and say 'nope'. (as one possible example, where I am using the blaseness of their physical and verbal response to convey something about their stance or really lack of it.)
JesseLeigh
Registered Member
Belief....
Evening!
I don't know why this discussion is centered on belief. Belief, in and of itself, is of little import. The Bible (obviously the Christian perspective) tells us, "So you think you do well to believe do you? Foolish man! Even Satan believes - and shudders!"
So, from a Christian perspective, merely believing is worthless. So is giving away all your possession, or living an exemplary life, or saying reams of countless prayers. It's not even beneficial to you to become a martyr.
There's only ONE thing that matters in this life and that's LOVE. Check out the following.
1 Corinthians 13 (New American Standard Bible)
1 Corinthians 13
The Excellence of Love
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes (Christ), the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13 But for now three things remain, faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love.
Love is everything - 'LOVE CONQUERS ALL.' Not merely romantic or emotional love, but love as it's defined above. To LIVE IN LOVE is the goal of every Christian and decent human being.
If we're going to believe in anything, let it be love!
Perhaps it's clearer, after reading the above, why the Bible tells us, 'GOD *IS* LOVE.'
Your thoughts? - Jesse.
Evening!
I don't know why this discussion is centered on belief. Belief, in and of itself, is of little import. The Bible (obviously the Christian perspective) tells us, "So you think you do well to believe do you? Foolish man! Even Satan believes - and shudders!"
So, from a Christian perspective, merely believing is worthless. So is giving away all your possession, or living an exemplary life, or saying reams of countless prayers. It's not even beneficial to you to become a martyr.
There's only ONE thing that matters in this life and that's LOVE. Check out the following.
1 Corinthians 13 (New American Standard Bible)
1 Corinthians 13
The Excellence of Love
1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.
2 If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind and is not jealous; love does not brag and is not arrogant,
5 does not act unbecomingly; it does not seek its own, is not provoked, does not take into account a wrong suffered,
6 does not rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes (Christ), the partial will be done away.
11 When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
13 But for now three things remain, faith, hope, and love; but the greatest of these is love.
Love is everything - 'LOVE CONQUERS ALL.' Not merely romantic or emotional love, but love as it's defined above. To LIVE IN LOVE is the goal of every Christian and decent human being.
If we're going to believe in anything, let it be love!
Perhaps it's clearer, after reading the above, why the Bible tells us, 'GOD *IS* LOVE.'
Your thoughts? - Jesse.
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