a question about the Tawhid

[Doomdayx]

Doom,
So are you then saying (just wondering) that one doesnt need to learn Arabic to read the Koran?

will be better if one learns.

I have seen the cess-pool that the Bible has become because of translations and translations of translations etc Remeber that muslims believe that the Bible was pure untill this..... That's part of the reason that the Koran has been protected for 1400 years.

it is not the reason. don't worry it is written in everyone's inner and outer world, it will be protected in any way. the problem is to be able to read it truly.

read [41.53] (We shall show them Our signs upon the horizons and in their souls....)
btw, afaq does rather mean horizon (outside world) as in sufi's translation.

Why not make the effort to learn God and the language he revealed to his last Prophet? Its the easy way out to just have it translated for you and thus depend on someone else's interpetation of what was meant. As I am sure you know that some words (Allah being one) dont translate into other languages at least not with their full effect.

fine. but do not try to limit reading the quran into one language.
peace to you

 

[Doomdayx]

warning:This is not making you look smart.

But it seems to be my calling to chew everything for the teethless like you. When I say it is my country, I don't have to own it. I myself belong to it. But I don't own it.

boy, you tend to own everything. religion, god, the language of god... all are yours. i suggest you to let them free and try to widen your horizons. your have turned the universal religion of peace into your tribal religion.

The only thing I know about this muslimism of yours is that you like to put it as a label on others.

that reflects your understanding of sunnah. based on my learnings from the prophet i never chose to call anyone otherwise once he says he is muslim.

It is not me who calls myself a Mohammedan (it is you).

you are confused again. if you are not mohammedan you are not. (btw, look it up in an english dictionary for mohammedan)

I humbly follow the Qur'an when Allah says that he has chosen for as Islam as a religion.

that's good for you. (though most difficult). let us see then how you apply it to your perspective and attiudes and stop backbiting and throwing slanderings on other muslims whom you have no idea other than their names. as you do not like to put it as a label, start practicing the lessons i quoted about allahs presence everywhere.

lol. There goes your mind again. While others have arguments of why Arabic "nationalism" is well compatible with Islam, I happen to view Arab NAtionalism as something beneath Islam, I might be mistaken though.

open your mind, there are hundreds of tribal religions in the world today. think about what it means to be the unviersal religion of peace for all humankind.

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Doesn't this sound to you a childish belief when considering the end of the world after billions of years from now? The Koran will remain not in memories, but within the essence of the system and order that we are always subject to. Try to read it, you will see it is forever!

If you would know more about religion you would undertsand that mpoint. I don't have the time to explain it to you. So just think of what happened to the Torah and the Injeel when they kept being translated. Suddently some attributed a son to Allah -Ma3athallah-

Also remember the Koran was always there to read before it was memorized. Mohammed (pbuh) READ the Koran from the system and order in life. Remember iqra when he was not given any written book! So what was he asked to read?

You are not Mohammad (peace be upon him)

So many muslims are thinking they are practicing jihad even if they do not know what is referred to as "Allah" whereas knowing and believing in Allah as is defined in the Koran is the basis of the religion. There cannot be religion or religious practice without it. The practice of the ignorant only satsifies their ego, nothing else. And because of theri illusion of a separate god who watches them from above, they foolisly keep expecting a favor from their imaginal god in return of their practice.

If they believed you fantasy, would they then be performing (armed)Jihad or does armed Jihad not exist in your world?

Essentially jihad is an effort not to forget in any case that whichever side you turn there is the presence of ALLAH, nothing else. There cannot be jihad without knowing what Allah is or as fas as one takes Allah as a separate god.

Why? because you say that? Mohammed -peace be upon him- didn't believe in a non-seperate idol as you do.

