Abortion

[lightgigantic]

You are not answering my question. There is always lust involved. If there is no lust there is no sex, either that or it is a very unhealthy relationship.

at the risk of quoting scripture (2nd chapter gita)

While contemplating the objects of the senses, a person develops attachment for them, and from such attachment lust develops, and from lust anger arises.
From anger, complete delusion arises, and from delusion bewilderment of memory. When memory is bewildered, intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost one falls down again into the material pool.

Its the nature of lust that it demands way more than it can ever really give.
Sex doesn't have to necessarily be governed by such an attitude ... especially if one has recourse to issues of procreation ... which is after all, the natural consequence of it (which in turn leads on to looking at the attitude that governs the desire to have children ... as you so adroitly pointed out)

 

[Enmos]

at the risk of quoting scripture (2nd chapter gita)

While contemplating the objects of the senses, a person develops attachment for them, and from such attachment lust develops, and from lust anger arises.
From anger, complete delusion arises, and from delusion bewilderment of memory. When memory is bewildered, intelligence is lost, and when intelligence is lost one falls down again into the material pool.

Its the nature of lust that it demands way more than it can ever really give.
Sex doesn't have to necessarily be governed by such an attitude ... especially if one has recourse to issues of procreation ... which is after all, the natural consequence of it (which in turn leads on to looking at the attitude that governs the desire to have children ... as you so adroitly pointed out)

If you actually practice this I pity you.

Show that anger arises from lust.
Show that complete delusion arises from anger.

I have to go now, I'll check back later.

 

[lightgigantic]

If you actually practice this I pity you.

misery loves company, eh?

Show that anger arises from lust.
Show that complete delusion arises from anger.

I have to go now, I'll check back later.

The whole world is busy trying to solve the mammoth head aches they cause themselves by attempting to satisfy lust.

The translation for delusion is "perfect illusion". If you've ever tried to talk sense into an angry person, you wouldn't need to ask

 

[visceral_instinct]

i'm arguing this from an idealist perspective. personally, i would want to live in a world where having a child is always a blessing. where people who weren't willing to mate didn't have sex, and a society and culture that supported that. i think it would be good for everyone. but, that would be very far from our current society and culture wouldn't that?

i think the fact that we have to resort to latex shields on our genitals, and devices, and pills, and surgeries to be able to cope with procreation indicates that there is something very wrong with us.

Go puke, Lori. This idea about children being always a blessing and sex only for having bay-beeeeeeeees is just your own opinion. You have the right to your own opinion. You don't have the right to dress it up as morality and force it in everyone else's faces.

I'm something of an idealist myself. In my ideal world, there would be perfect birth control, and no one would ever be in a position where they would need an abortion. Society would approve of consensual sex in the context of caring and respect (no, I did not say long term relationships), because it is a beautiful act where two human beings give and receive pleasure.

Having a baby is a big deal, Lori. It should only ever be done when you 100% WANT the child and you are 100% ready to take care of it. Not because you are 'taking responsibility' for your mistake. Not because you're punishing yourself for a condom breaking, or your being one of the 0.5% whose surgical sterilization doesn't work. Not because you don't want the child but you're willing to throw away your life to look after it never the less.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

...punishment for making bad decisions is metered out by god...

IOW its not inevitable if you don't make the choice.

There's no need to assign it as god's version of free will

Thats just free will
:shrug:

God doesn't make your decisions for you

God created the initial conditions which made the choises we make inevitable... so how does God not bare responsibility for the bad choises we make... much less punish us for those bad choises.???

 

[Enmos]

misery loves company, eh?

Yea, just keep telling yourself that

The whole world is busy trying to solve the mammoth head aches they cause themselves by attempting to satisfy lust.

The translation for delusion is "perfect illusion". If you've ever tried to talk sense into an angry person, you wouldn't need to ask

You haven't shown anything. You know, you put more work into not answering questions than it would take to just answer them.

 

[Bells]

using contraceptives (at least one's that act as barriers) is not considered sinful because it kills sperms or eggs. It simply spoils the act of sex by relegating it to the realm of gross gratification, which is part of the issue with lust, which in turn affects one's intelligence and so on.

