8 yr old now living as girl

are you two twins?

the child owes it to himself to make an effort, he has the body of a male but doesnt feel like one inside. the body is the overriding factor here and feelings do change. clothes and appearance are only outward expressions.

The boy is in fact a girl in a boy's body. One's sexual organs does not automatically mean that you are that particular sex. Her brain identifies her as a girl, not a boy and has always done so. Now, you can attempt to force her to be a boy or you can let her be who she really is. From the article.

In what way does a brain identify a person that they are male or female?
 
Come now John, I'm going to assume you are male and ask if you ever had to make an effort at being male because I never ever had to make an effort at being female. I never thought about it, I was a girl period nothing to contemplate no effort involved and I am sure it was the same for you. I liked my dresses and curls and I liked the dolls and pink pretty things etc. I went through the tom boy phase as well for about five minutes where I wanted to play football and hang around the guys but during the same five minutes I also wanted a canopy bed, pink wallpaper with silver butterflies and a pair of white mary janes (you know the ones with the little snap on the side that had a ribbon on it:p). I always enjoyed my female body and hoped to have big boobies when I grew up (couldn't wait for my first bra), perfumey things etc.

By the way I'm the hells in the 'Bells';)

...I never did get the big boobies, only these B cup things:D
 
are you two twins?

the child owes it to himself to make an effort, he has the body of a male but doesnt feel like one inside. the body is the overriding factor here and feelings do change. clothes and appearance are only outward expressions.
Would the body be the mere outward expression of the soul. The soul being the real self.

I mean to Catholics.
 
Come now John, I'm going to assume you are male and ask if you ever had to make an effort at being male because I never ever had to make an effort at being female. I never thought about it, I was a girl period nothing to contemplate no effort involved and I am sure it was the same for you. I liked my dresses and curls and I liked the dolls and pink pretty things etc. I went through the tom boy phase as well for about five minutes where I wanted to play football and hang around the guys but during the same five minutes I also wanted a canopy bed, pink wallpaper with silver butterflies and a pair of white mary janes (you know the ones with the little snap on the side that had a ribbon on it:p). I always enjoyed my female body and hoped to have big boobies when I grew up (couldn't wait for my first bra), perfumey things etc.

By the way I'm the hells in the 'Bells';)

...I never did get the big boobies, only these B cup things:D

of course i am a male.

very few parents would allow their male children dress up like females. the way i know this is that you dont see or hear about many. another thing to consider is that the majority of adult homosexual men have no desire to dress as females.

and tell me would you just send your eight year old to school dressed like a girl?
 
are you two twins?
Ya. Long lost twin that I never knew I had. See, she's "Hell" and I am "Bells". Welcome to your doom.:D

the child owes it to himself to make an effort, he has the body of a male but doesnt feel like one inside. the body is the overriding factor here and feelings do change. clothes and appearance are only outward expressions.
No. The child owes it to herself to be herself and not what society dictates her as being because she was born with a penis instead of a vagina. Even dressed as a boy, she still identified herself as a girl. Clothes and toys mean nothing in that regard. In every sense of the word, except one, she is a girl. The exception in this case being that she was born with a penis. The body is not the overriding factor. Her brain is and her brain identifies itself and her as being female. Not male.

Now again, you can try to tell such a child that it is somehow their duty to be what the bits between their legs says they should be, but that will only lead to despair for the child. Or you can let her be who she is on the inside, and that, in this case, is female.

In what way does a brain identify a person that they are male or female?
Think about it. Have you ever considered yourself to be anything other than male? I have a 2 year old and a 3.5 year old and in every sense of the word, they are male. There is nothing female about them, not in their personalities or in who they are. And that is not because I have brought them up as male. It is how they identify themselves as.

This particular child and others like her have always identified themselves as being the opposite sex to what they were born as. Not because they were told or taught to see themselves that way. It is simply how they see and identify themselves. It is natural and innate and completely outside of the control of the child.

How do kids know they're transgender?

Trans children know who they are the same way we know who we are. Imagine you go into the hospital for a minor operation; you wake up to find that by some horrible error you've mistakenly been given a full sex-change operation. Do you think that just because your body now looks like the opposite sex you will ever be comfortable living as a man or a woman? This is the only way those of us who "match" (our brain development and our biological body are congruent) can relate. At no point, regardless of how happy the child looks, is the child truly comfortable in his or her body or with his or her expected social roles. The only recourse for these children is to dress as they identify and hope that no one remembers what is really under their clothes.