(let's see if you believe in Sunnah, no turning around the bush now. And there is more)

Sahih Muslim

Book 004, Number 1094:

Mu'awiya b. al-Hakam said: While I was praying with the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him), a man in the company sneezed. I said: Allah have mercy on you! The people stared at me with disapproving looks, so I said: Woe be upon me, why is it that you stare at me? They began to strike their hands on their thighs, and when I saw them urging me to observe silence (I became angry) but I said nothing. When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) had said the prayer (and I declare that neither before him nor after him have I seen a leader who gave better instruction than he for whom I would give my father and mother as ransom). I swear that he did not scold, beat or revile me but said: Talking to persons is not fitting during the prayer, for it consists of glorifying Allah, declaring his Greatness. and recitation of the Qur'an or words to that effect. I said: Messenger of Allah. I was till recently a pagan, but Allah has brought Islam to us; among us there are men who have recourse to Kahins. He said, Do not have recourse to them. I said. There are men who take omens. That is something which they find in their breasts, but let it not turn their way (from freedom of action). I said: Among us there are men who draw lines. He said: There was a prophet who drew lines, so if they do it as they did, that is allowable. I had a maid-servant who tended goats by the side of Uhud and Jawwaniya. One day I happened to pass that way and found that a wolf had carried a goat from her flock. I am after all a man from the posterity of Adam. I felt sorry as they (human beings) feel sorry. So I slapped her. I came to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) and felt (this act of mine) as something grievous I said: Messenger of Allah, should I not grant her freedom? He (the Holy Prophet) said: Bring her to me. So I brought her to him. He said to her: Where is Allah? She said: He is in the heaven. He said: Who am I? She said: Thou art the Messenger of Allah. He said: Grant her freedom, she is a believing woman.


:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

will be better if one learns.

ouf! progres.

Sufi, do you agree with Doomdayx?

it is not the reason. don't worry it is written in everyone's inner and outer world, it will be protected in any way. the problem is to be able to read it truly.

lol.

read [41.53] (We shall show them Our signs upon the horizons and in their souls....)
btw, afaq does rather mean horizon (outside world) as in sufi's translation.

Subhana LLah. Sufi, where did you get that translation? And! see why it is indispensible to understand Arabic in order to really understand the Qur'an.

fine. but do not try to limit reading the quran into one language.

Reading the translations of the "meanings" of the Qur'an can be done in many a language. Reading the Qur'an only in Arabic.

Understanding (as in interpretting) cannot be without the Arabic text of the Qur'an.

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

I'll be back for more.

:m:

 

[path]

Possible common ground for you all?

The Multiple Understandings of the QUR'AN
Generally it is believed by many, if not all, Muslims that there is one authentic interpretation of the Qur'an. It is far from true. Even the closest companions of the Prophet (PBUH) differed from each other in understanding various verses. Also, in Islam, since there is no concept of official church, no one interpretation can command following of a majority of Muslims, let alone all Muslims. There is hardly any major issue on which Muslim 'ulama (scholars) do not differ. These differences, more often than not, are due to different interpretations of the Qur'anic text.
It is because of this that every sect or school of thought has its own orthodox and liberal followers. There is Shi'ah orthodoxy or Sunni orthodoxy, Isma'ili orthodoxy or Bohra orthodoxy, Hanafi orthodoxy or Shafi'i orthodoxy and so on. But that's not all?now there are scholars with modern and liberal thinking that are looking at the Qur'anic text from modern and liberal perspectives. And some feminists or those working for empowerment of women read the Qur'an from feminist points of view.
There are various reasons for this. Firstly, the Qur'anic text is very rich and can be understood in many ways. Secondly, its language often tends to be symbolic or allegorical, and hence these symbols and allegories carry rich social and cultural meanings, and its shades of meaning can change with different socio-cultural backgrounds. Thus often social and cultural factors can play an important role in the understanding of the Qur'anic text. Those scholars who have been brought up in modern societies with their own intellectual traditions tend to understand the text differently from those who studied the text under medieval ethos.

Here

Pardon the interruption, carry on.

 

[robtex]

I didn't post after making this thread because Surender did such a complete job of answering that I figured...ok got an answer case closed. But this thread and since grown and taken a new path and I found another question buried in here that I was curious about.

It is the notion that to understand the quran well or mabye even adquately you must speak arabic. I have a copy of the quran that I am reading and it is in both english and arabic. The reason for the arabic, the aurthors who translated said, is that for it to be a true quran it must have the orginal arabic in it but of course since it was being sold to American readers here in the states it had a translation for us to understand and learn from. So my quran has arabic on the left and english on the right. I of can only read the english and read so many pages every week in english.

The question is, for those of us who don't read arabic and are not planning to learn it, can we truely understand the Islamic relgion and if not are the non-arabic reading, speaking Muslims true muslims?

