American-Afghan War!!!

I presume that if the US is to win this war, there is some sort of clear objective. Does anyone know what it is? New government in Afghanistan? Destruction of Taliban in order to throw fuel onto the fire of civil war? The capture or exeution of Bin Laden?

Before you all start about how the US is going to win the war, it's worth looking at what winning the war would mean. My suspicion is that the US is not follish enough to attempt any sort of invasion - can't win that way. Most od the country is inaccessible - Afghans have years of experience of guerilla war and think nothing of trekking miles over mountains with a heavy calibre machine-gun strapped to their backs to lay an ambush, then disappear off into the mountains. This cannot be a convetional war, if war is the right word. Special forces will need to be used, but based closeby. Tajikistan and Uzbekistan are possibilities.

But if this is just an effort to damage the Taliban and grab Bin Laden, then it's not a war in the traditional sense.

The Northern Alliance is not a viable alternative government. It may be true that the Taliban is unpopular, but that doesn not mean that the dispirate ethnic tribes of the north can form anything like a government. There is already huge tension among the various groups and upon establishing a government would almost certainly break down into civil war eventually. Regardless of who is in power in Afghanistan, there will always be an 'armed opposition movement'.

What are the objectives of this 'war'?
 
Funny that,the Northern Alliance was the Government in Afghanistan,but they were weak in numbers due to the Russian war,so the Taliban took over.
Also as far as I have heard, the USA is not going to war with any country,just terrorism & those that support it.
 
Originally posted by Captain Canada


There's no way to win in Afghanistan, so it's pointless to even try. Ask the Russians and British. Besides which, all the US needs to do is grab Bin Laden. An airborne division can hold an airbase where special forces teams can be stationed to grab him as soon as any intel comes in. Best way I think, but not easy.









I'm afraid that if some special ops were to kill or grab Osama, his followers would unleash a terrible wave of terrorism upon the USA (or even the entire western world). A few days ago i saw a documentary on the BBC where some experts estimated that Osama could have up to 100.000 followers who are ready to die for him (or their cause). This week a poll conducted among immigrants in The Netherlands revealed that 26% of the immigrants of morrocan origin would be ready to fight for their Islamic brothers. (Thats a huge number considering the number of morrocan immigrants in Holland).
 
Odin

Also as far as I have heard, the USA is not going to war with any country,just terrorism & those that support it.

So I keep hearing, but what does that mean? Is it just an open ended excuse to clamp down on whatever and whoever the government decides to clamp down on? Is it a 'war' against Bin Laden? His organisation? All terrorists? Some terrorists? Who is a terrorist? Where is the exit strategy?

And those who support it? Well the US may have to make some tricky decisions:

Robert Fisk, Independent: for example, the pro-Israeli militiaman who murdered two Irish UN soldiers in southern Lebanon in 1980 and who now live in Detroit after flying safely out of Tel Aviv. The Irish have the name and address, if the FBI are interested – but of course they're not.

Despite all this optimism, this looks like being one of the murkiest, messiest conflicts if we're talking about 'war'. If on the other hand we're talking about international justice, there is a clear way to approach this.
 
<i>"Is it a 'war' against Bin Laden? His organisation? All terrorists? Some terrorists? Who is a terrorist? Where is the exit strategy?"</i>

There is a blacklist:

Al-Qaida/Islamic Army
Abu Sayyaf Group
Armed Islamic Group
Harakat ul-Mujahidin
Al-Jihad (Egyptian Islamic Jihad)
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan
Asbat al-Ansar
Salafist Group for Call and Combat
Libyan Islamic Fighting Group
Al-Itihaad al-Islamiya
Islamic Army of Aden

Osama bin Laden
Muhammad Atif; also known as Subhi Abu Sitta, Abu Hafs Al Masri
Sayf al-Adl
Shaykh Saiid; also known as Mustafa Muhammad Ahmad
Abu Hafs the Mauritanian; also known as Mahfouz Ould al-Walid, Khalid Al-Shanqiti
Ibn Al-Shaykh al-Libi
Abu Zubaydah; also known as Zayn al-Abidin Muhammad Husayn, Tariq
Abd al-Hadi al-Iraqi; also known as Abu Abdallah
Ayman al-Zawahri

Thirwat Salah Shihata
Tariq Anwar Al-Sayyid Ahmad; also known as Faith, Amr al-Fatih
Muhammad Salah; also known as Nasr Fahmi Nasr Hasanayn
Makhtab Al-Khidamat/Al Kifah
Wafa Humanitarian Organization
Al Rashid Trust
Mamoun Darkazanli Import-Export Co.
 
Re: kmguru

Originally posted by odin
That is very debatable,what they said & what happened might be two different things.
It is denied by the accused.
opps think I got the wrong end of the stick here.

While you want to debate, there are people dying in the name of Allah, supposedly the same God as the Bible.
 
Originally posted by Cris
kmguru,

I said educate not indoctrinate. Trying to replace one irrational belief with another achieves nothing.

Cris

May be the methods need to be changed. Test that in the state of Utah, if it works, then you can go outside and educate.
 
Originally posted by Deadwood
kmguru, don't think with all the US and allies military might it is going to be easy to fight Afghanistan. They know the terrain. I think this is mostly why you guys didn't land at Kosovo, you would have got whipped.

We are going to use our military might to terrorize the supporters of terrorists. The truth is the terrorists may be willing to give up their life (because they are brainwashed) but the people who support them are power hungry, smart and normal people. Get to the roots, and you solve the problem.

Don't you remember what happened to Hitler's forces in the USSR? There soldiers weren't equipped for the terrain, the Afghanies live in it.

Again, this will not be a conventional war. Fight wit with wits.

Don't be arrogant with all you military might. My step-grandfather told me the story about one of his dogs who used to win every dog fight. Then one day his dog went up against a little dog. My step grandfather thought it would be easy until that dog bit his dogs {censored}. So don't be complacent.

Again, you are thinking war in a conventional sense of a few years ago. The Paradigm has shifted. And we know how to fight in the new Paradigm.

Also, when did this war against terroism become a war of Christianity vs Islam? Christians don't even take up arms to fight people of different religions as a religion. We might fight for our country but that is doing our duty. As cris said, Jesus said love your enemies. There is no holy war in Christianity because there is no need for one. The pope like Osama Bin Laden justify religions for their holy wars of gaining power. Not the Bible or the Quaran.

All wars are based on ideology. Hindus Vs Moslems, Christians Vs Moslems, Capitalist Vs Communist and so on....

If a group of Moslems go door to door in Alabama, do you know what will happen to them? They will be shot on sight by the locals.

Denying the conflict just makes it worse. It is a religious conflict plain and simple and should be dealt with properly.
 
Originally posted by TheRealDcoy
I'm afraid that if some special ops were to kill or grab Osama, his followers would unleash a terrible wave of terrorism upon the USA (or even the entire western world). A few days ago i saw a documentary on the BBC where some experts estimated that Osama could have up to 100.000 followers who are ready to die for him (or their cause). This week a poll conducted among immigrants in The Netherlands revealed that 26% of the immigrants of morrocan origin would be ready to fight for their Islamic brothers. (Thats a huge number considering the number of morrocan immigrants in Holland).

That is exactly what will happen. Because we are thinking this conflict from a military point of view. World War III is not far behind. There is a way to solve it, but it needs a charismatic leader. We do not have one.
 
Hmm, I don't see it as a religious struggle on the part of our allies. It's more of a war on chaos.
 
I think that, as people in the west gain a greater understanding of Islam and its people, there will be less fear of the Middle East. In truth, Islam worships the same god as those in the west. People are--and more so now in America--curious about the muslim peoples. I wonder, what else might come of this conflict. Could it be that The Last Prophet will bring new hope for this world?

We may be witnessing the birth of a new world religion. Hmm...

Islam is not the threat. Those who cause harm under the pretense of holy justification bring war upon us now. I think everyone can see that.
 
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Well it shouldn't be difficult

to get this lot and their followers:

There is a blacklist:

Al-Qaida/Islamic Army
Abu Sayyaf Group
Armed Islamic Group
Harakat ul-Mujahidin
Al-Jihad (Egyptian Islamic Jihad)
Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan
Asbat al-Ansar
Salafist Group for Call and Combat
Libyan Islamic Fighting Group
Al-Itihaad al-Islamiya
Islamic Army of Aden

Osama bin Laden
Muhammad Atif; also known as Subhi Abu Sitta, Abu Hafs Al Masri
Sayf al-Adl
Shaykh Saiid; also known as Mustafa Muhammad Ahmad
Abu Hafs the Mauritanian; also known as Mahfouz Ould al-Walid, Khalid Al-Shanqiti
Ibn Al-Shaykh al-Libi
Abu Zubaydah; also known as Zayn al-Abidin Muhammad Husayn, Tariq
Abd al-Hadi al-Iraqi; also known as Abu Abdallah
Ayman al-Zawahri

Thirwat Salah Shihata
Tariq Anwar Al-Sayyid Ahmad; also known as Faith, Amr al-Fatih
Muhammad Salah; also known as Nasr Fahmi Nasr Hasanayn
Makhtab Al-Khidamat/Al Kifah
Wafa Humanitarian Organization
Al Rashid Trust
Mamoun Darkazanli Import-Export Co.

Piece of cake!

Who are they kidding? Are they going to go to war against 60+ countries? Are they going to weed out all the terrorists posing as regular citizens in Europe, UK and the USA? Do you really think these are feasible options?

If this horrendous crime was really commited by the accused, why hasn't any one of them admitted it? If it's retribution against their perceived enemy (America) for a just cause (in their eyes) why hasn't any one of them declared it? Why indeed, have they actually denied it? After all, according to the media they're not afraid of dying, on the contrary their martyrdom assures them a place in heaven! So, as they've got nothing to lose and everything to gain, I repeat, why has not one of them come out and admitted it?

