a question about the Tawhid

[Doomdayx]

you mullah guys, now clean up your dirt answering the questions you created.

mullah bruce wayne said, it wasn't him but god limited the quran into arabic and he believed it is a limited book, then what is your answer to path's question within the framework of your insertion?

Originally Posted by path
why was that message restricted to arabic if it was a message for ALL mankind from a deity who is All knowing and all powerful. The arguments that you need to learn arabic or it was done to keep it pure just don't address this question, remember allah is all powerful etc..

mullah surenderer said, "being someone who knows Arabic I know I can go to any bookstore and pick up an English Koran and read it and know that it doesnt say the same thing as an Arabic one". so what is your answer to

Originally Posted by robtex
The question is, for those of us who don't read arabic and are not planning to learn it, can we truely understand the Islamic relgion and if not are the non-arabic reading, speaking Muslims true muslims?

 

[Doomdayx]

i also wonder why you are so tolerant with translating the name allah into god without hesitation about the difference in their meaning, but not the rest of the quran!

 

[Doomdayx]

mullah guys! where are your answers to these questions ?

do you think that the sytem of Allah and the laws or whatever you call them, which we are informed that operates in life and we are all subject to, did not exist before the revelation of the Koran to RasulAllah? [/QUOTE]

Did the laws the Koran informs us exist befroe its communication in Arabic? -since mohammed (pbuh) was not given any written material, then what was he asked to read by iqra in the beginning?[/QUOTE]

 

[surenderer]

first, do not take refugee in throwing your slanderings on me all the time. i can understand arabic, though i am not native. you do not know me. what kind of a morality you have that you try to base your insertions on your lies about me all the time when you do not have an answer?
is it so difficult for you to talk honesly without jumping into judgments and slanderings about matters you are without any knowledge at all? is this wat you understood of muslimism?

[43.3] Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you may understand.
why do you try to push the discussion toward a point of accusing your opponent with saying the quran is wrong? any idiot with the smallest mind would not expect a muslim to say that. who are you serving, the satan?
you asked if we are claiming that we have knowledge other than what is written in the quran.
cannot you ask instead that you may have interpretation other than what is meant in the quran? are you so narrow minded to believe that you never make a mistake but the others?
does not the quran say that every rasul communicated with the tongue of their people? why do you always turn a blind eye to this and to the time and conditions when a verse is revealed? any idiot would not expect the quran be revealed in another tongue if the time and conditions then are considered! any idiot would not expect the quran be communicated in english to an arabic speaking people or it be communicated in more than one language simultaneously like a game?
why do you try to ban others from learning the truths?



you are mullah guys standing between non arabic speaking people and islam to ban others from turning to the universal religion of peace and learning the realities for themselves.
as a habit you are always cutting and pasting quran verses without the minutest thought involved in about what is meant with them. you stick to their verbalism. just be honest, you are not learning something new from reading the verses but trying to find some of them to use to serve you to prove you, you are right anytime.



this shows that you are not only unable to understand the quran verses truly, but also unable to understand what your words come to mean! how can one become a muslim without having a chance to understand the quran?
you mullah guys, u are not saying your words are your understanding of the quran, you are saying yours is what the quran says, so trying to turn the universal religion of peace into one of the hundreds of tribal religions in the world because of our ignorance.

Doom,
Dang maybe you dont understand English either.......I only assumed you dont understand Arabic because you and Sufi were asked many times and you always ducked the question. What lies have I told about you? You take great offense to the fact that I say (as do over a billion other Muslims) that to avoid confusion a muslim should learn Arabic thus read the text of the Koran the way it was revealed. I have also shown you where the Koran states that the Koran was sent in Arabic to avoid confusion. Now why would the upset anyone who knows Arabic? Read my posts again and relax....Im not saying that Muslims who dont know Arabic are bad Muslims(i have said this several times) but what I am saying is that there is a difference between an Arabic Koran and a English one.....Go to the bookstore....why do most Koran's not in English say "Interpetation of the Koran" or "Inspired by the Koran" etc....In my opinion an English Koran is a gateway to learning Islam. If you are Muslim the when you go to Juma is it inm Arabic or English? But this conversation is kinda silly actually because if you do know Arabic( and I will assume you do because we know what the Prophet pbuh said about liars) then you know the difference between an Arabic Koran and a English one....Relax brother I never said you were a Bad Muslim. oh yea I see you have taken to calling me a "Mullah" ....now is that how you ask for respect?

 

[surenderer]

i also wonder why you are so tolerant with translating the name allah into god without hesitation about the difference in their meaning, but not the rest of the quran!

