Are men afraid of women who know what they want?

mikenostic said:
In case you've been under a rock for the last 5000 years, women tend to not like men who kiss their ass and agree with them all the time.
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I have to agree with you there. I am not interested in some "YES DEAR" all the time man. I find the ones that are come across wimpy. I think that some ppl that say they NEVER have an argument in their relationships are also the same ones that have this type of relationship. It is a partnership and I would rather have an argument then live with someone who just backed down and agreeed with everything I said, even though thats not how they REALLY felt.

As for the hitting back. I think that if a woman starts hitting a man out of nowhere, they should be prepared for the consequences. You can't expect to go swinging at a guy with your fists, baseball bat whatever and just have him stand there and take it. Just because you are a woman doesn't mean he shouldn't defend himself or fight back.
 
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shorty_37 said:
As for the hitting back. I think that if a woman starts hitting a man out of nowhere, they should be prepared for the consequences. You can't expect to go swinging at a guy with your fists, baseball bat whatever and just have him stand there and take it. Just because you are a woman doesn't mean he shouldn't defend himself or fight back.
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lol Woman or not, she'll get it..
 
Like, duh

Orleander said:

LOL, a female cat perhaps?
You're right, all those other things never even crossed my mind. They are all good theories. I just went with the women only want money/use men thing he goes on about. Like a woman dated him and dumped him for some guy with more money. A faithless women like that.
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Well, in something like this the focus isn't always so directly symptomatic. It could just be an easy handle to grab onto.

Maybe he just needs to get laid. But that's all beside the point. The notion that he is insecure about women is fairly apparent, I think, but the reasons why aren't. I would suggest caution, lest we start to think you're merely prodding him over it. And, frankly, there's no need to stoop like that.

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Mikenostic said:

Probably not as many as there are women raped by men each year. What does this have to do with anything? ....

..... I would say none because the last time I checked, men don't get pregnant. Again, what does this have to do with anything?
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It has to do with the part of the conversation that you chose to comment on the comments about.

ABS is irritated at what he perceives as injustice against men. Part of that alleged injustice is the Violence Against Women Act. Laws like those are constructed in response to specific social issues and advocacy of solutions. He is angry that the problem of violence against women was addressed, in part because it was specifically about women.

There are a number of things to consider, but two stand out. First, violence against women is a tremendous problem. Second, violence against men by women occurs in a different context related to history. This speaks volumes about the social attitudes toward violence against men, which says much to explain why there isn't a specific law protecting the traditionally-empowered class. Third, men have been curiously silent about the abuse they suffer. This also tracks back to social attitudes and historical contexts. Ironically, background misogyny contributes to this silence. Because of this silence, we've done little specifically about men who suffer domestic violence. However, ABS' response to the situation is to blame women.

How so?
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Well, it's part of the sentence. "Treat her like a person, but don't put up with any bullshit."

What, you put up with bullshit from "people", but not "women"?

Women are people, too. If you do or don't put up with bullshit from people, that includes women.

But there are a few things in that physical realm that I would not consider physical abuse
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Fine. Whatever. I admit I find it strange how people explain these detailed standards and then go out of their way to explain that it in "NO WAY" blah-blah-blah.

Right, I get it.

Now, would you disarm a man and then start punching him?

I don't hold women to a different standard.
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If you say so.

How is this holding women to different standards?
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So that's how you treat a woman. How about "people"?

Do you understand, Mike? That's all I was getting at: Women are people, too.

Treat her "like a person"? "But ..."?

I grimace at the fact that you sit there at your computer judging me so in depth from a few lines that I type on an internet forum, instead of actually asking why I think a certain way
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What? Asking you to reconcile what appears to be a separate standard for "women" as opposed to "people"?

What's so hard about saying, "That came out wrong"? I actually figure that's the case. Because I'm sure you didn't actually mean what you wrote when you said, "I think what a lot of people fail to realize is that just because men shouldn't ever put up with a womans' bullshit, that he should also mistreat her and disrespect her." There's a typo, or a syntactical error in there.

