are atheists a product of Murphy's law?

If natural law prevails, then there is no need for God to do anything. The so-called "laws of physics", such as the conservation laws, are not restrictions on the behavior of matter imposed by an external agent or by a world of abstract Platonic mathematical forms. Rather they arise from the self-imposed requirement that physicists' descriptions of nature be independent of the particular point-of-view of observers- that they be point-of-view invariant.
 
spidergoat said:
If natural law prevails, then there is no need for God to do anything. The so-called "laws of physics", such as the conservation laws, are not restrictions on the behavior of matter imposed by an external agent or by a world of abstract Platonic mathematical forms. Rather they arise from the self-imposed requirement that physicists' descriptions of nature be independent of the particular point-of-view of observers- that they be point-of-view invariant.
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:wtf:


god IS the law. :bugeye:
 
Nope. God is evoked as an explanation only when there are no naturalistic explanations. God is specifically defined as an agent capable of breaking natural laws, these acts are called miracles. The universe did not seem to need a miracle to exist.
 
spidergoat said:
Nope. God is evoked as an explanation only when there are no naturalistic explanations. God is specifically defined as an agent capable of breaking natural laws, these acts are called miracles. The universe did not seem to need a miracle to exist.
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no. that perspective is just a rather nonsensical paradigm. probably the result of a difficulty in perceiving the limits of our knowledge.
 
Lori_7 said:
no. that perspective is just a rather nonsensical paradigm. probably the result of a difficulty in perceiving the limits of our knowledge.
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That perspective is completely reasonable, and is indeed common usage.
 
You are dismissing the whole paradigm you apparently support. If I pick up a book and put it on a shelf, you don't consider that evidence for the paranormal, the supernatural, or a miracle. If, however, the book floats up by itself and sits on the shelf, then that is evidence for something entirely different going on. In the universe, books do not shelve themselves, and that's the true implication of no natural laws being broken.
 
spidergoat said:
You are dismissing the whole paradigm you apparently support. If I pick up a book and put it on a shelf, you don't consider that evidence for the paranormal, the supernatural, or a miracle. If, however, the book floats up by itself and sits on the shelf, then that is evidence for something entirely different going on. In the universe, books do not shelve themselves, and that's the true implication of no natural laws being broken.
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you don't know there's no way for a book to "shelve itself". you don't know what you don't know...that's my point. there's a way for stationary to wad itself up and shrink on my coffee table "all by itself", i just don't know what that way is, yet. but there obviously IS a way, because it fucking happened. what's a miracle? everything's a miracle, nothing's a miracle...it's just something you don't see very often. :shrug:
 
Lori_7 said:
yeah so...it's the same thing spidergoat's doing.
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No it isn't/Spidergoat is explaining (or trying to, but you don't read) that there is no need for any "being" (or "entity").

i wouldn't describe god as a being but more like an entity, that includes but is not limited to, natural law.
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Really?
What actual evidence do you have for this?
 
Dywyddyr said:
No it isn't/Spidergoat is explaining (or trying to, but you don't read) that there is no need for any "being" (or "entity").
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there's a need for law if you want to have what we have...you know, life and such.


Really?
What actual evidence do you have for this?
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natural law.
 
Lori_7 said:
you don't know there's no way for a book to "shelve itself". you don't know what you don't know...that's my point. there's a way for stationary to wad itself up and shrink on my coffee table "all by itself", i just don't know what that way is, yet. but there obviously IS a way, because it fucking happened. what's a miracle? everything's a miracle, nothing's a miracle...it's just something you don't see very often. :shrug:
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If it happened naturally, as you seem to suggest-that it could be the product of a natural cause that we just don't know yet, then why do you use it as reason to believe in God?
 