I have allready posted that I used the word "God" so that I dont alienate any non-muslim's posts that I answer to. When I quote the Koran however I always use Allah...Alotta people on these boards think there is a difference between "Allah" and what they call "God" I have since gone to saying Creator recently (cheack my posts)

 

[surenderer]

you mullah guys, now clean up your dirt answering the questions you created.

mullah bruce wayne said, it wasn't him but god limited the quran into arabic and he believed it is a limited book, then what is your answer to path's question within the framework of your insertion?


mullah surenderer said, "being someone who knows Arabic I know I can go to any bookstore and pick up an English Koran and read it and know that it doesnt say the same thing as an Arabic one". so what is your answer to

I allready answered that question.....Whats with the Mullah term?......Have I called you Kahfir?

 

[surenderer]

mullah guys! where are your answers to these questions ?

do you think that the sytem of Allah and the laws or whatever you call them, which we are informed that operates in life and we are all subject to, did not exist before the revelation of the Koran to RasulAllah?

Did the laws the Koran informs us exist befroe its communication in Arabic? -since mohammed (pbuh) was not given any written material, then what was he asked to read by iqra in the beginning?[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]




Sigh.....of course the Creator's Laws existed before they were given to the Prophet(pbuh) but how do you know them? From the Bible? nope...Torah? nope? Veda's? nope...... I look at it like this......I want to know what the Creator's message was to us in its Authentic form so I dont have to worry about translations (since you know Arabic you should know that an English Koran and a Arabic one arent 100% the same)


peace to you

 

[skywalker]

That is exactly where xians F$cked up their Bible. They translated one after another and in the end they lost every thing, all they got now is the message and word of PAUL instead of word of Jesus. I am just wondering did Bible come in 14 languages orignally? or veda? or Quran? Is this God's job to setup a printing press somewhere so one can get a copy of his choice? LOL

They all suppose to come in a single language, when you translate something it will lose its orginal meaning you will get the same message more or less, but Quran is not like Bible where you can find 60 editions and different versions from PG13 to Rated R.

There is no problem in Reading Quran in any languge, as long as you do not try to add or subtract anything from it. The end results are for Allah/God for to decide.

 

[skywalker]

i also wonder why you are so tolerant with translating the name allah into god without hesitation about the difference in their meaning, but not the rest of the quran!

Not sure about if any one got any problems with this first, I have never come across any one with this issue. By the way why are they not tolerant to this word? As long as it is Singular it fits the meaning. Allah Can be translated as God but not gods or Gods. :bugeye:



I have to admit that lots of muslims out there think that they own the religion and do change it to their tribal terms... very sad. But that is their individual choice and they will be held responsible for that.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The audience then were the arabs who can understand only arabic.

The quran was not corrupt not because it is in arabic, but because of the vigilance & believing Allah's assurance that he would protect the quran.

Learing quran in arabic is preferred; but that does not give any superiority over non-arabs in understanding what Allah is telling. If this is not correct then i have to agree with path that Allah belongs to arabs.

I am repeating myself here, I have already adressed this before. One doesný need to understand the Arabic to be able to understand Arabic.

But to perform an in-depth exegesis, one surely need the language of Arabic. For instance, Once sufi claimed that "Laa Illaha Illa Llah" means: ther is no god. there is Allah" or something similar. I said it meant "there is no God, excepgt Allah". Now in order to argue that point we must grasp Arabic, What do you think everneo?

For that kind of exegesis, one needs a very deep grasp over Arabic, years of study of the language then of the tradition of Muhammad -peace be upon him- to put it in contest. One doesn't interpret the bible based on the chinese translation but on the original text.

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

i also wonder why you are so tolerant with translating the name allah into god without hesitation about the difference in their meaning, but not the rest of the quran!

I already explained why. I also refer you to Skywalker's comment.

And here is more.

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

114.001
YUSUFALI: Say: I seek refuge with the Lord and Cherisher of Mankind,
PICKTHAL: Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of mankind,
SHAKIR: Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of men,

114.002
YUSUFALI: The King (or Ruler) of Mankind,
PICKTHAL: The King of mankind,
SHAKIR: The King of men,

114.003
YUSUFALI: The god (or judge) of Mankind,-
PICKTHAL: The god of mankind,
SHAKIR: The god of men,

114.004
YUSUFALI: From the mischief of the Whisperer (of Evil), who withdraws (after his whisper),-
PICKTHAL: From the evil of the sneaking whisperer,
SHAKIR: From the evil of the whisperings of the slinking (Shaitan),

114.005
YUSUFALI: (The same) who whispers into the hearts of Mankind,-
PICKTHAL: Who whispereth in the hearts of mankind,
SHAKIR: Who whispers into the hearts of men,

114.006
YUSUFALI: Among Jinns and among men.
PICKTHAL: Of the jinn and of mankind.
SHAKIR: From among the jinn and the men.

