Absurd things Christians say...

[Lori_7]

Not really. The difference for me is that I see no reason to seek out an entity that I have found no reason to believe exists.

It's like, quitting my job and hunting for bigfoot.

My suggestion is that God, if truly an entity that we could experience, communicate and interact with, should show himself or itself or herself to me.

There should be no reason for it to hide and no reason for it to have competition either.

To date nothing has revealed itself to me as a god.

you don't have to quit your job j, but your perception and preconceptions are key here. you have to seek to find. you have to knock before the door gets opened. if you seek and don't find, and if you knock and no god answers, well then there's your answer. not just with god but with anything, if you think you already have the answer, you're not going to learn anything.

 

[Lori_7]

The thing is, you have no clue of what.

yes i do. i can't define god, but god does have observable characteristics...

that are god-like. lol.

 

[Lori_7]

Hence why I placed it between quotes.
So tell me, what is it that makes you so sure that it is god that you experience?
Throw in your definition of god while you're at it.

i don't have a definition. primarily because it's characteristics are so beyond anything humanity has defined. i really can't conceive of what god is. i do though know what god has done to me, and how god's interacted with me. i've reiterated that stuff to death.

 

[Enmos]

yes i do. i can't define god, but god does have observable characteristics...

that are god-like. lol.

i don't have a definition. primarily because it's characteristics are so beyond anything humanity has defined. i really can't conceive of what god is. i do though know what god has done to me, and how god's interacted with me. i've reiterated that stuff to death.

If you can't define god you can't know that it is god that you experience. In fact, if god is not definable then you cannot experience it.

So what are you experiencing exactly when 'it' talks to you?

 

[jpappl]

But right here you say that it should be able to prove it-self to me.

Why do I need to seek it ?

you don't start out with that premise. you start out with the possibility and the assumption that if god is indeed an entity, and worthy of the name god, then it should be able to handle proving it's existence to you.

Secondly, as a child and a youngster, with my catholic grandmother who I loved dearly as a guide, I believed just like I believed in Santa Claus. Neither has ever shown themselves to me.

 

[Lori_7]

If you can't define god you can't know that it is god that you experience. In fact, if god is not definable then you cannot experience it.

oh no you don't...

are you trying to tell me that people were floating around before we defined gravity?

 

[Enmos]

oh no you don't...

are you trying to tell me that people were floating around before we defined gravity?

Are you trying to tell me that you just named your experiences god?
Naming something is not the same as defining something.
It's obvious to everyone that gravity exists, not so with god. You need to define that what you experience first, before you name it.

 

[Hallam Willis]

Not really. The difference for me is that I see no reason to seek out an entity that I have found no reason to believe exists.

It's like, quitting my job and hunting for bigfoot.

My suggestion is that God, if truly an entity that we could experience, communicate and interact with, should show himself or itself or herself to me.

There should be no reason for it to hide and no reason for it to have competition either.

To date nothing has revealed itself to me as a god.

This may be an old thread, but I would like to say my piece on this. Firstly I would like to point out that the Bible says God has written himself on the hearts of all men and women, as well it talks about him revealing himself through his creation. So what you would call a simple act of chance, I call the wondrous work of a creator. The fact that you are having this discussion proves that's true to me. There is a reason that belief in God can't be wiped out completely. I also don't believe in an honest Atheist. An atheist claims not to believe in a God at all, but even the great champion of Atheism Richard Dawkins said he was only 99% sure. This is because every Atheist no matter how hard you try cannot completely remove the idea that God exists from their hearts and minds. So just because God doesn't come down on a flaming cloud, or appear in front of you and say "now do you believe in me?", doesn't mean he is non-existent. Personal experience with God is found when you accept that though some things can be understood and reasoned, being of a finite mind humans are incapable of understanding everything about God, then you enter into a personal relationship with him, through what is called the internal witness, which without nobody would be a Christian.

I realize this isn't a complete answer, but it's a difficult subject to give complete answers on, I finish by saying this. There is something that makes me and many of the smartest men and women ever to have lived believe in something that to many seems ridiculous, something makes the bible more than a historical document to me, something exists that allows me to ask questions and not always get a perfect answer, and that it a personal relationship with God. CS Lewis said "Can a mortal ask questions which God finds unanswerable? Quite easily, I should think. All nonsense questions are unanswerable. "

Also my reference to the bible:

2 Corinthians 3:3 (New International Version)

3You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

In the spirit of this thread, Christians say lots of ridiculous things, but we are all misrepresented at some point in time.

Hal

 

[Enmos]

This may be an old thread

Huh? It's not an old thread at all

 

[jpappl]

Hi Hal,

First of all the bible is full of errors so what makes you believe it is the word of god ?

Since I don't believe the bible is the word of god, why should I believe in it's notion of god ?

The reason people started believing in gods was due to ignorance and fear. Which is the real reason we will never stop believing in them, because we don't want to die and just end.

