Abortion

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
“ So what causes us to desire to imitate God... to the pont of desidin who shall live or dye... such as killin an unborned baby.??? ”

As to what causes one to make that decision in the first place, if we are engineered with free will, I think it should be obvious

So bein engineered wit free will makes it inevitable that som people will make bad choises... which gets bak to my queston... why does God punish people for makin bad choises sinse ther bad choises was inevitable dew to the way they was created.???

I don't consider free will a defect.
Do you?

I guess that depends... whats you'r definition of "free will".???

 

[lightgigantic]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
“ So what causes us to desire to imitate God... to the pont of desidin who shall live or dye... such as killin an unborned baby.??? ”




So bein engineered wit free will makes it inevitable that som people will make bad choises... which gets bak to my queston... why does God punish people for makin bad choises sinse ther bad choises was inevitable dew to the way they was created.???

If you are made with free will, you are made with an innate sense of responsibility for one's self.

IOW free will where one cannot make bad choices or cannot be held responsible for one's choices is not free will
:shrug:

I guess that depends... whats you'r definition of "free will".???

see above
so do you think free will is a defect?

 

[Bells]

OH COME ON! do you ever leave your house? you don't know a bevy of women who've had an abortion? take your own statistical sampling. everybody got an excuse...a tale of woe. boo hoo.

I know several women who have had abortions. Many of whom in my own family.

It is easy to make light of their reasons for your own comfort. To them, their reasons were valid. And that is enough.

But please, provide some statistics for your claims.

because it's true. "you pro-abortionists" always call upon the most detrimental tale or life and death situation to make an argument, and the fact is, that those situations are NOT the rationale for most abortions.

I am pro-choice. I don't know anyone who is pro-abortionist. That is what you cannot seem to grasp.

having a child is a blessing. *shock/horror* regardless of circumstance. after all, there are lots of people like me in the world who give a shit about women in hardship. but granted, it's easier to just kill the baby than to give a shit about that.

In light of your beliefs, I will assume that you have never had an abortion and have over a dozen children?

And for some women, having a child is not a blessing. You cannot foist your own personal beliefs upon the reproductive systems of other women. You have no right to do so.

If you gave a shit about women in hardship, you would not make light of their plight nor refer to their reasons for wanting an abortion as a mere "excuse" for what you deem as their irresponsibility.

no, there's god and fate, and if you think for one second that the human race can go about doing the hideous things it does without consequence, think again.

One of the most hideous things that humans can do is to force others to abide by their personal beliefs - ie, to be dictated by others to the extent that people no longer have rights over their own reproduction.

thank you for expounding upon the point i'm making. humanity and society, for the most part, are failures in this day and age. and yes, i believe that those who don't believe in something better will stay in this hell forever. and apparently be very happy here. killing their offspring because it gets in the way of making money and procuring stuff.

The solution for you is simple. Never have an abortion.

But it is not for you to demand the same from other people.

For example, do you believe you have a claim over my uterus and what I do with it? If I go to hell because I believe that women should have the right to choose when they have a child, what concern is it of yours? What business is it of yours what choices other women make?

 

[cluelusshusbund]

If you are made with free will, you are made with an innate sense of responsibility for one's self.

IOW free will where one cannot make bad choices or cannot be held responsible for one's choices is not free will

do you think free will is a defect?

“ I guess that depends... whats you'r definition of "free will".??? ”

see above
so do you think free will is a defect?

Yes i woud label Gods free-will design (which makes goin to hell inevitable) as defective... which gets bak to my queston... why does God punish people for makin bad choises when ther bad choises was inevitable dew to the way they was designed.???

 

[lightgigantic]

“ I guess that depends... whats you'r definition of "free will".??? ”

here it is


IOW free will where one cannot make bad choices or cannot be held responsible for one's choices is not free will

Yes i woud label Gods free-will design (which makes goin to hell inevitable) as defective... which gets bak to my queston... why does God punish people for makin bad choises when ther bad choises was inevitable dew to the way they was designed.???

do you think its also inevitable for people to go to jail on charges of first degree murder?

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
“ Yes i woud label Gods free-will design (which makes goin to hell inevitable) as defective... which gets bak to my queston... why does God punish people for makin bad choises when ther bad choises was inevitable dew to the way they was designed.??? ”

do you think its also inevitable for people to go to jail on charges of first degree murder?

Well they normaly do if convicted... but bak to my queston:::

"why does God punish people for makin bad choises when ther bad choises was inevitable dew to the way they was designed (by God).???”

 

[lightgigantic]

Originally Posted by cluelusshusbund
“ Yes i woud label Gods free-will design (which makes goin to hell inevitable) as defective... which gets bak to my queston... why does God punish people for makin bad choises when ther bad choises was inevitable dew to the way they was designed.??? ”



Well they normaly do if convicted... but bak to my queston:::

"why does God punish people for makin bad choises when ther bad choises was inevitable dew to the way they was designed (by God).???”

much like first degree murder convictions are only inevitable for persons who make the choice to commit first degree murder, punishment for making bad decisions is metered out by god along similar lines.

IOW its not inevitable if you don't make the choice.

There's no need to assign it as god's version of free will

Thats just free will
:shrug:

God doesn't make your decisions for you

 

[James R]

lightgigantic:

Then I guess that leaves you to explain why one can't achieve practically the same results by a lot simpler method - namely controlling one's self

creating an artificial method (namely killing life) to prevent procreation is a no no

May I ask you some questions?

1. Are you, or were you in the past, Catholic?

2. Do you believe, ideally, that people should only have sex when they wish to procreate?

3. Why is using an artificial method to prevent procreation a no no?

4. Every day, the male testes produce millions of sperm cells. Every day (or every few days), all of those millions die. If the male happens to have sex, then at best nine hundred and ninety-nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety-nine out of the million sperm will die, while one may live. And even something like 2/3 of fertilised eggs end in spontaneous abortion.

Do you think that every sperm cell that dies is a sin against God? If not, why is it a sin to deliberately eliminate that last 1 in a million chance?

5. Does the sin against God lie in killing sperm cells (which are not fully human, since they contain only half a set of genes), or in not using your genitals as God intended, or something else?

 

[lightgigantic]

lightgigantic:





May I ask you some questions?

1. Are you, or were you in the past, Catholic?

no

2. Do you believe, ideally, that people should only have sex when they wish to procreate?

ideally, yes

3. Why is using an artificial method to prevent procreation a no no?

aside from the fact that anything done artificial tends to fail (and give us things like unwanted pregnancies or even children), its the nature of doing things artificially that you mess up what things are really there for

4. Every day, the male testes produce millions of sperm cells. Every day (or every few days), all of those millions die. If the male happens to have sex, then at best nine hundred and ninety-nine thousand, nine hundred and ninety-nine out of the million sperm will die, while one may live. And even something like 2/3 of fertilised eggs end in spontaneous abortion.

Do you think that every sperm cell that dies is a sin against God? If not, why is it a sin to deliberately eliminate that last 1 in a million chance?

using contraceptives (at least one's that act as barriers) is not considered sinful because it kills sperms or eggs. It simply spoils the act of sex by relegating it to the realm of gross gratification, which is part of the issue with lust, which in turn affects one's intelligence and so on.
IOW its not like its some sort of felony.
Its an act that retards the consciousness.
Of course not everyone will appreciate that, but then we don't live in a society that entertains much ambition or scope beyond the animal propensities.

In short though, the use of contraceptives is something a little different from abortion, so I don't know if you ant to open up this can of worms here.
At least with contraceptives one is not directly frustrating the attempts of a living entity to take birth in this world

5. Does the sin against God lie in killing sperm cells (which are not fully human, since they contain only half a set of genes), or in not using your genitals as God intended, or something else?

more the intention of how god intended.

Of course its very clear that many people have intentions to use them in other ways, but that simply paves the way for taking birth in the animal species.
(if there was ever the sex Olympics monkeys and pigeons would beat humans no sweat)

IOW its the nature of taking birth in this world that we follow our desires (as well as what we deserve) in terms of taking birth in the womb of a particular mother ... so a spiritual person is careful and introspective of their desires ... whereas a materialistic person cannot distinguish between their self and their desires, so for the most part they remain invisible to them

 

[Enmos]

using contraceptives [..] affects one's intelligence..

Its an act that retards the consciousness.

LOL! Wtf? Are you serious? Lets see your sources..

 

[lightgigantic]

LOL! Wtf? Are you serious? Lets see your sources..

If you look at the original reference ...

using contraceptives (at least one's that act as barriers) is not considered sinful because it kills sperms or eggs. It simply spoils the act of sex by relegating it to the realm of gross gratification, which is part of the issue with lust, which in turn affects one's intelligence and so on.
IOW its not like its some sort of felony.
Its an act that retards the consciousness.
Of course not everyone will appreciate that, but then we don't live in a society that entertains much ambition or scope beyond the animal propensities.

You understand I am not talking about an impaired ability to get a tertiary degree or something?
Yes?

 

[Enmos]

If you look at the original reference ...


You understand I am not talking about an impaired ability to get a tertiary degree or something?
Yes?

So what are you talking about?

 

[lightgigantic]

So what are you talking about?

that consciousness (or intelligence that directs the self in lieu of one's world perspective) has grander issues that can't manifest as long as one is under the grip of vice (lust, wrath, anger, greed, envy, avarice, etc)

 

[Enmos]

that consciousness (or intelligence that directs the self in lieu of one's world perspective) has grander issues that can't manifest as long as one is under the grip of vice (lust, wrath, anger, greed, envy, avarice, etc)

And how is that relevant to just having sex using contraceptives and not to sex in general (assuming for a moment that it's not just bullshit)?

 

[lightgigantic]

And how is that relevant to just having sex using contraceptives and not to sex in general (assuming for a moment that it's not just bullshit)?

One solely involves the pursuit of one's own pleasure (or perhaps the pleasure of another, if one happens to be a bit more magnanimous or if one performs it for a livelihood or something)

The other involves the intention of taking it to its full course with the acceptance of the associated duties (hopefully ... I mean it could also be that one is too screwed up on drugs and alcohol to bother with a contraceptive)

So despite the act being more or less the same, there is a vast difference between the intelligences behind them.

 

[Enmos]

One solely involves the pursuit of one's own pleasure (or perhaps the pleasure of another, if one happens to be a bit more magnanimous or if one performs it for a livelihood or something)

The other involves the intention of taking it to its full course with the acceptance of the associated duties (hopefully ... I mean it could also be that one is too screwed up on drugs and alcohol to bother with a contraceptive)

So despite the act being more or less the same, there is a vast difference between the intelligences behind them.

Nonsense. Are you saying that having unprotected sex doesn't involve lust?
The only difference is that one isn't averse (at least) to having a baby as a result (but not as a rule, lots of people still practice unprotected sex and they don't have to be drunk or doped up either), while the other is.
The lust is the same.

 

[lightgigantic]

Nonsense. Are you saying that having sex in order to make a baby doesn't involve lust?

Sure it can.

My point is that sex with contraceptives is just that and only that- namely an attempt to cultivate it.

Sex with out it is what usually contributes to one's progress as an adult.

Maybe I should have said

So despite the act being more or less the same, there is a vast difference between the (potential) intelligences behind them.

 

[Enmos]

How does that cancel out the lust involved?

 

[lightgigantic]

How does that cancel out the lust involved?

Sure there are other criteria, but at the moment I am just trying to establish how sex with contraceptives isn't even in the game

 

[Enmos]

Sure there are other criteria, but at the moment I am just trying to establish how sex with contraceptives isn't even in the game

You are not answering my question. There is always lust involved. If there is no lust there is no sex, either that or it is a very unhealthy relationship.