Yes. Because god forbid anyone has sex for pleasure or actually enjoys sex or gets some.. *gasp* gratification *gasp* from it. Burn in hell anyone who gets gratification out of sex.. BURN!!

IOW its not like its some sort of felony.

.......

Its an act that retards the consciousness.

Wait, what?

Of course not everyone will appreciate that, but then we don't live in a society that entertains much ambition or scope beyond the animal propensities.

Oh no.

I appreciate it. You made me laugh out loud.

In short though, the use of contraceptives is something a little different from abortion, so I don't know if you ant to open up this can of worms here.
At least with contraceptives one is not directly frustrating the attempts of a living entity to take birth in this world

So which is better for you? Preventing life from forming or destroying life via an abortion. Decisions decisions..

more the intention of how god intended.

So don't masturbate?

Of course its very clear that many people have intentions to use them in other ways, but that simply paves the way for taking birth in the animal species.

Tell me, what other ways are there when one considers one's sexual bodily fluids? Granted, there was one particular movie where it was accidently used as hair gel, but I am pretty sure that for the greater majority of people, it's used pretty much in only one thing.

 

[Anarcho Union]

wow, this got big fast

 

[lightgigantic]

God created the initial conditions which made the choises we make inevitable... so how does God not bare responsibility for the bad choises we make... much less punish us for those bad choises.???

He didn't make it inevitable for us to experience these conditions. The default position is not illusion, much like the default position for the ordinary citizen is not the prison.

 

[lightgigantic]

Yea, just keep telling yourself that

the resolution to remain steadfast in the grip of bodily pursuits also requires a sympathetic ear

You haven't shown anything. You know, you put more work into not answering questions than it would take to just answer them.

eg of world problem - excessive use of resources for insignificant results (aka lust)

as for anger being a state that clouds a sense of reality, just pick up any book on interpersonal communication

:shrug:

 

[lightgigantic]

Yes. Because god forbid anyone has sex for pleasure or actually enjoys sex or gets some.. *gasp* gratification *gasp* from it. Burn in hell anyone who gets gratification out of sex.. BURN!!

its more that if that's the pinnacle of pleasure, you're wasting your time in the human form of life (aside from the concomitant issues of abortion and unwanted progeny that arise from such a modus operandi)


.......

Wait, what?


Oh no.

I appreciate it. You made me laugh out loud.

I'm not surprised.
I mean you're hardly green bamboo these days, are you?

So which is better for you? Preventing life from forming or destroying life via an abortion. Decisions decisions..

Given that the consciousness that drives such acts is identical, it doesn't make too much difference (although there is the argument that the ability to recognize life in the womb requires at least a higher grade of it)

So don't masturbate?

I know you find these subjects difficult ....

Tell me, what other ways are there when one considers one's sexual bodily fluids? Granted, there was one particular movie where it was accidently used as hair gel, but I am pretty sure that for the greater majority of people, it's used pretty much in only one thing.

for procreation?
I doubt it ....

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
God created the initial conditions which made the choises we make inevitable... so how does God not bare responsibility for the bad choises we make... much less punish us for those bad choises.???

He didn't make it inevitable for us to experience these conditions.

God knew he created humans wit the particular moral character that he chose to give us... that all of us woud sin... an many of us woud wind up in hell... but aparently thats what God wanted sinse thats the way he created us... so why does God punish us for behavin esactly the way he created us to behave.???

 

[mordea]

That's a first.

So you're not going to explain the relevance of the two scenarios you put forward? OK then, I'll just disregard them as irrelevant.

I know you're excited by the prospect,

Ad hominem.

but there's this little thing called consent and capacity to give consent. Now, do you think a 3 year old can consent to sex with an adult?

More so than a fetus can to being terminated.

Excuse me while I have a quiet chuckle to myself at the notion of sophistication in pro-lifer's.

Indeed, go ahead and chuckle. Because it's far to hard to entertain the notion that perhaps your opponents have beliefs more complex than you would like misattribute to them.

Pro-life only up to a point..

Just like you are only pro-choice up to a point?!