"Ilaah" (not the same word as "Allah") means God.


:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

boy, you tend to own everything. religion, god, the language of god... all are yours. i suggest you to let them free and try to widen your horizons. your have turned the universal religion of peace into your tribal religion.

Since you seem slow. Here is wat I said again:

warning:This is not making you look smart.

But it seems to be my calling to chew everything for the teethless like you. When I say it is my country, I don't have to own it. I myself belong to it. But I don't own it.

SO you still insist. Why? because you did not understand my plain English? How then will you understand the Qur'an, I might ask?
Or is it because you don't care to understand. And that you think that as long as you keep repeating yourself you will be believed?
Both don't speak well of you.

that reflects your understanding of sunnah. based on my learnings from the prophet i never chose to call anyone otherwise once he says he is muslim.

Says the one, who equates creation with The Creator.

you are confused again. if you are not mohammedan you are not. (btw, look it up in an english dictionary for mohammedan)

Check what the dictionnary says about "Turk": "one who is cruel or tyrannical", In Dutch it says turk also means dumb. This shows that dictionnaries are nothing more that conventions. And the mohameddan convention is issue of a tradition which says that Muslims view Mohammad -peace be upon him- as the christians view Jesus- peace be upon him. That is not true. Mohammad, is but a messenger as were many before him. Capisce?

that's good for you. (though most difficult). let us see then how you apply it to your perspective and attiudes and stop backbiting and throwing slanderings on other muslims whom you have no idea other than their names.

Exactly. I don't have anything agaisnt your person. It is you poor understanding and argumentation I challenged. And then you became all defensive. And came up with terms like Mullah boys (wasn't that supposed to be backbiting??)

as you do not like to put it as a label, start practicing the lessons i quoted about allahs presence everywhere.

That is the thing. You have failed to provide a valid argumentation for that based on the Qur'an.

open your mind, there are hundreds of tribal religions in the world today. think about what it means to be the unviersal religion of peace for all humankind.

It doesn't matter how many times you repeat that. Islam is universal. The Original text of the Qur'an is in Arabic. You don't like that, that is your problem, I take the words of Allah as they are and not as -dwerling dervish- Hulusi tells me.

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

mullah guys!

Doomdayx, I think you are falling below the standarts you claim. I already said I do not have Mullahs. I might even add that I originate from a country where "sufism" was the standart and is still very much present. And where the term "Mullah" and what it denotes have never had foot on the soil.

Anyways, I think it is only fair that if you continue doing this, from now on, you will be adressed as "Whirling Dervishes", that whirl and twirl. (thx leo.)

Did the laws the Koran informs us exist befroe its communication in Arabic?-since mohammed (pbuh) was not given any written material, then what was he asked to read by iqra in the beginning?

He was to recite what Gibril said. After that He commanded it to be committed in letters. That is the authentic message as ordained by Allah. Any translation is a human endeavor and does not pocess the same authenticity.

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

you mullah guys, now clean up your dirt...

Well, aren't we insolent.

answering the questions you created.

See there is the difference between us. You don't like to be questionned. I do and I expect to be. And I don't shy from answering without getting defensive.

mullah bruce wayne said, it wasn't him but god limited the quran into arabic and he believed it is a limited book, then what is your answer to path's question within the framework of your insertion?


mullah surenderer said, "being someone who knows Arabic I know I can go to any bookstore and pick up an English Koran and read it and know that it doesnt say the same thing as an Arabic one". so what is your answer to

Ok.
Go back. Read the thread again. Think it over.
Then Go back. Read the thread again. Think it over.
...
(repeat until you see that the questions have been answered already)

:m:

 

[path]

The quran wasn't always viewed by mainstream muslims as it is today a fact I allude to in another thread.

A major theological debate in fact arose within Islam in the late eighth century, pitting those who believed in the Koran as the "uncreated" and eternal Word of God against those who believed in it as created in time, like anything that isn't God himself. Under the Caliph al-Ma'mun (813-833) this latter view briefly became orthodox doctrine. It was supported by several schools of thought, including an influential one known as Mu'tazilism, that developed a complex theology based partly on a metaphorical rather than simply literal understanding of the Koran.

By the end of the tenth century the influence of the Mu'tazili school had waned, for complicated political reasons, and the official doctrine had become that of i'jaz, or the "inimitability" of the Koran. (As a result, the Koran has traditionally not been translated by Muslims for non-Arabic-speaking Muslims. Instead it is read and recited in the original by Muslims worldwide, the majority of whom do not speak Arabic. The translations that do exist are considered to be nothing more than scriptural aids and paraphrases.) The adoption of the doctrine of inimitability was a major turning point in Islamic history, and from the tenth century to this day the mainstream Muslim understanding of the Koran as the literal and uncreated Word of God has remained constant.

