An approach to spirituality without God

[swarm]

Yes is obvious that something or someone started all of this.

Actually what is obvious is just the opposite.

Some others will refuse the idea of any God, and when life turns sour, for instance, when they are confronted with the approaching of their own death (as I see in some of my atheist patients) they are the most stressed out and hopeless of all, their death is the most emotionally painful.

You should look up "selection bias:" A distortion of evidence or data that arises from the way that the data are collected. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias

Now think about why a person would be your patient in the first place and why basing your understanding of atheists on your atheist patients would be foolish.

As they usually go through life blind and unprepared for life's challenges. As they do not believe in the after life they see death as the real end, and die in terrible fear. Very sad to see indeed!

I don't nor do the atheists and other non believers I know. Instead of pinning false hopes on an afterlife and wasting their lives trying to appease a fantasy, they seek to seize each day to the fullest. They tend to be pragmatic about life and prepare them selves for that instead of some after life. Knowing that death is an end, they know there is no reason to fear it and often take an active approach when they find the writing is on the wall to reduce their suffering and the impact on their survivors.

Given your obvious bias I would suggest it would be far more ethical for you not to take atheist patients.

 

[SnakeLord]

When the system does not work that is what we call Disease, which again is part of the aging and dying program. I would accept any criticism to the makings of Nature only coming from a scientist or a group or scientists who are able to bring a being to life from scratch ( I am talking from jsut molecules, not using any already made mechanism such as artificial insemination or stem cells) And only when taht living being is able to exist independently. If you know anyone who has been able to do that, give me the refernce, I would like to hear his or her opinion.

Apologies, I don't understand what you're saying. You call it perfect, I question what you even mean by the term, and then you tell me you'll only accept the opinion of someone that has brought life to existence?

we can go trhough it with life in a more balanced way.

Alas without living in an entirely different way, (completely without suffering), you can't make claim to it being "more balanced".

 

[swarm]

Maybe, if all that was involved in the war was tactic.

Terrorism is just a tactic, any one can use it, any time.

How do you fight a war against every one?

The only way to reduce the use of terrorism is to reduce the perceived need for the tactic.

 

[swarm]

a being to life from scratch ( I am talking from jsut molecules, not using any already made mechanism such as artificial insemination or stem cells)

I did that. The being is myself.

 

[yasmin]

I did that. The being is myself.

Nature did it not you!

 

[yasmin]

Apologies, I don't understand what you're saying. You call it perfect, I question what you even mean by the term, and then you tell me you'll only accept the opinion of someone that has brought life to existence?



Alas without living in an entirely different way, (completely without suffering), you can't make claim to it being "more balanced".

I question the validity of "back sit drivers", I think if you are going to question the value of something someone else did you should be able to give at least one example of someone who did the same thing better.

So far, no one I know has been able to bring a live being from molecules except for Nature. Artificial insemination uses the mechanisms already put in place by Nature, they might be trying to use stem cells to do the same. I do not know, but still they will be using mechanisms put in place by Nature.

Again, I believe suffering is a tool to help us evolve and be able to have a real balanced life.Where would be able to see all of our suffering as an opportunity to improve our lifes or ourselves and others.

For instance: Most Countries that suffered a war in their territory learned that War is bad and are against War at this time; making life better for themselves and for others. I believe if America ever suffered war in its territory, where regular Americans could suffered the horrors of war themselves, War whould have never again been an option for American people. I believe and I hope Americans will be able to figure this out by themselves whitout having to suffer a War in America's territory.

I believe a hedonistic life where there is no suffering for us, is what we all look for. Yet, as we have all sorts of needs, emotional and phyisical, we would have to live like cattle or pets, we would need to be provided for, we would have to be dependent on someone else a superior being? A master?. OOPS! it sounds like a religion!

I believe suffering exists to allow us to figure out how life works so we can be in control of our life. Not depending on any one at the end, except for our own wisdom and intelligence.

 

[yasmin]

sorry "back seat drives" NOT "back sit driver"

 

[earth]

I question the validity of "back sit drivers", I think if you are going to question the value of something someone else did you should be able to give at least one example of someone who did the same thing better.

Very good yasmin, you are right on. This is the number one problem, IMO.

 

[yasmin]

Actually what is obvious is just the opposite.



You should look up "selection bias:" A distortion of evidence or data that arises from the way that the data are collected. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selection_bias

Now think about why a person would be your patient in the first place and why basing your understanding of atheists on your atheist patients would be foolish.



