we depend on other other life forms and each other to survive.
Abortion
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we depend on other other life forms and each other to survive.
We don't tend to crawl inside other people's bodies.
If someone were to do that to me, I'd have every right to kill them in self defence.
If someone were to do that to me, I'd have every right to kill them in self defence.
Not when its your child. Not when its the most normal and expected part of nature. A normal and expected direct result of your voluntary actions and informed and deliberate decision.
Do you realize that you sound rather insane?
Again...for the 1,000,000,000th time, a lump of gelatine is not a child.
The fact that it is a part of nature is neither here nor there. It doesn't mean I have to punish myself with a child, any more than if I do something reckless and injure myself, I should punish myself by not cleaning the wound and not having it seen to.
You know, you haven't actually presented an argument other than 'Waaah waaaah, zygotes are sacred because they're human life.'
Oh wait, I'm wrong there. Your other one: 'You had sex like a slut, now you have to be punished with a baby.'
Neither of which are reasonable.
Oh wait, I'm wrong there. Your other one: 'You had sex like a slut, now you have to be punished with a baby.'
Neither of which are reasonable.
And you haven't answered either the rest of that post or my other one.
I don't get why I'm insane and unreasonable because I don't feel a woman should be punished for having consensual sex by being forced to have a child.
It's not like I expect someone to do some sort of magic. Abortion exists. It's easily done. It's not a big deal.
You think a zygote is sacred? Surely you should find a living breathing woman proportionally more so, and consider her wishes, health and autonomy first?
I don't get why I'm insane and unreasonable because I don't feel a woman should be punished for having consensual sex by being forced to have a child.
It's not like I expect someone to do some sort of magic. Abortion exists. It's easily done. It's not a big deal.
You think a zygote is sacred? Surely you should find a living breathing woman proportionally more so, and consider her wishes, health and autonomy first?
I think they're equally valuable, the notion of which you are denying.
The consequence of sex is only a punishment if you say it is, and I don't see why it should require surgery.
I mean how twisted are we when we can't even handle having sex without the aid of pills, gadgets, and surgery?
We are seriously fucked up.
You're screaming "I wanna do what I wanna do, and I don't care if the consequences hurt someone else", which is the mantra of the majority of humans. But some of us don't agree with that mentality or behavior.
You justify your opinion by claiming that the life of a child in the early stages of development isn't as valuable as yours is, and that's the same mentality that nazis have for jews and black people.
Yeah...an embryo can think and feel.
An embryo can do things for others.
An embryo can talk you out of your depression at one in the morning when everyone else has disconnected/gone to bed.
An embryo can contribute to society.
Notice my sarcasm.
No, we're progressing past being mere animals who are helpless to biology.
Wrong.
Why?
Because there isn't a someone else involved in an abortion.
When there is an actual someone at risk, I don't go doing stupid things that might endanger them. That's why I don't leave my hot soup unattended around my brother. That's why I don't drive any more because I have sensory overloads. Actual people are at risk there.
There is no 'someone' at risk during an abortion. Cry and piss your pants all you like about how a z/e/f is sacred because it's a human life. It doesn't make it so.
Jews and black people do not tend to go about taking up residence inside people's abdominal cavities.
Bells
Staff member
Actually, one of the things that one can see with the treatment of blacks and Jews in history was a denial of their rights. In that they were denied the right to decide for themselves and to have autonomy and have the right to decide what they want to do with their bodies. Akin to rabid and overly religious pro-life supporters who demand that women have no say over their own reproductive rights and who want to have a say with what women around the world do with their wombs.
I am surprised with your adoration of children that you don't have a dozen already. In saying that, that is your right. As is your right to decide when you want to have a child or not. What you do not have the right to do is call people sluts or act like you currently are because women want the right to have a choice over their reproduction. Tell me, do you weep each month when you menstruate and you realise that a potential life has just been flushed down the toilet? Do you ban your other half from masturbating lest he and you lose that potential human life? I would imagine the answer to that is no.
In short Lori, VI's uterus is her business as my uterus is my own and yours is your own. Seriously Lori, get a grip on yourself. You disagree with abortion? Then never, ever have one. But do not think for a second that your opinion over my uterus or VI's actually matter to either of us. You are zero in that equation.
Concentrate on your own womb and what goes on inside of it and leave the wombs of other women alone.
bells, if you hadn't noticed this is a debate forum, and the thread is demonstrating opinions about abortion. i am expressing my opinion and have just as much of a right to as you or VI or anyone else. i don't tell anyone what to do with their wombs. i, unlike an abortionist, don't mess with women's wombs. my opinion is based in personal experience. this isn't political to me, this is personal. people are going to do what they're going to do and frankly, i'm ok with that. but we all reap the consequences together. which is entirely a foreign concept to abortion...it's one of the most selfish acts that i don't have to imagine; i know first hand.
i don't demonstrate hate outside abortion clinics, nor do i demonstrate hate to anyone who has one, or whose opinion disagrees with mine. but if someone solicits my opinion, i'm honest about it, i have a right to it, and it's founded in experience.
you want to talk about rights?
an abortion ends the life of a unique individual on this earth. a person who started out in this life the same exact way you did...in a womb. a person with an unique identity and therefore a unique experience that will never again be replicated in this world. and that's not the bible talking...that's dna. god puts it this way when he says, "i knew you before i formed you in the womb".
so who the hell are you to deny that person a future? a right to life? a mother?
did you do all of those things when you were in the womb or did your mother protect your right to do those things now, in a later developmental stage?
yes, and we're progressing to destroy our environment and each other. that's great.
and i understand that you've progressed to jumping and swinging around on stuff like a monkey. impressive.
wrong. you're someone, and you started out in someone else's womb.
nobody's crying or pissing their pants here but you. and apparently, every time you have sex, you are putting the life of a potential fellow human being at risk. and imo, that is stupid.