Yet you're thematic about it, too.

A lot of what I say may sound misogynistic, but it's not.
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Not overtly. But you're subject to the same background misogyny we all struggle with. You "will treat them like a person"? They are people. Treat them as such.

Oh, and I love how that even though Perfect was the one that made the comments that I merely added to, you felt the need to come after me for some reason. You didn't give him an essay of a response. What gives?
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Because, like, you played the mindless cheerleader, y'know? Like, duh!

Besides, I tend to think you're smarter than you show. Perfect? There's almost no point in bothering with him. He's harmless, for now. He can go on masturbating without hands all he wants. As long as he doesn't get it all over the rest of us.
 
Enmos said:
What do you mean ? I was talking about myself.. if some woman starts beating on me I am not just going to stand there. If necessary I'll defend myself with force, woman or not..
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being female if i hit a guy then i would expect it back, no one should just stand there and be slapped about by anyone
 
Tiassa said:
It has to do with the part of the conversation that you chose to comment on the comments about.
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I think there is some misconveyance/misinterpretation going back and forth here.
My main discussion about women is in the dating sense, not interaction with them in general. As far as everyday interaction, I more or less have no problem with them. In fact, they can be a joy to be around. I work in a small office with three women here. I get along with them great. Yeah they do tend to gossip a bit here and there (I loathe gossiping), but it's no big deal. I've had women supervisors before and I like them just as well as I do having a male boss. Sometimes they can be a total bitch, every bit as much as a male can be a total asshole.
So, apologies for being vague in that sense.
What I meant about not putting up with any b/s, is that I've found that a lot of women think they can act the way they want to simply because of the fact that they own a vagina; doubly so if they are dating someone. I see so many couples where the woman is just being a total bossy bitch to her b/f, husband, etc. and I'm like 'dude, grow some balls'. I can't stand bitchy, self-centered behavior and usually won't hesitate to call it out in a second (tactfully, of course).*
Say, if I was having a convo with a girl and she is just totally aloof and obnoxious, I'd excuse myself from that convo by saying something like, "Well, I'd love to stay and chat, but you're a total bitch." And walk away.

Here's another example; a girl I used to date. She was very pretty and the guys she dated always put her up on a pedestal. She tended to be a bit pushy and bossy. Anyway, I was a bit late for our 5th or 6th date(and she neglected to tell me that she was making dinner). As soon as I got there, she let me have it. I was thinking 'who does this bitch think she is?'. She didn't even get finished with the 2nd sentence when I said, 'you are out of line. I'm not putting up with this. I'm going back home.' Then turned around and got halfway to her door and she said, 'wait. I'm sorry. blah blah blah.' Her apology sounded sincere so I stayed; I was still rather pissed off though. Even though the main reason I stayed was that I knew I was going to get laid that night. That might make me sound like a jerk, and getting laid wasn't the main reason I went over there to begin with, after she went off like she did, she more or less removed any other reason to stay there, besides sex.

ABS is irritated at what he perceives as injustice against men. Part of that alleged injustice is the Violence Against Women Act. Laws like those are constructed in response to specific social issues and advocacy of solutions. He is angry that the problem of violence against women was addressed, in part because it was specifically about women.
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I don't think it's an injustice against men per se, so much as it is a lot of women are misusing/abusing their newly acquired freedoms over the past few decades. I think they're going a bit overboard with it; the feminazis being a prime example. They want equal rights (which I'm all for) but rights that only suit their agenda.

Third, men have been curiously silent about the abuse they suffer. This also tracks back to social attitudes and historical contexts.
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I bet that has a lot to do with ego. I mean, what guy is going to say that his SO beat the shit out of him?
Any SO of mine that hit or took a swing at me, would only do it once. I would break up with them immediately and not look back.
And if I ever happened to lose my mind and hit a woman, I would hope that woman takes a gun and blows my head off.