I don't nor do the atheists and other non believers I know. Instead of pinning false hopes on an afterlife and wasting their lives trying to appease a fantasy, they seek to seize each day to the fullest. They tend to be pragmatic about life and prepare them selves for that instead of some after life. Knowing that death is an end, they know there is no reason to fear it and often take an active approach when they find the writing is on the wall to reduce their suffering and the impact on their survivors.

Given your obvious bias I would suggest it would be far more ethical for you not to take atheist patients.

Swarm, I do not how many times you have been near death or you have seen people dying. I can only describe what I have seen.

You can believe whatever you want, you are entitled to your opinion. I will not change a word of what I wrote what is more, in my experience, very few people die atheist, most atheist I have seen change their position towards religion when facing death most frequently when they have to go trhough a prolongued disease. If you do not believe me you can go to hospitals and see for yourself, ask around, ask social workers, chaplains.....

 

[earth]

Originally Posted by swarm
You cannot win a war against a tactic.

Originally Posted by earth
Maybe, if all that was involved in the war was tactic.

Originally Posted by swarm
Terrorism is just a tactic, any one can use it, any time.

How do you fight a war against every one?

The only way to reduce the use of terrorism is to reduce the perceived need for the tactic.

Terrorism a way or method to express one’s ideology?
Not everybody is fighting the terrorism war.
Terrorism is a way to force one’s ideology on other people. Terrorism is a tactic but not the driver you implied in your first post. Ideology is the driver, IMO.

 

[swivel]

Yasmin, I really enjoyed reading that initial post.

You wonder, "So why do we live?" and I think this question creates a lot of problems.

People have struggled with this for thousands of years, and no good answer has even been stumbled upon with luck. The overwhelming lack of evidence points to a startling (but quite obvious) solution:

Why do we live? Because it takes LESS energy than NOT living. It's like asking why objects fall toward the center of the earth. Or why hydrogen and oxygen combine to form water. It's a downhill reaction. A natural consequence of having a hot ball of plasma feeding energy to a planet with water in all three phases.

We live because it's natural. It had to happen. Chemistry dictated it (with some lucky happenstance, like the Yucatan impactor).

A great source of displeasure comes from looking for an answer that we want, instead of settling on the one that's obvious. There's no greater meaning INHERENT in our existence, but that doesn't mean we can't impart some by force of will. Help a friend. Create art. Smile. Adopt a pet. Be a good parent. Since there's no meaning in life, it means we can create our own.

And rather than be saddened by the temporary nature of it all, imagine another solar system (there's a few trillion of them out there) that has everything set up for life, but the best planetary candidate is just a few million miles outside of the liquid water zone. What a loss! Think of the trillions of living organisms that would have existed, but don't! They may have created an Internet and posted the amazing coincidence of their existence, but they can't! If our coincidental lives seem cruel and unfair and too-short... just think of those that never got the chance.

Breathe deep and enjoy life, even when it's cruel. That's my advice.

 

[yasmin]

To Swivel:
Thank you for your post. Now let me ask you something, you are saying that living takes less energy than not living. Are you talking about been in a spiritual state takes more energy than in a living state?

 

[Alien Cockroach]

I wanted to share these thoughts with everybody; I think this may help somebody. Any feedback is welcome, even aggressive ones; there is always some point in every opinion.

After the death of my father, almost 30 years ago, I started questioning the reasons why do we have to lose our loved ones. Why death has to exist?

Here is my answer: No reason. It just is. There is no purpose or motivation behind the fact of our mortality. It sucks, doesn't it? Be angry. Support biomedical research, for example, and better safety standards for motor vehicles. It might not give you eternal life, but it will give you a way to feel effective.

As I went through with life, I figured that suffering and challenges are most of the time constant elements on peoples’ lives with relatively short periods of happiness that depend more on a positive interpretation of the facts than on the quality of the facts themselves.

I disagree. Most of the people around me spend most of their time suffused with feelings of contentment. They like having a good time and playing games on their Wii. They like skateboarding and playing guitars. They like cooking awesome food or taking care of plants. They love raising puppies and watching them grow into strong, beautiful animals. And a lot of them really love working at their jobs; they have coworkers that they like, and working makes them feel useful and effective.

As we live trying to deal with our daily problems, we slowly get older and weaker. Life makes us give up on many of our childhood dreams. We might never find real love in our lifetime or we might witness the death of our loved ones. All of this in preparation for the final insult: getting sick and die some day. We are usually aware of our own physical and mental deterioration and of the final end that is awaiting us.