This question creates an area for doubt. Maybe they did do it and this denial is meant to confuse people, maybe to make them think of conspiracies, maybe to make some of them suspicious of and turn away from their government.. maybe. But if that is actually the case, what would these groups ultimately gain by being coy? After all they have apparently already declared 'death to all Americans' so why play mind games? Why not come straight out and declare their biggest victory to date?

I wouldn't like to speculate as to who the real perpatrators of this heinous act might be if it's really not any of these fundamentalist groups, but those words, war and Afghanistan were mentioned in the same breath from the first day of the atrocities, as if to a plan. Bin Ladin was 'in hiding' in Afghanistan at the time (a difficult place for the US to catch him indeed), isn't it ironic that at the time Clinton ordered his death or capture in '98, he was 'in hiding' in Turkey? Turkey is a NATO ally, a friend of the USA and I would imagine that American agents shouldn't have had a great problem in locating him had they really wanted to. Heck, if they couldn't catch him there, what makes them think they can catch him now, wherever he might be?

Is there a hidden agenda to all this? Has Afghanistan been chosen for other reasons? Apparently, even if he has escaped its borders, this country is still going to be 'punished' for harbouring him. Will they punish Turkey also?

If it's going to be a war against Afghanistan, it will have to be one of almost total annihilation and destruction, because the Taliban won't be beaten any other way and everybody knows this. Such an act is bound to inspire and spawn even more hatred and terror against America and her helpers.

Why?

As an ordinary, healthyly cynical, thinking individual I can only speculate, but maybe it's so that they can wipe out the retro, uncooperative Taliban, then introduce 'stability', under a puppet government or a placed dictator or occupation by a neighbouring 'friendly' country (Iran? Pakistan?), gain access and first choice to the vast, untapped mineral, gold and oil reserves and acquire a strategic position against China. Does this sound absurd? Perhaps perhaps.

Will they catch Bin Ladin during all of this? Perhaps perhaps.

At the moment, most of the world doesn't agree to all out attack on Afghanistan, but all it will take to move world public opinion is another one or two 'Afghani inspired terrorist outrages' and they'll be ready for it. Terrorised and frightened people will accept anything to 'make the bad thing go away'. Hence, this will also provide a great opportunity to start tagging all of us with electronic ID's 'for our own protection', in this sudden, radically new, all-out 'war' against terrorism and dawning of the age of big brother. A new world order in the making indeed.

Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong.
 
No other religion on the face of this planet will destroy the statue of Budhha or any artifact of historical significance. For that the Talibans should be considered the enemy of humanity and eliminated.

It is the fault of Islam? May be not. Is it the fault of the mideast Islamic states who reap the benefits of oil by the grace of Allah, YES.
 
I didn't mean that the military underdog wins. I was afraid that might be looked at like that. I was saying more so that the force unexpected to win, regardless of size or power can win. This applys to the Taliban kicking our ass, and vice versa. Take that as encouragement or a deturrent, everyone knows my view.

Cris, long time no see. So happy that you are in the World Affairs & Politics forum, I'll try to get back into the science stuff after this cools down a bit. I'm pretty sure that we'd reducated and rebulid after whatever type of war occurs. This will really involve revamping US foreign policy, like it was 1945 today. With no Soviet Union, Central Asia, the Middle East and East Asia, as well as Eastern Europe will be the core hotspots until we fix them.

Pray for peace, but be ready for war.
 
tablariddim,

The conspiracy theories are many, but I think the first is most probable. If I were to place my suspicions on another group, it would be those shady characters who propagate ISO 9000, 9001, 9002, 9003, 9004, 10011, and 10013 within the workplace. It's the working mans harness, you know.
 
Enemies of humanity

--No other religion on the face of this planet will destroy the statue of Budhha or any artifact of historical significance.--

Er, the words Christians and (north and south) American Indian cultures immediately spring to mind.
 
Posted by kmguru
Is it the fault of the mideast Islamic states who reap the benefits of oil by the grace of Allah, YES.

Saudi ARabia and UAE are undoubtedly complicit in the Talban's success, but then so is the US and West to a lesser degree. The SAS provided the present government with invaluable guerrilla warfare training that they have honed into a fine art.

Incidentally, has anyone noticed the plummeting oil prices? Lowest for over a year - largest single day drop on Monday for over a decade. Could bounce back a little, but I would say this is the end of OPEC's two-year run - oil prices are now structurally lower. Another unanticipated consequence of WTC. There are many...
 
Originally posted by Captain Canada
Incidentally, has anyone noticed the plummeting oil prices? Lowest for over a year - largest single day drop on Monday for over a decade. Could bounce back a little, but I would say this is the end of OPEC's two-year run - oil prices are now structurally lower. Another unanticipated consequence of WTC. There are many...

Remember a few weeks ago, I posted in this forum, about world economy and how a drop in oil prices will help a lot? I did send a letter to our president about that and to a think tank that does advices to business and government too. Anyway, that is part of a plan to improve economy worldwide....
 
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