This sounds abit like Sufi and Doomsday

"I would like to get the Koran out of this prison," Abu Zaid has said of the prevailing Islamic hostility to reinterpreting the Koran for the modern age, "so that once more it becomes productive for the essence of our culture and the arts, which are being strangled in our society." Despite his many enemies in Egypt, Abu Zaid may well be making progress toward this goal: there are indications that his work is being widely, if quietly, read with interest in the Arab world. Abu Zaid says, for example, that his The Concept of the Text (1990) -- the book largely responsible for his exile from Egypt -- has gone through at least eight underground printings in Cairo and Beirut.

The article is here

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The quran wasn't always viewed by mainstream muslims as it is today a fact I allude to in another thread.

See path this is what I don´t like about you. You are too eager to believe anything you think suits you.

As fot the Mu´tazillah. I don´t think you have the baggage needed to discuss that. I have read books about it. And still I am not willing to issue a an opinion, since it is complicated. But you found it by surprise and here you are using it.

I have seen what you have written about it elsewhere. But I did not want to respond since all you know about the subject is comprized of a paragraph on the internet..

This sounds abit like Sufi and Doomsday

Yet it is nothing alike. The difference between philosphers and Whirling Dervishes is vast. And the philosophers, since the greeks have view the "Unmoved Mover" seperately from the "moved".

:m:

 

[skywalker]

Bruce, DOOMS sounder like our old friend Vienna or Vincent2Uk, they had a problem of not understanding other's posts and points and keep repeathing themself again and again and asking samething agian and again, even after some one or multiple people explained them so many times but they totally ignore their posts or ignore what has been written if it didn' suit their agenda, it is not the TRUTH..lol. Looks like a same problem with Doomy here.

 

[everneo]

I am repeating myself here, I have already adressed this before. One doesný need to understand the Arabic to be able to understand Arabic.

But to perform an in-depth exegesis, one surely need the language of Arabic. For instance, Once sufi claimed that "Laa Illaha Illa Llah" means: ther is no god. there is Allah" or something similar. I said it meant "there is no God, excepgt Allah". Now in order to argue that point we must grasp Arabic, What do you think everneo?

For that kind of exegesis, one needs a very deep grasp over Arabic, years of study of the language then of the tradition of Muhammad -peace be upon him- to put it in contest. One doesn't interpret the bible based on the chinese translation but on the original text.

:m:

The arabic "Laa Illaha Illa Llah" could be translated in english as "There is no God but Allah". Is there any significant difference? Our sufi's argument that 'There is no God. Only Allah" has something to do with interpretation rather than translation. It is his view, not based on just translation/less knowledge in arabic. I personally disagree with his view that there is no God at all, ofcourse.

 

[path]

See path this is what I don´t like about you. You are too eager to believe anything you think suits you.

See Bruce this is what I don´t like about you. You are too eager to discount anything you think doesn't suit you. Seriously Bruce this is a rather stupid statement on several levels.

As fot the Mu´tazillah. I don´t think you have the baggage needed to discuss that. I have read books about it.

Reread my post and THINK this time

But you found it by surprise and here you are using it.

Imagine that actually finding something on the internet and even reading something on the internet!!! OMG is that Piracy!? intellectual property theft? Am I going to burn in hell and my skin be changed for a new one everyday?

I have seen what you have written about it elsewhere. But I did not want to respond since all you know about the subject is comprized of a paragraph on the internet..

Honestly you are such an arrogant and presumptuous ass sometimes Bruce. Discovered yet another springboard Bruce life is full of them

 

[Bruce Wayne]

See Bruce this is what I don´t like about you. You are too eager to discount anything you think doesn't suit you. Seriously Bruce this is a rather stupid statement on several levels.

The Mu'tazilah do suit my purpose actually (surprise!) but again if you do not understand basic christianity history of Europe, I don't think you can manage this. And I am getting tired of spelling things out to you.

As I told you before. You have let me down as a debating partner. You let yourself go because a couple of kids, who happen to be from some Muslim country are misbehaving in the country you emigrated to. You have let that take over.

Reread my post and THINK this time

How cute...

Imagine that actually finding something on the internet and even reading something on the internet!!! OMG is that Piracy!? intellectual property theft? Am I going to burn in hell and my skin be changed for a new one everyday?

No.. no you may read it. That's no problem. The thing that worries me though, is you capability to understand it.

Honestly you are such an arrogant and presumptuous ass sometimes Bruce. Discovered yet another springboard Bruce life is full of them

It is always good to release those bad vibes. But remember... Breath in...Breath out...

:m: