At what point, from conception does a ''phetus'' become a human being?

Enmos,

No, law is constructed from morality, medical insights etc. It takes precedence because it is more important than all those others things on their own. The law makes for a more weighed argument than the others on there own because it takes into account the others where considered reasonable by either the majority or experts or both.
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Therefore, whoever decides what is law, also decides what is good and moral, if it is constructed from morality. Right?
How does it decide that abortion should be a legal activity?


jan.
 
I dont consider my scrambled eggs a meal of chicken. I dont consider roe fish. When I see road kill deer who are heavy with fawn, I dont consider that two separate deaths, it is the death of a doe and a fetus. It might have been born a fawn, it might have been a still birth, but whether or not the fetus would have been a live viable fawn is an unknown.

And when a woman has a miscarriage, it is the death of a fetus. The family may feel it is the death of a human being but it is a fetus. No guarantees.

Many cultures have traditions regarding naming of a child after birth. Often these rules were described as the child may merely be a visitor from the spiritual plane and will be called back (child mortality was higher then). Culturally, they often were not considered a human until being named.

"...the main causes of perinatal mortality is that the respiratory system and the central nervous system are not completely differentiated."

"Birth before 39 weeks, even if considered "at term", increases the risk of complications and premature death, from factors including under-developed lungs, infection due to under-developed immune system, problems feeding due to under-developed brain, and jaundice from under-developed liver."

Above quotes from wiki Fetus page and Pregnancy page.

The above means their lungs and nervous system are not independent of their host. Issues with a brain not being developed enough to trigger the feeding instinct is a pretty basic requirement of a separate life. They do not survive on their own (medical advancements aside).

So to answer your question, for me, it is when the child is born and viable.
 
When does it become a human being? When someone cares about it. These days, sometimes that doesn't even happen after it leaves the womb...
 
There is a difference between what is legal and what is science, with legal going to the highest bidder or in favor of politics. Science is suppose to be more objective although mercenary science does occur. Once you realize legal does not always mean real, the discussion then becomes science versus political science.

In science the definition of life is (wikipedia).

Life (cf. biota) is a characteristic that distinguishes objects that have signaling and self-sustaining processes (i. e., living organisms) from those that do not,[1][2] either because such functions have ceased (death), or else because they lack such functions and are classified as inanimate.

Legal smoke and mirrors is able to undermine science but recruiting science to undermine itself in exchange for favors. In the legal world, even the criminal is given full defense and often avoids justice. Science played the role of mercenary selling out its own definitions in favor of gold coins and smoke and mirrors.
 
Jan Ardena said:
Therefore, whoever decides what is law, also decides what is good and moral, if it is constructed from morality. Right?
How does it decide that abortion should be a legal activity?
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Nowadays, in many countries, it is on the basis of a vote in the parliament (or similar legislative body), the voters being members of the elected political parties.

For all practical intents and purposes, laws reflect a partiuclar political scene more than anything else.
It's actually quite ridiculous, if it wouldn't also be tragic, given the power that politicians have ...
 
Jan Ardena said:
I'll assume you are opposed to murder.
Do you oppose it because it is unlawful,
or because of the act itself??

jan.
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Murder = unlawful killing.
I only answered your question.

Jan Ardena said:
That leaves us at the mercy of the law makers.
The African slave was legal, therefore it was right?

jan.
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So, you are opposed to law? I always thought the law was a good thing to have.
At the time people thought it was right. Now we don't. Times change.

Jan Ardena said:
Enmos,



Therefore, whoever decides what is law, also decides what is good and moral, if it is constructed from morality. Right?
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No, that's not how it works.
 
milkweed,


I dont consider my scrambled eggs a meal of chicken.
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In all seriousness, would you eat scrambled aborted babies if they were
presented, and seasoned up nicely?


When I see road kill deer who are heavy with fawn, I dont consider that two separate deaths, it is the death of a doe and a fetus.
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In the case of an unborn child aren't you just convincing yourself by calling it a fetus, a name which removes the notion that it is a human who started out just like yourself?


And when a woman has a miscarriage, it is the death of a fetus. The family may feel it is the death of a human being but it is a fetus. No guarantees.
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So the family is being unnecessarily emotional, or irrational?
After all, it's only a ''fetus''.

Many cultures have traditions regarding naming of a child after birth. Often these rules were described as the child may merely be a visitor from the spiritual plane and will be called back (child mortality was higher then). Culturally, they often were not considered a human until being named.
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Do you have any links.


"Birth before 39 weeks, even if considered "at term", increases the risk of complications and premature death, from factors including under-developed lungs, infection due to under-developed immune system, problems feeding due to under-developed brain, and jaundice from under-developed liver."

Above quotes from wiki Fetus page and Pregnancy page.

The above means their lungs and nervous system are not independent of their host. Issues with a brain not being developed enough to trigger the feeding instinct is a pretty basic requirement of a separate life. They do not survive on their own (medical advancements aside).
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But isn't that the process?
We started out like that and the only difference between us now, and us then, is development.

So to answer your question, for me, it is when the child is born and viable.
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So in other words human being-ness occurrs when we accept that it does? :)


jan.
 
Don't you want to call it a human just so you can limit abortion rights?

Who cares even if it is a human? There are circumstances in which it is permissible to kill a human. Imagine if a full grown human had invaded your body and started stealing your blood and nutrients, wouldn't it be within your rights to kill them?
 
Enmos,

Murder = unlawful killing.
I only answered your question.
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Sure but I upgraded it because you said the law is constructed from morality.


So, you are opposed to law? I always thought the law was a good thing to have.
At the time people thought it was right. Now we don't. Times change.
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No, I'm not opposed to law, but am opposed to murder.


No, that's not how it works.
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So how does it work?


Why is killing an unborn child not classed as murder?
Who decided that the unborn child is not a human-being?

jan.
 
Don't you want to call it a human just so you can limit abortion rights?

Who cares even if it is a human? There are circumstances in which it is permissible to kill a human. Imagine if a full grown human had invaded your body and started stealing your blood and nutrients, wouldn't it be within your rights to kill them?
 
Jan Ardena said:
You're quite right, but the definition of murder is an act. So how does the
law discriminate between what is murder, and what is not?

jan.
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Well for instance you can kill a dog, but that's not murder. But if it was my dog I could murder you in retaliation. Only human beings can be murdered and it seems to me when a fetus becomes a human being is defined by law.
 
KilljoyKlown said:
Well for instance you can kill a dog, but that's not murder. But if it was my dog I could murder you in retaliation. Only human beings can be murdered and it seems to me when a fetus becomes a human being is defined by law.
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Which brings us back to the OP. :)


jan.
 
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