Alert, alert! Bells just missed the clue train! Clue train departing, absent Bells.

Women are often excused in the murder of their newborns if they suffer from post natal depression, for example.

Yes, women are often excused of crimes in our sexist society. They are excused from killing their retarded children and shooting thelr sleeping husbands in the back. That doesn't make such a thing just.

But I do not equate murdering a born child as being akin to an abortion at 12 weeks.

OK

If it was somehow the same, then women would have to report each time they had their periods, just in case they naturally aborted if they were a few weeks late.

Why?

You have admitted yourself, a 12 week old foetus is not the same as a born infant.

Yes. Nor is a born infant the same as a teenager, who is not the same as an adult in their prime, who is not the same as an elder.

Yet you seem to be implying that a 12 week old foetus should have the same rights as a born infant in protection from death. It does not work that way.

I am aware that it doesn't work that way. That's exactly what I find so hypocritical in today's society.

While it is in the mother's womb and not viable, the mother has the right to a choice.

She shouldn't have the choice to terminate a human life without its consent.

But as you have stated, they are not the same.

And as I have pointed out many time, *physiological and psychological differences exist between all human developmental stages*.

Who should have more protection in your opinion? A 12 week old foetus or a born child?

They should have equal protection to life.

Keep in mind that if a 12 week old foetus is given the same protection as a born child, then an investigation would have to be launched if the mother naturally aborted it and she could face a possible murder charge as a result of that miscarriage.

No, it wouldn't. That's just scare-mongering on your behalf.

You did make a distinction.

I acknowledged that there were differences between them. However, as I must have stated half a dozen times, I don't feel such differences should have a bearing on the individual's right to life.

Oh no, I have wrapped my head around it.

Finally.

But I find it interesting that you try to wrangle your way around it.

Wrangle my way around it? For fucks sake, I've expressed my position in a ver clear and concise manner about *six* times now.

No. Really?

Really. The genetic information held by a 2 month old fetus is pretty much the same as that held by it when it is an 80 year old elder. I just wanted to check that you were aware of this, since you sort of stated the exact opposite in your previous post.

I am merely asking you a question. How is a 12 week old foetus not the same type of human as an 80 year old?

*sigh*

This is just pitiful. I have not.

You have so.

Ahh. So a 12 week old foetus is just as human as a newborn?

*sigh*

 

[siledre]

I actually don't have an opinion on this, I'm a guy who will never procreate so I don't have to worry about this. Ever.

 

[lightgigantic]

God knew he created humans wit the particular moral character that he chose to give us... that all of us woud sin... an many of us woud wind up in hell... but aparently thats what God wanted sinse thats the way he created us... so why does God punish us for behavin esactly the way he created us to behave.???

once again, just as the default position is not the jail and just as the default position in the matrix is not dreaming away in some virtual world, the default position is not taking birth in the material world.
ok?

 

[visceral_instinct]

So mordea, you don't get that a nonsentient lump shouldn't get the same rights as a person??

 

[lightgigantic]

So mordea, you don't get that a nonsentient lump shouldn't get the same rights as a person??

so VI, you don't get that a nonsentient lump cannot develop into a person?

 

[cluelusshusbund]

once again, just as the default position is not the jail and just as the default position in the matrix is not dreaming away in some virtual world, the default position is not taking birth in the material world.
ok?

Huh :shrug:

Anyhow... God intentionaly created us in such a way which made it inevitable that millions(?) of children woud be tortured/raped/murdered... do you thank it was necesary that God created us in that way.???

 

[visceral_instinct]

so VI, you don't get that a nonsentient lump cannot develop into a person?

Wrong. A nonsentient lump becomes something sentient, at some point.

And it doesn't give said lump the right to another's body.

 

[lightgigantic]

Huh :shrug:

Anyhow... God intentionaly created us in such a way which made it inevitable that millions(?) of children woud be tortured/raped/murdered... do you thank it was necesary that God created us in that way.???

much in the same way that those who ordain the construction of maximum security jails make it inevitable that they house murderers and rapists.
:shrug:
(let me know when it sinks in)