So there are no honest believers either, because they are merely hedging their bets just in case there is an afterlife, which there is no evidence of.

In the spirit of this thread, Christians say lots of ridiculous things, but we are all misrepresented at some point in time.

Yep, and there are a lot of intelligent christians, muslims and others including non-believers.

 

[Lori_7]

Are you trying to tell me that you just named your experiences god?

yes.

Naming something is not the same as defining something.

i know that.

It's obvious to everyone that gravity exists, not so with god. You need to define that what you experience first, before you name it.

no you don't. people experience lots of things they can't define. they can still describe the experience and observe the conditions and characteristics and draw logical conclusions.

 

[Lori_7]

But right here you say that it should be able to prove it-self to me.

Why do I need to seek it ?

why wouldn't you? you don't think it's an important thing to investigate?

Secondly, as a child and a youngster, with my catholic grandmother who I loved dearly as a guide, I believed just like I believed in Santa Claus. Neither has ever shown themselves to me.

you don't really have that responsibility as a child j.

 

[spidergoat]

...Firstly I would like to point out that the Bible says God has written himself on the hearts of all men and women, as well it talks about him revealing himself through his creation. So what you would call a simple act of chance, I call the wondrous work of a creator.

A statement of your belief, not a logical deduction from the facts.

The fact that you are having this discussion proves that's true to me. There is a reason that belief in God can't be wiped out completely.

Because the idea is appealing to some people.

I also don't believe in an honest Atheist. An atheist claims not to believe in a God at all, but even the great champion of Atheism Richard Dawkins said he was only 99% sure.

That's honesty, not dishonesty. I don't believe that Aliens have landed on Earth, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.

This is because every Atheist no matter how hard you try cannot completely remove the idea that God exists from their hearts and minds.

No, it means that some definitions of God are still theoretically possible, although unnecessary to explain the facts.

So just because God doesn't come down on a flaming cloud, or appear in front of you and say "now do you believe in me?", doesn't mean he is non-existent. Personal experience with God is found when you accept that though some things can be understood and reasoned, being of a finite mind humans are incapable of understanding everything about God, then you enter into a personal relationship with him, through what is called the internal witness, which without nobody would be a Christian.

No, there are other reasons why he is non-existent. Before the idea of God was popular, people believed in other, equally silly things.

I realize this isn't a complete answer, but it's a difficult subject to give complete answers on, I finish by saying this. There is something that makes me and many of the smartest men and women ever to have lived believe in something that to many seems ridiculous, something makes the bible more than a historical document to me, something exists that allows me to ask questions and not always get a perfect answer, and that it a personal relationship with God.

Many of smartest people in the world were also atheists. In the past, little or nothing was known about the cell, or DNA, or evolution, so it wasn't as ridiculous to believe in God. But today we know better.

 

[Enmos]

yes.
i know that.

Ok then. LOL

no you don't. people experience lots of things they can't define. they can still describe the experience and observe the conditions and characteristics and draw logical conclusions.

Then they do not know what it is that they experience.

Case #1
Hey everyone, do you agree that when you let go of something it falls towards the ground?
Yes? Ok, shall we call that 'gravity'?
Good.

Case #2
Hey everyone, do you agree that [insert description of phenomenon]?
Yes? Ok, shall we call that [name phenomenon]?
No? Ok, more research is needed then.

Could you provide the description in case #2?
Also, there is a problem. The word god is already defined so your description should match this definition if your experiences are to be named 'god'.
You just cannot say:

Hey everyone, do you agree that there are these red fruity thingies with seeds on the outside growing on some particular kind of plant?
Yes? Ok, shall we call that bananas?

The word 'banana' is already defined as something else.

 

[Lori_7]

Ok then. LOL


Then they do not know what it is that they experience.

Case #1
Hey everyone, do you agree that when you let go something it falls towards the ground?
Yes? Ok, shall we call that 'gravity'?
Good.

Case #2
Hey everyone, do you agree that [insert description of phenomenon]?
Yes? Ok, shall we call that [name phenomenon]?
No? Ok, more research is needed then.

Could you provide the description in case #2?
Also, there is a problem. The word god is already defined so your description should match this definition if your experiences are to be named 'god'.

wait...god is defined? by whom? where? :bugeye:

 

[Enmos]

wait...god is defined? by whom? where? :bugeye:

Open a dictionary.
If you don't think god is defined what are you doing calling your experiences god?
Isn't that kind if meaningless then? You could just as well call your experiences 'Astugunkin' then.

You aren't going to provide a description then?

 

[Hallam Willis]

First of all the bible is full of errors so what makes you believe it is the word of god ?

Since I don't believe the bible is the word of god, why should I believe in it's notion of god ?

The reason people started believing in gods was due to ignorance and fear. Which is the real reason we will never stop believing in them, because we don't want to die and just end.

So there are no honest believers either, because they are merely hedging their bets just in case there is an afterlife, which there is no evidence of.