Well, it's part of the sentence. "Treat her like a person, but don't put up with any bullshit."

What, you put up with bullshit from "people", but not "women"?

Women are people, too. If you do or don't put up with bullshit from people, that includes women.
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This goes back to the explanation above talking about women in the dating sense.


Now, would you disarm a man and then start punching him?
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Actually, I probably would. Depending on the situation, and how pissed off I was, I probably wouldn't stop until he was unconscious, or dead(if they had threatened or harmed a friend or loved one).

What's so hard about saying, "That came out wrong"?
I actually figure that's the case. Because I'm sure you didn't actually mean what you wrote when you said,
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Per the first statement above, it might have, but I also think there was a bit of misinterpretation on the other end as well.

*likewise, if I'm being a total jerk, I would expect someone to call me out on it; that goes back to holding the same standards.
 
mikenostic said:
Even though the main reason I stayed was that I knew I was going to get laid that night. That might make me sound like a jerk, and getting laid wasn't the main reason I went over there to begin with, after she went off like she did, she more or less removed any other reason to stay there, besides sex.
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It may seem strange, but I am a guy, and I find that when I am pissed off at a woman
it's a turn off. I want to move away.
Like I am going to kiss, get close to, touch intimately and vice versa with someone I am pissed off at?
This is a place where I think a lot of men are loopy.
Some fundamental wire got cut.
 
mikenostic
...What I meant about not putting up with any b/s, is that I've found that a lot of women think they can act the way they want to simply because of the fact that they own a vagina; doubly so if they are dating someone. I see so many couples where the woman is just being a total bossy bitch to her b/f, husband, etc. and I'm like 'dude, grow some balls'. I can't stand bitchy, self-centered behavior and usually won't hesitate to call it out in a second (tactfully, of course).*...
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I've worked for both men and women; the difference is that the women never seem to be empathetic (which just proves that women being more empathetic is horseshit). For some reason women bosses more often think you are trying to cheat them out of something, or maybe like you are not working hard enough, no matter what excuse you give. But there is a reason why they seem atrocious. You see, women never get credit for anything; in fact they all seem to think they always get the blame. Most women think about two things, sex and blame. Because of this women think they feel more pain than everybody in the world combined. Mary J Blidge (the American singer) released a new album covered "growing pains". When I saw this I was like "please give us a break". And then there's women's crown jewel of pain and suffering-giving birth. While I love and admire women for a lot of what they do but the agony of giving birth is being far too overstated; besides we have sedatives for that sort of thing now. Let me tell you something about pain. One time I was at my girlfriends house when I ran down the stairs and twisted my knee, shattering bones and cartilage in the same process, the sound of "terror" could be heard two floors down. The pain that ran through my body is is indescribable; equivalent to two cargo trains hitting that knee from opposing directions. Till today I don't really walk entirely normally. But you see guys have testosterone, which helps in coping with stress and pain. Totesterone is like a natural pain killer, just buy some totesterone amplifier from an online store and you will get the same feeling from oxycodone. Women have it too but its not in copious amount, which makes them more susceptible to pain, and because of this they have a tendency to blame themselves even if its not their fault..as long as there is pain around. Women are Venus, men are from Mars, but we are here together. You can't blame women for when they act crazy, but someone's got to blame someone, and guys are professional are that.
 
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mikenostic said:
Bells, since you seem to be so enthralled in critiquing everyone else's posts, and not much else; let's hear your 'intelligent post' on the matter.
You must be one of those feminazis that expects men to put you up on a pedestal, aren't you?
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And you know this how exactly?

My opinion? Lets see, I worked as a prosecutor for several years, dealing mostly with women, men and children who were sexually assaulted, abused and raped, as well as rape victims. I also volunteered at a battered woman's shelter after I retired when I had my children. What exactly is my opinion of this.. Hmmm..

