American-Afghan War!!!

I'm not certain so many of Islamic faith support Osama.

No, they do not, if they understand what is happening to the money, they give. Money and objectives are misdirected by propagonda and deception.

There was a large demonstation by Moslems in India for Indian's support for US. Well the rumor was that, India is going to send Gurkha special forces to extract Osama (Note: Gurkhas are the toughest fighters on this planet - no one comes even close).
 
Ah ... gender's merely a label

Sure, it has some practical function, like helping you decide who to sleep with. But since the woman I should have married long ago told me she will do so now if I undergo a gender reassignment, it's all relative.

Also, I keep thinking the gender confusion would amuse Mr Brust, the creator of tiassas. But that's mere speculation, and I'll ask him the next chance I get--though it may be a year or so before I have the opportunity to see him again; I'm hardly on a name-basis with the man.

But about the only difference it seems to make is on the occasion that someone gets upset at me for being a strumpet or hussy or something silly like that. Apparently, if they thought I was male, my behavior would reflect differently. It's not so much that I'll never name my kids "Kelly" or "Pat", but that I might name my daughter Josh and my son Heidi, just to screw with their classmates. ;) (For the record, the woman-I-should-have-married-turned-lesbian would have named our son "Toi". Like I said, it's all relative.)

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:
 
Gender should not make too much difference in a debate - though sometimes it screws up the assumptions, creating an ass out of U and Me!!

All in good fun...
 
That's okay, I'm sure. Teassa enjoys challenging popular perceptions regarding gender compliance...<img src = "http://www.sciforums.com/t4034/s43b4a690e960258f566636048fcebaf0/images/icons/icon10.gif">
 
This thread is going south fast...perhaps because nothing is happening in Afghanistan lately. We are still searching for Osama.

The fall out of all these is security officials at the airport are frisking 95 year old woman at San Francisco Airport.

Airlines have laid off thousands of people so that they can get our tax dollars. But when you show up at the airport, only a handful of people are available to service you.
 
P.S. To anyone living outside of the US or Britian, why is that when you guys need help you bark to us, and when we suffer a national tradgedy you can't even pledge support or resources of any kind against an organization that aims to destroy everything free, and non-Islamic.

I know i'm only Canadian..and i'm likely not able to read (it's just too damned cold in this here igloo, to try book learning), and i'm sure Canada (regular citizens in fact, into thier own homes in fact) didn't take in about 2000 americans who were stranded in Toronto and other Canadian airports for 4 days when their flights were diverted. I know for a fact that no Canadian will be fighting alongside the Allies in this war. Nor did thousands of Canadians give blood that was shipped to the survivors in NYC and D.C.. I know that the highschool just up the street from me didn't hold a bake sale to raise money for the relief efforts.

Funny ya know....

WOOF (dork)
 
My suggestions to the government of Canada will be to get on with the program of US Security, otherwise the borders will be sealed and that means your economy will go south. Better yet, this may be the time to merge with USA.
 
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kmguru:
...otherwise the boarders will be sealed...

Are you referring to skate-boarders or snow-boarders? And isn't sealing them a little bit harsh?

We have a free-trade agreement anyway, and if you check the small print I think you'll find that will be rather difficult.

I know, I know, 'we're the US, we can do whatever the hell we want to'. Well, you can also be sued. Besides which it's an idle threat - Canada is the US' biggest trade partner and stands to lose just as much as Canada. Wouldn't do it anyway... I dare you
 
There will be economic loss on both sides. No one said, it will be one sided. With minor adjustments, it can be avoided. All Canada has to do is watch people landing on her soil. Keep the extremists out, track their money source and pass on that info to US. US should do the same.
 
tiassa ...

what I see is a slow building of reactionary sentiment that could infect the more educated Muslims of the world
I do think that that has already happened. Neither Osama or the perpetrators of the WTC/Pentagon action are/were exactly idiots.
 
<i>"Neither Osama or the perpetrators of the WTC/Pentagon action are/were exactly idiots."</i>

Crazy but not stupid, eh? That probably explains why we haven't rushed to dump a load of pain on Islam. I suppose that it wouldn't require much more prodding.
 
I don't disagree, Chagur, but ...

I do think that that has already happened. Neither Osama or the perpetrators of the WTC/Pentagon action are/were exactly idiots.
It's just a number of things. On the one hand, you're absolutely right. To the other, I think I'm after a different process here.

* A common joke my friends and I held several years ago was that There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom; for instance, I know cigarettes are harmful. This knowledge is not foreign to me, yet I still smoke.

* As some of our fellow posters have noted, knowledge (science in the debate I'm recalling) can be abused. This can take many forms. The obvious is using knowledge of chemistry to kill people for political or religious sentiment; it's kind of a glaring issue right now. But how many "specialists" do you know that, despite their apparent intelligence (as evidenced by their grasp of their field), they have become so wrapped up in their work that they "stop being human"? This even in the sense that a man lets his work as a lawyer take precedence over his children (contrasted against the common "children are the future" sentiment in society), or an actor or model who teaches (even inadvertently) a child that appearance is everything.