Jews and black people do not tend to go about taking up residence inside people's abdominal cavities.
but babies do, and it will be your actions that put it there.
Who the hell am I to decide what happens to my own body?
Why why why do you keep calling the conceptus a person?
And as for a mother...I'm about as motherly as a scorpion that just got its ovaries removed. Any child I carried to term would be better off being denied a mother. I have a baby; she has black fur and gold eyes. I don't want a real one.
That was SARCASM...Damn, I actually openly said it was sarcasm and you're taking me up on it anyway.
Yes she did. Because she WANTED me. Because she CHOSE to have me. That's how it should be.
Of course humans sometimes misuse their intelligence and do damage. I fail to see how birth control and abortion constitute such misuse.
You mean parkour? Yeah. And I need my tight agile body for that. So any conceptus of mine is going up a vacuum device. Deal with it.
I wasn't a someone when I was conceived. I wasn't a someone at month 2 or 3. It's nice to think of an embryo as cute and precious but that's hardly a comfort to, say, a 16 year old whose condom ruptured, or a married woman who already has 6 kids.
If you want to know the truth, I'm actually laughing as I type this.
I'm starting to struggle to take you seriously.
That's a contradiction in terms, if there's no human being only the potential to make one, how can anyone be at risk?
It doesn't mean I have to punish myself by keeping it any more than I should punish myself by not cleaning a wound if I injure myself.
Again...where the fuck is your reasoning?
You seem to be unable to get over this idea of even a zygote as a "person".
So it has a unique genome. So what? Don't we all. You care about some MOLECULES more than about the woman and her life and her wishes? That is way out of any sort of rational perspective.
You seem to be unable to get over this idea of even a zygote as a "person".
So it has a unique genome. So what? Don't we all. You care about some MOLECULES more than about the woman and her life and her wishes? That is way out of any sort of rational perspective.
lori,
I have a question for you if a woman gets pregnant and the fetus or better yet what visceral said "blob of goo" is a person and puts the mothers life at risk. what do you do?
A. Abort the baby and save the mothers life
B. Kill the mom and save the "blob of goo" since in your rational is a person
C. Let the birth continue risking killing both the mom and the fetus
Pick a letter and explain why please
I have a question for you if a woman gets pregnant and the fetus or better yet what visceral said "blob of goo" is a person and puts the mothers life at risk. what do you do?
A. Abort the baby and save the mothers life
B. Kill the mom and save the "blob of goo" since in your rational is a person
C. Let the birth continue risking killing both the mom and the fetus
Pick a letter and explain why please
I bet she'll pick B. Since caring about your own life is 'selfish' and all.
actually from your rationalistic view, even the mom is a bunch of molecules, so what gives?
Can you clarify? A and B indicate its one or the other and C indicates that its both.
Also, there is a point until if the mom dies the baby dies too because there's no other way to sustain it outside her body.
Can you give a more specific example where this might be the case? I mean, premature babies are born frequently and develop just fine.
EXACTLY.
every bit of inherent identity a human has is just as present in the womb as it is outside the womb. the only difference is time. the only difference is age. the only difference is normal human growth and development. and it IS human. it's not like it's going to turn into a fish or a tree. it's identity as a particular and unique human being is already established.
VI and others can rationalize drawing their arbitrary lines just about anywhere. VI wants to draw it at sentience and independence, or at the capability to help others or contribute. well, that old fart with alzheimer's sitting drooling in a nursing home isn't really in tune with what's going on anymore, is completely dependent, and is just costing us a bunch of money, time, and effort, so let's off him. and as someone who seemingly boasts that they would hate their own child surely she knows that children are whiney and dependent and needy, and they're not as intelligent and productive as adults, so let's off them too.
fact is, that a fetus is a normal stage of human development just as much as infancy, childhood, puberty, adulthood, and old age. it starts with conception and it ends with death.
you decide whether or not you have sex don't you? who the hell are you to decide what happens to someone else's body?
because all you need to be a person is the correct dna.
you're not a cat, and what you've said about yourself isn't anything to be proud of. but there are a lot of people who can't have children who would like to adopt.
she CHOSE to have you when she conceived you because that's when you came into existence in the flesh. then i suppose she CHOSE whether or not she would kill you, or give birth to you.
lots of people don't have the vision.
you know, i heard that eating small children actually increases your body's strength and agility.
you're wrong and you don't care.
well because if the potential is realized, then that will be the human at risk, apparently.
and what about potential? everybody has it if they have a future. a fetus actually has more potential than you do. but if you kill someone, you take that potential away.
if you equate having sex as injuring yourself, then don't do it (dummy).
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