I am happy to say that I've found love in my own life, and it's a lot easier to find than you might think. What really makes the difference is choosing to care about somebody more than you care about yourself. As for my childhood dreams, I have tried being a so-called "realist" and trying to let go of my dreams to better concentrate on survival. It took me four years to realize, "fuck that." I may be deluded, but I'd rather be deluded than beaten. If I still haven't given up on my aspirations on the day I die, that would still be a victory for me, if a pyrrhic one, because the hardship and setbacks couldn't beat me down. I got angry, and I haven't looked back.

Why do we live? Why do we have to suffer so much in life? What is the point of life when it feels it is like a cruel joke?
I, honestly, believe all of the depressed, bipolar, suicidal people might really have a point; they just do not have the answers.

I've been dealing with bipolar disorder for so long, a depressive episode isn't any worse than a common cold anymore. I drink plenty of water, I remember to eat when and what I'm supposed to, I sleep when I'm supposed to, I improve the lighting in my environment, and eventually it goes away. They're a real snore after you've learned how to deal with them. At this point, they're really just annoying because they're an impediment to getting things done, and they can be expensive to treat. If you do know how to treat them, though, they're brief. They go away, and they're really just breaks from a generally happy life. Whether you're rich or poor, old or young, life can be...good, for the most part.

Organized religions fail to give real spiritual guidance to answer these questions. They mainly focus on rules and regulations, fear and punishment. They usually develop systems of power to manipulate their followers most of the time with very materialistic goals, far away from the spiritual world. Some will insist that suffering is the decision of a superior being. In this way they are taking away our responsibility for our own pain, as it occurs some times; and the value of the teaching tool that suffering really represents.

This depends on the church. I've visited good churches and bad churches. Some of them try to fill you with guilt. Some of them talk a lot about how terrible life is and how we should pray to make it better. Some are really fun, though, and they're not terrible places to visit at all. And a few actually have a genuine, bonafide sense of spirituality. Churches are just as diverse as the people who go to them, no more and no less. The same probably applies to mosques, synagogues, and temples.

I tried to find answers for these questions and for some confusing paranormal experiences I started having.

Here's the answer: you can't explain every experience you have, and it's realliy not all that important.

Why do we have to die?

No reason. There is really no rime or reason to it. Be angry, or ignore it. There are some peoiple out there who will try to tell you to accept it, and that's bullshit. What we really need to accept is the fact that it sucks, and it pisses us off. The thing about being angry is that you eventually calm the fuck down and get over it. Venting it effectively leaves you feeling clean, if a little drained.

I have a medical education and I have always been amazed by the perfection of the physiology, chemistry and anatomy of our bodies. The precision of the feedback mechanisms of control to keep us alive, the chemical reactions that take place every second in our bodies so we can continue being alive, all of these processes are simply marvelous. It is hard to believe that spontaneous generation is responsible for this perfection.

Oh, here's a mind-trip for you: in truth, you are a monocellular being. You aren't just a single, unitary entity. You are a hive. You are composed of hundreds of billions of living beings that are all working together to make sure that they have a legacy worth having, and you have a responsibility toward each of these tiny creatures to somehow make their ephemeral existences worthwhile. That's a heavy weight to carry. If we really thought about it too hard, it might drive us mad. We are God to these little guys.

Each of these tiny creatures, for which you bear such an awesome responsibility, has an ancestry that dates back over four billion years. Don't pretend that you can really comprehend that number: you can't. Around two billion years ago, early prokaryotic organisms enslaved a relatively primitive species of prokaryote. After hundreds of millions of years of enlightenment, this relationship began to slowly evolve into a permanent, lasting symbiotry between these very different kinds of creature. Our cells have had a lot more time to evolve than we have. In their small way, they are very ancient and wise. Such a huge expanse of time creates ample room for potential to grow.

Why do we have to suffer?

We don't. If we keep our shit together and run a tight ship the way we're supposed to, there is little suffering in life to speak of. Life is good for those who are good at it. If you're not good at it. I suggest you get learning.

In my personal life and economic life I am far away from succeeding. Emotional wounds inherited from my parents, made me develop a wrong pattern of dealing with rejection. I tend to block all the learning process in relationships by easily withdrawing emotionally and focusing my life in my career only.

Be patient, and be kind.

So why do we live?

Because we choose to.

 

[yasmin]

To Allien Cockroach:
Well I am glad to hear your life is not that much of a struggle, not all of us are so lucky. Are you receiving treament for the bipolar disorder or you do not need treatment at this time?

To Allien cockroach:
Perhaps finding love in your life made a big difference!

 

[yasmin]

Very good yasmin, you are right on. This is the number one problem, IMO.

Thanks!

 

[SnakeLord]

I question the validity of "back sit drivers", I think if you are going to question the value of something someone else did you should be able to give at least one example of someone who did the same thing better.