 

[path]

Islam is an arabic religion, I know our muslim members disagree but I have said it before. If it was truly god giving his last message (he has unlimited power you know) then why was that message restricted to arabic if it was a message for ALL mankind from a deity who is All knowing and all powerful. The arguments that you need to learn arabic or it was done to keep it pure just don't address this question, remember allah is all powerful etc..

 

[surenderer]

I didn't post after making this thread because Surender did such a complete job of answering that I figured...ok got an answer case closed. But this thread and since grown and taken a new path and I found another question buried in here that I was curious about.

It is the notion that to understand the quran well or mabye even adquately you must speak arabic. I have a copy of the quran that I am reading and it is in both english and arabic. The reason for the arabic, the aurthors who translated said, is that for it to be a true quran it must have the orginal arabic in it but of course since it was being sold to American readers here in the states it had a translation for us to understand and learn from. So my quran has arabic on the left and english on the right. I of can only read the english and read so many pages every week in english.

The question is, for those of us who don't read arabic and are not planning to learn it, can we truely understand the Islamic relgion and if not are the non-arabic reading, speaking Muslims true muslims?

Most English Korans say "inspired by" or "interpetation of" etc...... as I have said countless times in this thread certain words just dont translate from one language to another....at least not with the same meaning. I actually believe that non-muslims are suppose to read an English Koran.....I did before I reverted to Islam....but once I became a Muslim I needed to learn more in-depth what the Creator wanted from me as a Muslim so I then began to learn Arabic. Although any copy of the Koran deserves respect English one (since it's really not the literal word of the Creator per se) isnt the same as an Arabic one and is usually treated differently. So I guess what I'm saying is that the steps that non-Arabic speakers usually take (at least the ones I know) are 1st read an English Koran and then after one accepts Islam then begin to learn Arabic.....Hope that answers your questions :m:


Oh and to answer your last question....yes I think non-Arabic muslims are true Muslims (for one muslim to tell another muslim that he isnt a true muslim is a serious charge) but I still think they need to Learn Islam to avoid misinterpetations



peace to you

 

[surenderer]

Islam is an arabic religion, I know our muslim members disagree but I have said it before.

I actually dont totally disagree with you Path.....But I never said that Non-Arabic speaking Muslims arent true Muslims but in order to know the exact words from the Creator then yes.....a Muslim should learn Arabic

The arguments that you need to learn arabic or it was done to keep it pure just don't address this question, remember allah is all powerful etc..

But it has worked and is growing for over 1400 years

then why was that message restricted to arabic if it was a message for ALL mankind from a deity who is All knowing and all powerful.

Why is Arabic a restriction.....Who ever said that if you DONT learn arabic you are going to Hell?....but if one is a muslim and wants to learn what the Creator reveled to the Prophet(pbuh) then why would one want that translated when they can learn for themselves?

 

[Sufi]

Reading the Koran in true sense is reading the SPIRITof the KORAN. Not the literal words. Reading the literal words in Arabic is a zhikr. But to be able to “READ” the Koran, it is necessary to consider the purpose for which the verses regarding a particular event were revealed, and the benefits that these verses aim to provide man and women with. All the evaluations must be based on these facts.

The Koran did not start with its communication in Arabic. It always is existent in the essence of the universe and will last there until doomsday. This SPIRIT was READ and COMMUNICATED to people by all Rasuls and Nabis with the tongue of their people. (See 14:4) so that it must be reflected upon.

Mohammed did not write the Koran. He READ the SPIRIT of the KORAN since he was revealed the first command: READ (iqra), and communicated it to people for along 23 years. Jesus did not write a book, the READ the same book written in his own essence as well as in the universe (see 41:53) and communicated it to people with their language. All Nabis and Rasuls read the same system that operates for us. The commands are not sent by a separate god from above. All our misunderstandings and misdeeds are caused by our imagination of a separate god, to which our egos convince us to boost its feeling of specialness.

The Koran tells the system of Allah (known as sunnatAllah) and the laws that operates in life and that all humans are subject to, knowingly or unknowingly. Those laws existed always even before the revelation of the Koran to Mohammed (pbuh). Without understanding this fact one cannot truly evaluate the message given in the printed book, and you are fooled into thinking that the word Koran refers to the printed book you have in your bookcase. On should look behind the words to READ the SPIRIT of the Koran.

As a result of our failure to understand the "SPIRIT of the Koran", the Koran is not actually READ and thus, people hold onto its surface verbalism, literal meaning. The unfortunate consequence is that the given message is lost!

When need arises to create a law, the main factor in its establishment is in fact the SPIRIT of such a law, which demands that law to be established. An adequate fashion of rendering (statement) is determined in connection with that SPIRIT, that is the prospect of thought, and it is verbalized and therewith an article of law is brought into existence…

When a judge needs to exercise this law, he establishes a connection between the given event and his own perspective of judicious reasoning about that event and makes a judgment based on the main reason that has formed the law.

If a judge sets his opinion about an event by taking the law within the surface verbalism rather than respecting the SPIRIT of that law, he is most likely to MISJUDGE!

A judicial decision must be based not on the literal aspect of a law but on its SPIRIT!

Laws exist along with their SPIRITS. If they are taken in MERE VERBALISM, DEVIATIONS from the goal will result! The conscience of a judge is there to help the judicious reasoning of an event be based on the SPIRIT of law!

In the same way, to be able to “READ” the Koran, it is necessary to consider the purpose for which the verses regarding a particular event were revealed, and the benefits that these verses aim to provide man and women with. All the evaluations must be based on these facts.

Every INDIVIDUAL is responsible of READING the Koran in this sense for themselves, of which the signs are shown to them in their outer and inner worlds, until it is clear to them that the whole oneness is the real. (See 41:53) To make excuses for the mistakes that it was the practice of other Muslims in their surroundings, is of no importance. Learning the system of life by following the Koran, rather than by following the Muslims is essential for every human being. Those who fail to do so will suffer its consequences in the Hereafter, when they see they survived without a physical body.

 

[path]

But it has worked and is growing for over 1400 years

a testament to the gullibility of the human species

Why is Arabic a restriction.....Who ever said that if you DONT learn arabic you are going to Hell?....but if one is a muslim and wants to learn what the Creator reveled to the Prophet(pbuh) then why would one want that translated when they can learn for themselves?

Because it is not my or the majority of humanity's native tongue (and never will be) how powerless is a god that can't even manage more than that. Why shouldn't humanity ask for a message that they can understand without having to adopt a foriegn language. It is just ludicrious "hey look we have gods real message.......but ...uhhh he didn't give us a copy in your language so you have to learn ours....hey while you are at it dress like us....and have the same moral code as us and make a pilgrimage to our lands etc etc...

 

[Bruce Wayne]

The question is, for those of us who don't read arabic and are not planning to learn it, can we truely understand the Islamic relgion and if not are the non-arabic reading, speaking Muslims true muslims?

Yes you can.

The issue we are discussing here is not that of understanding the religion of Islam or the Qur'an. What is at hand here is that these individuals believe in something that contradicts the Qur'an, which is their problem. But since they claim it is based on the Qur'an, then they must back it up. And in that are still failing.

Now the point is that in order for them to prove their fantasy/theory they must have a very very deep understanding of the text. Something as a native speaker I don't claim. It is not something that you just do. It takes total dedication. So we are not speaking about understanding the Qur'an or the religion. But about a lunatic perception that parasites on the Qur'an without any qualification.

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

Islam is an arabic religion, I know our muslim members disagree but I have said it before. If it was truly god giving his last message (he has unlimited power you know) then why was that message restricted to arabic if it was a message for ALL mankind from a deity who is All knowing and all powerful. The arguments that you need to learn arabic or it was done to keep it pure just don't address this question, remember allah is all powerful etc..

Robtex, path and me have already debated this issue elsewhere. You can find that here: http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=38048
If you haven't yet, you will also get a better view of path's take on the subject (of Islam in general)

:m:

 

[Bruce Wayne]

path, forgive me for not yet tackling your post in the http://sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=41630. I will. It is just soo rich with insights.

:m:

 

[Doomdayx]

you mullah guys,
u are trying to turn the universal religion of peace into one of the hundreds of tribal religions in the world because of your ignorance.
i have a question for you!
i am keeping the complete book the quran in arabic in my computer, plus sound files. my computer can read it comletely by heart in arabic. do you believe that my computer is a better muslim than those non arabic speaker muslims, in this case?

 

[surenderer]

you mullah guys,
u are trying to turn the universal religion of peace into one of the hundreds of tribal religions in the world because of your ignorance.
i have a question for you!
i am keeping the complete book the quran in arabic in my computer, plus sound files. my computer can read it comletely by heart in arabic. do you believe that my computer is a better muslim than those non arabic speaker muslims, in this case?

That the best you can do? Dont know why you call us "mullah guys" since me and Bruce only quote the Koran ( or interpetation of since you dont know Arabic)in our posts.....guess you must find that offensive...anyway please explain these ayats:


[12.2] Surely We have revealed it-- an Arabic Quran-- that you may understand.


[43.3] Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you may understand.



I never said that Muslims who dont know Arabic are not Muslims or even bad Muslims but what I am sayng is that the Koran says (even in English versions) that the Koran was reveled IN ARABIC and as I have posted that it was done so that we can understand it better....now seeing as too how the Koran says this either A. you are saying the Koran is wrong....or B. you are claiming that you have knowledge other than what is written in the Koran


ilâ l-liqâ'

 

[Bruce Wayne]

you mullah guys,
u are trying to turn the universal religion of peace into one of the hundreds of tribal religions in the world because of your ignorance.
i have a question for you!
i am keeping the complete book the quran in arabic in my computer, plus sound files. my computer can read it comletely by heart in arabic. do you believe that my computer is a better muslim than those non arabic speaker muslims, in this case?

I wonder if the word lame covers that??

:m:

(I think it does )

 

[everneo]

please explain these ayats:


[12.2] Surely We have revealed it-- an Arabic Quran-- that you may understand.


[43.3] Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you may understand.

The audience then were the arabs who can understand only arabic.

The quran was not corrupt not because it is in arabic, but because of the vigilance & believing Allah's assurance that he would protect the quran.

Learing quran in arabic is preferred; but that does not give any superiority over non-arabs in understanding what Allah is telling. If this is not correct then i have to agree with path that Allah belongs to arabs.

 

[Doomdayx]

.anyway please explain these ayats:


[12.2] Surely We have revealed it-- an Arabic Quran-- that you may understand.


[43.3] Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you may understand.


now seeing as too how the Koran says this either A. you are saying the Koran is wrong....or B. you are claiming that you have knowledge other than what is written in the Koran


ilâ l-liqâ'

first, do not take refugee in throwing your slanderings on me all the time. i can understand arabic, though i am not native. you do not know me. what kind of a morality you have that you try to base your insertions on your lies about me all the time when you do not have an answer?
is it so difficult for you to talk honesly without jumping into judgments and slanderings about matters you are without any knowledge at all? is this wat you understood of muslimism?

[43.3] Surely We have made it an Arabic Quran that you may understand.
why do you try to push the discussion toward a point of accusing your opponent with saying the quran is wrong? any idiot with the smallest mind would not expect a muslim to say that. who are you serving, the satan?
you asked if we are claiming that we have knowledge other than what is written in the quran.
cannot you ask instead that you may have interpretation other than what is meant in the quran? are you so narrow minded to believe that you never make a mistake but the others?
does not the quran say that every rasul communicated with the tongue of their people? why do you always turn a blind eye to this and to the time and conditions when a verse is revealed? any idiot would not expect the quran be revealed in another tongue if the time and conditions then are considered! any idiot would not expect the quran be communicated in english to an arabic speaking people or it be communicated in more than one language simultaneously like a game?
why do you try to ban others from learning the truths?

Dont know why you call us "mullah guys" since me and Bruce only quote the Koran ( or interpetation of since you dont know Arabic)in our posts.....guess you must find that offensive..

you are mullah guys standing between non arabic speaking people and islam to ban others from turning to the universal religion of peace and learning the realities for themselves.
as a habit you are always cutting and pasting quran verses without the minutest thought involved in about what is meant with them. you stick to their verbalism. just be honest, you are not learning something new from reading the verses but trying to find some of them to use to serve you to prove you, you are right anytime.

I never said that Muslims who dont know Arabic are not Muslims or even bad Muslims

this shows that you are not only unable to understand the quran verses truly, but also unable to understand what your words come to mean! how can one become a muslim without having a chance to understand the quran?
you mullah guys, u are not saying your words are your understanding of the quran, you are saying yours is what the quran says, so trying to turn the universal religion of peace into one of the hundreds of tribal religions in the world because of our ignorance.