I had one woman who was beaten to a pulp by her husband because she told him she was not in the mood and had pushed him off her in bed. Tell me, do you think her pushing him away could be constituted as an assault on him, so much so that he had to then defend himself to the point where she had to get her jaw wired? How about a woman who was also punched so hard, her nose was shattered when she slapped her husband across the face after he called her a whore and a slut, because she wanted to go out to dinner with her friends? Did she deserve to be punched? Hey, after all, if she hit him first with a slap, he's allowed to hit her back, isn't he? He shouldn't just have to stand there and take it? What about the woman who was raped in every single orifice and then punched until she peed blood for not having her husband's steak cooked just as he liked it? What about the woman who was raped and beaten by a male employee because she called him out for not doing his work properly and for being lazy (he had taken to simply not bothering doing what he was supposed to do)?

What do you think my opinion is on this Mike?

Should women be treated to equal standards? Of course they should. But I do not think a woman who slaps her husband across the face for calling her a whore and a slut for simply wanting to go out with her friends for dinner should be punched so hard in the face that she needs reconstruction surgery. Maybe you might disagree on this point, since a man is supposed to be allowed to hit back under the guise of "equal standards".

Are men subject to sexual and physical violence in the home? Yes. I have spoken to many who have been abused in such a fashion and felt they simply could not strike back because of the repercussions that may result. It's not the women who made them feel that way. It is the men around them. They would either berate him or call him a wimp. So men in such situations often find themselves between a rock and a hard place. Tiassa made a good point earlier on, that no one even bothered to comment on. And it strikes right at the heart of the issue of why there may be a perceived inequality when dealing with equal rights for men in regards to domestic abuse.

"Now, just stop and think about all the history that goes into the social conditions that compel men to not report domestic violence. Just think about it for a minute. Because that isn't "women's fault". It's all of our faults. So instead of getting pissed off about the Violence Against Women Act, which responded to specific problems in society, start asking about why men, and also society in general have not taken certain steps. It's not because NOW or any other group of women are holding back such efforts. So stop blaming them for our inadequacy. Stop blaming our mothers for our fathers' doing (or lack thereof). You seem so determined to denigrate women who don't meet or conform to some abstract idyll of your own that people might just get the idea that you're a misogynist."
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At the end of the day, everyone is allowed to defend themselves with reasonable force when assaulted. But what constitutes reasonable force? Each of the cases I have stated above, the guy tried to defend himself by saying his reaction was reasonable.. "the bitch said no and dared try to push me off".. "the fucking slut knows how I like my food and should have known better".. "she's my wife and I can fucking do what I want with the cunt"..

It is easy to just blame the woman. Hell, women have been blamed for everything since the dawn of time.. she has been blamed for the fall of man in God's grace and now she is being blamed for legislation that supposedly protects only her. Men choose to not involve themselves in trying to protect themselves. It's easier to just say 'fucking women don't want equal protection, because men don't have equal protection'. So in many instances they keep quiet. And if some dare speak out, he is branded a pussy, a wimp, a weakling by the men in his family and circle of friends. So who is to blame that men do not have equal protection? The very men who are so misogynistic that they would call a man who is abused in the home a 'pussy'.. the very men who claim so proudly that if a woman pushes him off her and says no, then he will beat her to a pulp. The very men who think that it is equal treatment to punch a woman in the face. It is people who have this kind of reasoning who are ruining it for the abused men in society. Pat yourself on the back dude. It is because of the kind of attitudes in this thread alone that many men do not come forward out of fear of being branded as being somehow less than the 'man' he should be.
 
(Insert title here)

Mikenostic said:

What I meant about not putting up with any b/s, is that I've found that a lot of women think they can act the way they want to simply because of the fact that they own a vagina; doubly so if they are dating someone.
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Well, we have to look back at the men they are dating. The power of the vagina comes from the fact that men want to fuck it.

Without that obsession among men, the course of history would be much different, and the human endeavor would exist in a different context.

