At what point, from conception does a ''phetus'' become a human being?

As far as that is concerned which humans can provide, defend or reestablish: no, we have no rights at all.

We cannot bring someone back to life after they were killed - even though we say everyone has the right to live.
If everyone really had the right to live and the Law and Society were there to ensure this right, then it would be possible to unkill dead people. But it is not.
We also say that everyone has the right to clean air and work - and it is not like humans can really provide either or sanction the transgression of those (presumed) rights.
And so on.




That could be because our sense of morality and purpose in life would crumble if we wouldn't.




Mere privileges.


We have a natural sense of morality, meaning there acts we all know to be ''considered'' right or wrong. We have a conscience, we are equipt with tools like, empathy, compassion, intelligence, higher than the rest of the earths population. We also have the ability to use these attributes how we choose. That's some pretty nifty equipment.

If as you say, human rights and civil rights are mere privileges, and a privilige is a ''right'', then isn't the ability to construct such priviliges and the tools to construct them with, a privilige?


jan.
 
If as you say, human rights and civil rights are mere privileges, and a privilige is a ''right'',

Not sure what you mean by 'a privilige is a ''right'''. Why the quote marks?
Do you mean that we tend to think it is our right to construct privileges?


then isn't the ability to construct such priviliges and the tools to construct them with, a privilige?

That part I agree with.

But what conclusions would you like to draw from that?
 
Enmos,


What is cold is saying that girls and women that got pregnant unwanted and choose an abortion are murderers.


The only thing that stops it being a murder is the law, as you said.
The act itself is a murderous act, as the mother in most cases decides to
kill the unborn child.


Because that's what happens when people value morality above law. Look at the world. If people have no concern for the law or when there is no law to speak of they are going to do what they think is right or what their local community deems is right.
What law does, or at least should do, is identify the collective morality and incorporate it.

Why is abortion not considered murder by the law, when the law states that
murder is the act of taking another human life?
How does it justify it?


jan.
 
Signal,

Not sure what you mean by 'a privilige is a ''right'''. Why the quote marks?
Do you mean that we tend to think it is our right to construct privileges?


privilege,

1. a right, immunity, or benefit enjoyed only by a person beyond the advantages of most: the privileges of the very rich.



That part I agree with.

But what conclusions would you like to draw from that?


That we do have rights, because we are alive.


jan.
 
The only thing that stops it being a murder is the law, as you said.
And what did I say about the law?

The act itself is a murderous act, as the mother in most cases decides to
kill the unborn child.
No.

mur·der·ous
   [mur-der-uhs] Show IPA
adjective
1.
of the nature of or involving murder: a murderous deed.
2.
guilty of, bent on, or capable of murder.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/murderous

Why is abortion not considered murder by the law, when the law states that
murder is the act of taking another human life?
How does it justify it?
Get it into your head: Murder is unlawful killing.
You know, Jan, it wouldn't hurt you to look up some definitions.
 
I wouldn't say that all other living things do not have any rights many other living things do have the right to not be tortured the ones that can be tortured that is no matter how anthropocentric we are.
 
I wouldn't say that all other living things do not have any rights many other living things do have the right to not be tortured the ones that can be tortured that is no matter how anthropocentric we are.

The right to live, the right to freedom. Torture in many cases is not a problem at all.
If other living things have rights it's only because we grant them rights. We decide what right they get and what right they don't get.
The only reason people have rights is because it's us that is handing them out. And just make them up.
 
Enmos,


Why is abortion not considered murder by the law, when the law states that
murder is the act of taking another human life?
How does it justify it?


Get it into your head: Murder is unlawful killing.
You know, Jan, it wouldn't hurt you to look up some definitions.


I understand and accept that, but I think you misunderstand my question, or
you are evading it.

jan.
 
You said that ''murder'' is such because it is ''unlawful killing''.
My question goes further and asks, why is it unlawful.

jan.

Figure it out. You appear to be unwilling to read my posts. I'm not going to repeat what I have stated several times already.
I won't reply to your 'inquiries' until you make the effort to read my posts.
 
Why is abortion not considered murder by the law, when the law states that
murder is the act of taking another human life?
How does it justify it?

One possible legal intuition behind it could be something like this:

Any crime, that by its nature is such that it requires at least two persons to commit it, can justly be persecuted only if all the involved persons are prosecuted.

For example: illegal drugs. There are at least three persons necessarily involved: the producer, the distributor and the user (they can of course also be one and the same person, hence the three are only different roles; but usually, it is two or three different persons). In most countries, all three roles are criminal. It is not that the user would take the whole responsibility and culpability, and the producer and distributor would be innocent.

By similar reasoning, an unwanted pregnancy is a crime that requires both the mother and the father in order to commit it.
But since for the majority of human history, it has been impossible to establish with certainty who the father is, while it is certain who the mother is, even theoretically, only one accomplice is knowable (namely the mother). It would not be fair that in a crime that by its nature is such that it requires at least two persons to commit it, only one person would bear the whole burden of the crime.

To consider abortion murder, but only punishing the woman, would not be just, as it would ignore the role of the child's father, who may be just as guilty as the mother to bring about an unwanted child.

In other words, the situation with abortion (and sometimes infanticide), may be legally unresolvable due to necessary lack of evidence (at least historically this lack is a given, since they had no DNA tests) and due to lack of proof on whether there was a meeting of the minds between the man and the woman before engaging in intercourse (ie. perhaps one wanted to have the child and the other didn't).
 
I cannot think of any such "right" that humans have that, once transgressed, could be guaranteed by humans to reinstate the state before the transgression.

Time marches on.
We can learn from our transgressions.

(if i've understood your point correctly)


jan.
 
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