Having considered the scope of the problem, I submit the notion that fundamentalism arises from a lack of religious education. This is observable, as Karen Armstrong points out in A History of God and devotes much attention to in The Battle for God (this latter volume I have not yet read), in certain Islamic cultures where tyrants such as Ataturk and Khomeni purged the clerics and intellectuals upon establishing their regimes. With no "enlightened" guidance, common religion fell under the influence of superstition and bigotry, and results in people killing and dying for strange ideas about God.

This, I think, would go a long way toward explaining the rise in vicious fundamentalism such as we see in a bin Laden (as well as a few subjective, psychiatric notions, but that's speculative).

But the toppling sentiment I fear is a simple sympathy: as the bombs rain down and images flood the networks showing dying children, scorched flesh, ruined bodies and razed communities, there might spread a certain sense of excess among the more moderate Islamic community that could foster a new sentimental balance. Muslim nations supporting the US for political purposes might become less cooperative, or even take up opposition. At that point, it becomes frighteningly possible that our pursuit of terrorists will, indeed, bleed over into a Crusade against Islam. After all: You're either with us or against us.

At it's best, let's say we get bin Laden without a war. What now, insofar as the Taliban is concerned? Because even if we get bin Laden without a war, I don't think it's reasonable to expect to dismantle al Qaida without a nasty rumble. At worst, though, this could be huge; depending on how badly we upset whom with our actions, we very well could line up a notable portion of the Islamic world against us. And that would include the "average" Muslim who does not countenance terrorism. And at that point, we all have a really big problem on our hands.

I agree that our declared foe is hardly dull. But I do think the fundamentalism he serves is fostered by ignorance and undereducation. We know already to worry about these people, as it's kind of hard not to. But as the collateral damage from our pursuit begins to mount, will we be able to hold the attention and sentiment of the rest of the Islamic world? And if they line up in opposition, are we obliged by our declarations to knock them down? I see the potential for a huge war. And it should be no surprise to anyone here that the idea worries me.

thanx much,
Tiassa :cool:
 
<i>"...even if we get bin Laden without a war, I don't think it's reasonable to expect to dismantle al Qaida without a nasty rumble."</i>

I think that if we can take off the head(s) of this organization, we will see disorganization within its lower ranks. Possibly limit its reach and ability to cause harm such as the WTC. The thing that disturbs me is that some of these people who participate in the lowest levels of terrorism are educated. Indeed, one of the the pilots of 911 was a student of engineering. Some of these people have the intelect to understand zealotry, yet they are sucked into it and perpetrate its evil.
 
Here is another thought:

Neutralizing oppostion is not a new idea. Every one does it. If a TV host is not politically correct, the oppostion presses the largest ad sponsor to pull out. There are other ways to reduce death and destruction from the extreme factions - it is in the best interest of the moderate ones. And I think, this is what our government is trying to do, behind the scenes. Whether we can put that pressure up, not for months but for years - is another matter.

If we are forced by public for immediate results, we have to do some fire works. As long as the Bush popularity is up, he has the luxury of doing the right thing. Once the popularity starts sliding, he may be forced to take some rash decisions. And that will not be good.
 
I think Bush and America at large will handel this as best as any country in our position could.

I'd say by week's end the attack will begin.
 
thecurly1 ...

I agree whole heartedly ... We'll fuck it up royally!

It was just within the last week or so that the F.B.I. put out an 'all-points' request for translators. That from an agency charged with internal, national, security in a country that in '93 experienced the first strike against the WTC.

We don't even have the humint capability to know where the various Middle East countries stand in this matter, even the 'friendly' ones. And that is not something that can be developed in weeks, or even months. It's not like just putting up another satellite or moving four or more carrier task forces into the area (something that will accomplish nothing more than show America's 'might' and ability to waste money).

We are not 'speaking softly' let alone carrying the 'big stick' needed to pursue this kind of action. We are a scared, bombastic nation that is running around in circles without the necessary resources, or will, to successfully pursue the course of action required.
 
<i>"I agree whole heartedly ... We'll fuck it up royally!"</i>

Honestly, I'm surprised by the degree of caution and the time being used. I anticipated a strike of one form or another by this time.

<i>"It was just within the last week or so that the F.B.I. put out an 'all-points' request for translators. That from an agency charged with internal, national, security in a country that in '93 experienced the first strike against the WTC."</i>

I would say that the war is taking on larger proportions. Preparation?

<i>"We don't even have the humint capability to know where the various Middle East countries stand in this matter, even the 'friendly' ones. And that is not something that can be developed in weeks, or even months."</i>

The WTC changed everything. It created a dividing line: either you stand on this side or the other. I'm affraid, however, that line is starting to blur. We are searching for excuses and reasons.

<i>"We are not 'speaking softly' let alone carrying the 'big stick' needed to pursue this kind of action. We are a scared, bombastic nation that is running around in circles without the necessary resources, or will, to successfully pursue the course of action required."</i>

I don't see that. I look at it as an awakening. We are still groggy from a long sleep.

As for the aircraft carriers, I bet they are there for Iran. They need a good spanking as a reward for their support of terrorism.
 
Can someone explane this to me?

Why the hell are there between three and four aircraft carrier battle groups in the Persian Gulf?

Look at a map, its a thousand friggin miles from Afghanistan and you have to fly across Iran to get there. I think Iraq's gonna get the crap kicked out of them.

If anyone could clear this up, I'd sure be happy to know.

There are too many planes to enforce a no fly zone, against areas of their own country.
 
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