But you do make the point, Mike:

Her apology sounded sincere so I stayed; I was still rather pissed off though. Even though the main reason I stayed was that I knew I was going to get laid that night. That might make me sound like a jerk, and getting laid wasn't the main reason I went over there to begin with, after she went off like she did, she more or less removed any other reason to stay there, besides sex.
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It's a matter of our priorities as men, too.

I don't think it's an injustice against men per se, so much as it is a lot of women are misusing/abusing their newly acquired freedoms over the past few decades. I think they're going a bit overboard with it; the feminazis being a prime example. They want equal rights (which I'm all for) but rights that only suit their agenda.
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Given that the "feminazis" arose in response to "rape culture", I would suggest that we focus on people instead of women. So to speak, eh?

I bet that has a lot to do with ego. I mean, what guy is going to say that his SO beat the shit out of him?
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I would agree (social attitudes). But this only reinforces the notion that making it about women, as ABS consistently does, is a misattribution of the issue. It's a human issue. Focusing on what's wrong with women is just complaining about women.

It seems like the pendulum theory. Instead of simply correcting a perceived imbalance, we're supposed to swing the pendulum the other way. Where ABS perceives men have been getting shafted, he seems to want to make this about bagging on women. What he fails to realize, then, would be that the focus on what's wrong with men he perceives is an outcome fueled by centuries of misogyny. We need to examine that misogyny in order to be done with it. We've made tremendous progress in the last century, but we still have work to do. Complaining about how men are victims without giving any consideration to history and empowerment issues is symptomatic of phallosupremacist propaganda.

And if I ever happened to lose my mind and hit a woman, I would hope that woman takes a gun and blows my head off.
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That would be unfortunate.

This goes back to the explanation above talking about women in the dating sense.
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Which is a difficult proposition to resolve. I mean, I've been through dating nightmares before, too. One of the reasons I insist on defining women as human beings first is because defining them as potential sexual partners has only brought misery.

Actually, I probably would. Depending on the situation, and how pissed off I was, I probably wouldn't stop until he was unconscious, or dead(if they had threatened or harmed a friend or loved one).
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Well ... that could be problematic for you in other contexts, but for now the relevant point is that you've described a separate standard about men and women. I would encourage the solution of affording your fellow males the same dignity you would give women in that case. But that's just me. Maybe some would advocate a woman's "right" to be beaten to death.

Per the first statement above, it might have, but I also think there was a bit of misinterpretation on the other end as well.
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The thing is that it's thematic. I'm pretty sure I know how to read it ... but then a similar issue arises.

So thank you for taking the time to clear those issues up. It is very helpful.
 
Are men afraid of women who know what they want? Well, it depends.

Do you want us strapped to a sacrificial altar to be eviscerated? Well then, yes.

Go for a walk? Not so much.
 
I'm ultra-feminist, but I all I really stand for is equal rights. I know exactly what I want in a relationship and what I expect out of my career, I've never met a man who has had a problem with it, but if they do thats something they have to deal with because I'm livin' for me... I was living before him and I can surely live without him.
I even accept angrybellsprout's right to be punched in the face, if I deserve it. But you better knock me out or kill me, because I would kick your ass.
 
CutsieMarie89 said:
I'm ultra-feminist, but I all I really stand for is equal rights.
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I rarely see a female that stands for equal rights and is willing to take the responsibility to maintain that equality. For example, after one of our male sales person left due to personal reasons (moved closed to his relatives in another state), we hired a female in his place who came highly recommended. She acted and talked like an ultra-feminist too.

Unfortunately her view was to work around her schedule and not what our standard business practice was. She did not want to go out of town on sales calls, or work late, or do the proposals over the weekend or meet us for dinner and strategy sessions etc. etc. So we started losing our business to the competitors. Finally the boss decided...it was time for a man to do the man's job....
 
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It is thousands of years of gender wars captured in a blue and pink bottle. Peculiar buzz, like you were witness to a (he vs. her) spitball fight. The walls of your inner-being spackled with useless wet facts on masticated paper. Contains no alcohol. Often used in place of birth control pills.

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