Misguided, but I understand what you're trying to say.

The X-Factor is on and some muppet comes on stage and starts belting out some music. Cowell says: "Look man, go home - you can't sing".

At this stage, the 'contestant' typically says "I'd like to see you do better blah blah" without realising that the statement is utterly inconsequential. it's irrelevant whether Cowell can sing better or not as long as he has ears to hear bad singing. Someone else not being able to sing does not make your singing good.

Likewise, telling the driver that they drive like an idiot does not mean you can drive but does not in any way whatsoever change the point.

Now, you made the statement to "perfect". I am still asking what that even means. As an example that should help you understand why I question the word, I had my son drop dead slightly over a decade ago. My wife, mother, sister, doctor, neighbour etc all came around without invitation and offered condolences. No god popped around uninvited to do the same. Hence what does 'perfect' mean? In this instance all these humans acted 'perfectly', while any existing god acted 'imperfectly'. This of course can only work on my understanding that perfect does not fail in such instances while retaining the label of 'perfect'. If 'perfect' entails failure then it isn't perfect - as far as I see it.

So, once again: kindly define 'perfect'.

So far, no one I know has been able to bring a live being from molecules except for Nature.

Granted, (although Urey/Miller managed the basics - yes, yes, wrong composition - it doesn't change the outcome). What is your point?

Again, I believe suffering is a tool to help us evolve and be able to have a real balanced life

Again such statement is meaningless without being able to compare it to a non-suffering existence, something you simply cannot do. You are forced into an existence of suffering and hence would obviously make the most of it. It says nothing of most balanced lives or best lives.

I believe suffering exists to allow us to figure out how life works so we can be in control of our life.

I see. So in your view 'heaven' is completely untenable?

 

[yasmin]

To snakelord:
I undesrtand you better now.I believe one of the toughest things life would teach us is to detach ourselves from everything and everybody. One year after my father died, it was the Falkland war in Argentina, my brother was in the Belgrano cruise that the British sank. We cried for my brother's death for 4 days until they told us he was alive. That was the last thing I could take.

I was in so much pain that I decided to stay away from my family. I still had my mother and my 4 siblings that were alive but could die at any moment. I decided to stay physically away from and them I went to live hundreds and now thousands of miles away and I never returned to live in the same city.

I wanted to stay away so if they should die the shock would not be so bad for me and if I died it would not be too bad for them either.

Now I contact them once a week, and visit with them once a year.
They know I am alive, they know I exist, but I am not really there, they continue with their lives, I am more of a concept and idea. That is the most important thing about those who we love.
My family has not gone through the pain of my death yet, but practically I could be dead and basically the situation would have been the same, except for the absence of the hoplessness and anger that the awareness of my death could have bring to them.

To me, life, sometimes put us in contact with these special beings who come to our lives to bring us love and happiness, some good lessons and wisdom, just to take them away from us. And it seems that somehow we have to manage to be happy with what they came to teach us and not with seeing them around. ( I could even tell you your son is still existing in another dimension, but I know you may reject the concept, and I can not prove it, so we better work with what we have right now, our undesrtanding )

I believe death either our own or that of a loved one prompt us to explore our spiritual selves and to be less concerned about the mundane life of money, appearances, hypocrisy and learn how to enjoy every minute we can with those we love because we never know when we might lose them.This way, by having the awareness of the possibility of death at any second we can have more meaningful lives and more intense interactions with those around us.

 

[Bishadi]

( I could even tell you your son is still existing in another dimension, but I know you may reject the concept, and I can not prove it, so we better work with what we have right now, our undesrtanding )

Statements like that should bring all ears up!

Prove it! (ooops..... Please share the 'concept') ((i corrected ,myself))

I believe death either our own or that of a loved one prompt us to explore our spiritual selves and to be less concerned about the mundane life of money, appearances, hypocrisy and learn how to enjoy every minute we can with those we love because we never know when we might lose them. This way, by having the awareness of the possibility of death at any second we can have more meaningful lives and more intense interactions with those around us.

i disagree with this analysis. sure appreciation is how to know bliss (completely unbiased in observing each experience)

but that is not the awareness to have a meaningful life because awareness must combine with understanding to remove the suffering of not comprehending the experiences (in truth, an experience can be drilled down into where as in contrast a belief will always have a dead end and the suffering continues).

Meaning; to be truly aware, then observing an action is (can be) comprehended.

The objective "to live" is the intent of life. Comprehending what life is and in awareness; then a MEANING can be understood of life.