Well I get told the Bible is full of errors alot and since you pointed it out, can I ask for some specifics of that claim? A chapter and verse, and why its a problem? I would appreciate that, or I can't really address that problem, I have never found a problem in it. I am not trying to use the bible to convince you of Christianity, because I agree the bible has zero meaning for a non-christian, just giving some sort of reference for what I wanted to say, but also it talks exactly to my point which is something. Unless your into some dutch radical criticism like medicine women a few posts back, you believe like all scholars that the historicity of the bible is good, whether you choose to believe in the miracles etc. that is a different story. But to say you don't believe the bible is historical is like me saying I don't think the Roman empire existed. The entire new testament is written while Jews were under the suppression of Rome, and Romans have documents which historically correlate with the Bible.

SO, I have a question for you. If I asked you to create for me an entirely unique body part, or species, or any other thing, that does not look even close to something you find here on Earth such as shape, color, appendage etc. could you? I would challenge that you couldn't believe me I have tried. What this means to me is, humans as able as we are in the arts and such are incapable of creating unique things. Descartes wrote about it in one of his meditations, how even the best artists and painters cannot paint something unique to them, only things they know and have seen. Could you draw an octopus if you had never seen one? No you couldn't. My point is that Humans being incapable of creating unique things, how did we come up with a being as unique and different from ourselves as God. We can't even come up with an image for him that isn't human.

You are referring to something called Pascals wager, you might as well believe just in case right? Well I disagree, and God does too. He wants nothing less than a genuine relationship. I think people who go by that rule, also tend to say "I believe in God, but I am still going to continue to sin and not live my life by anybodies rules, and live my life how I want". A genuine relationship with God though is when I decide that my relationship with him is more important than my own guilty pleasures and I then find pleasure in obeying him, and not in disobeying him. I have my doubts for sure, but I don't attempt to believe in God because I am concerned about what may or may not happen.

Looking forward to you reply! Hopefully I didn't say anything silly in their! Don't want to misrepresent!

 

[Lori_7]

Open a dictionary.
If you don't think god is defined what are you doing calling your experiences god?
Isn't that kind if meaningless then? You could just as well call your experiences 'Astugunkin' then.

You aren't going to provide a description then?

the definition given is really a description and not a definition.

forgive me, i'm pooped. i saw metallica in concert last night. 'twas awesome but i'm draggin' ass today.

let's see...

seems to be beyond constraints
unlimited resources
definitely creator/father...knows more about me than i do
acts in my best interest
entirely honest
develops me
loves unconditionally
never surprised, shocked, or offended
doesn't come into your life uninvited
a fan of music :shrug:
NOT religious
has a good sense of humor (surprised me)
not sympathetic at all...not even a little
discourages fear

 

[Hallam Willis]

"A statement of your belief, not a logical deduction from the facts."

-Nothing wrong with giving my own personal basis for argument so everyone knows who I am and where I am coming from, just being helpful.

Because the idea is appealing to some people.

-Whats appealing the idea of God, or discussing him?

That's honesty, not dishonesty. I don't believe that Aliens have landed on Earth, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.

-Dawkins was being honest there. But what about when he tells people God DOESN'T exist, and that he believes God DOESN'T exist, he is not being completely truthful, because he doesn't actually believe 100% God doesn't exist. That is not representing the facts truthfully.

No, it means that some definitions of God are still theoretically possible, although unnecessary to explain the facts.

-Right, but I'm not trying to explain the facts, just explaining my reasons for his existence despite not "physically" showing himself to us.

No, there are other reasons why he is non-existent. Before the idea of God was popular, people believed in other, equally silly things.

-When did the idea of God become popular?

Many of smartest people in the world were also atheists. In the past, little or nothing was known about the cell, or DNA, or evolution, so it wasn't as ridiculous to believe in God. But today we know better.

- Agreed that many smart people are atheists. For the last part I quote you "No, it means that some definitions of God are still theoretically possible"

What exactly do you know better? You can explain why life works, and how it works, you understand the mechanisms. You don't understand alot of things though, such as how the brain really works, or how the universe became what it is, or where the singularity came from. I have no problems with what science has and can do, but you have made a jump from not knowing to knowing, and automatically assume that rules out a creator. Why?

 

[Enmos]

the definition given is really a description and not a definition.

What's the difference really? A definition of a word offers a description of that what word indicates, is it not?

let's see...

seems to be beyond constraints
unlimited resources
definitely creator/father...knows more about me than i do
acts in my best interest
entirely honest
develops me
loves unconditionally
never surprised, shocked, or offended
doesn't come into your life uninvited
a fan of music :shrug:
NOT religious
has a good sense of humor (surprised me)
not sympathetic at all...not even a little
discourages fear

What are these?
Experiences or conclusions drawn from experiences? I think it's the latter and that won't do. Your conclusions may be wrong. Let's have the actual experiences.