Lori_7 said:
there's a need for law if you want to have what we have...you know, life and such.
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And again you fail to read.
Yes we have natural laws (and remember that in science a law descriptive, not prescriptive). But there is no requirement whatsoever for this fictional entity of yours.

natural law.
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Excuse me?
You're citing natural law as evidence that there's an entity not limited to natural law?
How does that work?
What sort "logic" or "thinking processes" are you using to arrive at that conclusion based on that premise?
 
spidergoat said:
If it happened naturally, as you seem to suggest-that it could be the product of a natural cause that we just don't know yet, then why do you use it as reason to believe in God?
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because of what it means. i'm watching that movie "pi" right now. intermission because my hub's on the phone. and i don't have headaches and nose bleeds and shit, and i don't know what the right answer is exactly, but i think like this guy. i think there is a right answer, and i think that answer is god. i think there is an intelligence behind the way everything works in the universe and why, otherwise we all wouldn't have to be so smart trying to figure it out right?

back to the movie...
 
i think there is an intelligence behind the way everything works in the universe and why, otherwise we all wouldn't have to be so smart trying to figure it out right?
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yes and we are a temporary mistake and totally expendable. it's obvious since the planet and our sun will die one day and we weren't here before and we won't be here forever.

your point is what? finding out how the universe works for what benefit? ours or not? if not ours, then there really is no point if we aren't here to understand it anyways.

what you aren't seeing is that there is no indication that there is an "intelligence" at work in the universe, it is just reactions. it's like saying if i accidentally knock over everything on my desk onto the floor, that there is something significant about that other than mere cause and effect.

think about it. what is so intelligent or important about life springing up on some planet that will run it's course and then disappear? what is the point? you are confusing our existence to the laws of the universe and they aren't even uniformly aligned to our objectives either.
 
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birch said:
yes and we are a temporary mistake and totally expendable. it's obvious since the planet and our sun will die one day and we weren't here before and we won't be here forever.
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it's a big universe.

your point is what? finding out how the universe works for what benefit? ours or not? if not ours, then there really is no point if we aren't here to understand it anyways.
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it's the meaning of life.

what you aren't seeing is that there is no indication that there is an "intelligence" at work in the universe, it is just reactions. it's like saying if i accidentally knock over everything on my desk onto the floor, that there is something significant about that other than mere cause and effect.
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i think it's significant that you have the power to knock over everything on your desk.

think about it. what is so intelligent or important about life springing up on some planet that will run it's course and then disappear? what is the point? you are confusing our existence to the laws of the universe and they aren't even uniformly aligned to our objectives either.
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what objectives are those?
 
what objectives are those?
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being intentionally obtuse is very annoying. you refuse to think and make others do the thinking for you.

your dog that you love will die one day and i know you don't want it too but you know you have to accept it. if you could, you would make sure he could be healthy, happy and live as long as you do (you can deny it but i won't buy it). that is an indication that our objectives and desires are not necessarily aligned to the universe. there is a reason but we don't know yet.

the fact i have "power" to knock over things on my desk is not significant in the context you are assuming. it does not mean it is indicative of the existence of god.

and what is the meaning of life?! that response made no sense whatsoever.

i have a serious question i want to ask you. why do you even bother to believe in a "christian" god or religion anyways? for the last few posts of yours has revealed that you recognize the laws of nature and evolution and that you don't care about 'morality' but right and wrong (laws of nature/universe). so why not just be a general theist?

so basically, you've broken everything down to how an atheist views the world/universe except you think there is some god/entity who is initially responsible for it all.

even i don't think that highly of this universe as you do. your views are more in line with most atheists than even my views.

if you care so much about the 'laws of nature' which you think your god is responsible for, then why do you focus so much on whether god is taken seriously by others or not since everyone is subject to these laws anyways?

does this make any sense or have all your posts been just more ruse or bs?
 
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scifes said:
no matter how hard the evidence and strong the proof, as long as we have free will, atheists will exist.
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Why Scifes? Why? Why you bother the atheists like this?

You're god has a tricky sense of humor eh? A tricky dicky trickster eh? *slams hand on table* Nothing but tricks I say! :D

But seriously Scifes why does your god keep himself (or whatever) so hidden? Why not just show up and proclaim himself as such like Jim Jones and cease this endless speculation?
 
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