Each and every human being on the globe has and wants to know what life is, so to live that meaningful life.

that is why religions still exist as no frame of knowledge has ever defined life, perfectly!


my opinion

 

[Alien Cockroach]

To Allien Cockroach:
Well I am glad to hear your life is not that much of a struggle, not all of us are so lucky. Are you receiving treament for the bipolar disorder or you do not need treatment at this time?

Years ago, any therapists would have taken one look at me and put me on lithium. One thing that made the difference for me was starting to think about my psychological health in the same way that I should think about my physiological health. I started paying attention to things that influence my mood, whether it was diet or exercise, lighting, or time spent around other people.

I also developed a higher level of control over my thought-patterns: I realized that, when I was thinking unnecessarily angry or hopeless thoughts, I needed to demand a justification for them, or abolish them. I've also found that, between anger and hopelessness, anger is less bad for you. It's not precisely good for you, but it's a better option when you're forced to choose between the two. For example, our mortality is inescapably a raw deal, and it sucks. Be angry. There is no rationalization whatsoever that can make it NOT SUCK, and the more we try to bullshit ourselves over it, the worse we'll ultimately feel about it. It's better, in the long-haul, to have your little tantrum about it, get over it, and start acting mature again. The great thing about anger is that you get over it, and you're behaving like an adult again the next day.

But I wouldn't call myself lucky. I was a pretty fucked-up kid, and I'm mature enough to realize now that it was mostly my own god-damned fault. It has taken me over a decade to develop the relatively healthy habits of thinking that I have today, and I'm not perfect even today. I still make mistakes, usually involving taking more upon myself than I am capable of handling. The stress wears me down, I break, and I have to pick up the pieces and build myself back up again..

The sticking point, though, is this: if you start developing healthy habits of thinking today, you're in for a decade-long litany of trial and error, and it's really hard. I'm not going to joke around or pretend I was somehow different: it was hard for me, particularly given my handicaps. It has to be grown and watered like a plant. Every defensive system needs to be tested with stronger challenges to its validity than you are ever likely to encounter in real life.

Well, that's my spirituality. Some people jog, some people practice Yoga, and those are all well and good. I practice at developing healthy, productive, sturdy habits of thinking, geared toward nourishing my sense of hope and my drive to succeed. Well, that's why I can run ten miles without a break: far and away more important than physical stamina is EMOTIONAL and MENTAL stamina. Bodily aches and pains stemming from exertion don't really mean as much when your mind is at peace. Just remember to drink plenty of water.

Ten years ago, any therapist who had any morals at all would have put me on the lithium without a second-thought. I was one fucked-up, young man, and I was pretty fucked-up for a long time after that. I'm still pulling my shit together even today. You can see, based on some of my tirades on the other forums, just how unstable my emotions can be. You'd have to be myopic not to realize that I DO have times where I can be immature. I try to be better than that, though.

To Allien cockroach:
Perhaps finding love in your life made a big difference!

It did, yes. It took a lot of work to build up that relationship, though. Can you envision yourself dedicating five-to-eight hours out of your entire day to winning the affection of one single person? I keep running into people who are whining, day in and day out, that they will never find the one perfect love. It's not something you find. It's something you seed, water, and nurture from the depths of your heart. Every man and every woman out there is imperfect in some way. The longer you know them, the more obvious this will be. That's not about to change. Well, you're an imperfect human being, just like them. But imperfect human beings need loving, too, you know. Aren't you evidence enough for that? Love is a full-time job.

I think I found love as quickly as I did because I started applying the same philosophy toward romance that I applied toward trying to fix myself. It's not going to start out perfect, and it's something that needs to be built, strengthened, and tested over the course of years. You're going to fall down a lot, and you have to pick yourself back up again. No, the falling down isn't great: it sucks. Be angry, have your little tantrum, and start acting like an adult again. I'm not going to make any joke about it: it's a full-time job. If it turns out to be easy for you, you're a better hand at it than myself.

In any case, I think that spirituality, for an atheist, is simply the development of healthy habits of thinking. If you can practic yoga, boxing, meditation, or any form of art, then you can practice at developing healthy habits of thinking. If a sad, selfish, fucked-up kid like I was can do it, then any douchebag can do it.

 

[yasmin]

Statements like that should bring all ears up!

Prove it!

I know, I said can not prove it, and I said that because of that we should only base our analysis on what we can understand.

but that is not the awareness to have a meaningful life because awareness must combine with understanding to remove the suffering of not comprehending the experiences

Meaning; to be truly aware, then observing an action is comprehended.

The objective "to live" is the intent of life. Comprehending what life is and in awareness; then a MEANING can be understood of life.

I agree! Excellent!