2. Isn't it easier to teach your child how to be a boy (or a girl)?

Not for the child. Trying to teach a trans child how to be the opposite of how he or she feels is like trying to teach a non-trans child the same. All you are really doing is teaching them how society expects them to behave based on their genitalia, which also comes with a number of ramifications. First and foremost, this track further emphasizes trans gender children's hatred of their bodies. Telling a child "You are a boy -- you have a penis" (or the opposite for a female-to-male child) just reinforces the feelings of discomfort. This "hatred of their body" often leads to eating disorders, self-mutilation and suicide.

And even if you could successfully teach "proper expected behaviors," you end up sending mixed messages when you attempt to teach your child right from wrong when dealing with peer pressures. How do you successfully teach your child how to be who others expect and also try to teach your child not to be pressured into acting like "all the other kids" when the behavior is wrong? Teaching your child to "be what others expect" is contrary to developing a good sense of conscience and self-esteem.

http://www.fairness.org/mc/page.do?sitePageId=56287&orgId=faca

That child is very lucky to have parents who care so much for her to allow her to be who she really is, and that is a girl.

The case of David Reimer is a prime example of just how what you appear to be is not who you really are on the inside.

In 1967, Dr. John Money launched an experiment that he thought might confirm some of the more radical ideas emerging in feminist thought. Throughout the ’60s, writers such as Betty Friedan were challenging the notion that women should be limited to their prescribed roles as wives, housekeepers, and mothers. But other feminists pushed further, arguing that the whole notion of gender was a social construction, and easy to manipulate. In a 1955 paper, Money had written: “Sexual behavior and orientation as male or female does not have an innate, instinctive basis.” We learn whether we are male or female “in the course of the various experiences of growing up.” By the ’60s, he was well-known for having established the first American clinic to perform voluntary sex-change operations, at the Johns Hopkins Hospital, in Baltimore. One day, he got a letter from the parents of infant twin boys, one of whom had suffered a botched circumcision that had burned off most of his penis.

Money saw the case as a perfect test for his theory. He encouraged the parents to have the boy, David Reimer, fully castrated and then to raise him as a girl. When the child reached puberty, Money told them, doctors could construct a vagina and give him feminizing hormones. Above all, he told them, they must not waver in their decision and must not tell the boy about the accident.

In paper after paper, Money reported on Reimer’s fabulous progress, writing that “she” showed an avid interest in dolls and dollhouses, that she preferred dresses, hair ribbons, and frilly blouses. Money’s description of the child in his book Sexual Signatures prompted one reviewer to describe her as “sailing contentedly through childhood as a genuine girl.” Time magazine concluded that the Reimer case cast doubt on the belief that sex differences are “immutably set by the genes at conception.”

The reality was quite different, as Rolling Stone reporter John Colapinto brilliantly documented in the 2000 best seller As Nature Made Him. Reimer had never adjusted to being a girl at all. He wanted only to build forts and play with his brother’s dump trucks, and insisted that he should pee standing up. He was a social disaster at school, beating up other kids and misbehaving in class. At 14, Reimer became so alienated and depressed that his parents finally told him the truth about his birth, at which point he felt mostly relief, he reported. He eventually underwent phalloplasty, and he married a woman. Then four years ago, at age 38, Reimer shot himself dead in a grocery-store parking lot.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200811/transgender-children

If he had been allowed to be what he actually was on the inside, the end result would probably have been vastly different.
 
of course i am a male.

very few parents would allow their male children dress up like females. the way i know this is that you dont see or hear about many. another thing to consider is that the majority of adult homosexual men have no desire to dress as females.

and tell me would you just send your eight year old to school dressed like a girl?

If my 8 year old identified herself as a girl from the time she could talk, then obviously something is not quite right and she identifies herself as a female and yes, I would send her to school in a dress.

You seem to have this weird notion that these kids just wake up one day and want to be the opposite sex. The reality is that these children always identify themselves as being the opposite sex. It is not a phase. They are actually the opposite sex in their brain. Their bodies just do not match up.

What does being homosexual have to do with it? Gender identity has nothing to do with one's sexuality.

You say you have always been a male and are a male. Do you think the only thing that makes you male is your penis? Or does your brain also identify you as being male? Now imagine if one day you were to lose your penis and given a vagina. Would you automatically become a woman (mentally and physically)? Or would your brain still consider you to be male?
 
That doesn't really seem like a response. What do you believe? The language you used was so close to religious language relating souls and bodies.

i am discussing this from a scientific and social aspect, dont hang onto every word i write or at least tell me what you are talking about.
 
If my 8 year old identified herself as a girl from the time she could talk, then obviously something is not quite right and she identifies herself as a female and yes, I would send her to school in a dress.

did you mean to say this?

if my 8 year old identified herself himself as a girl from the time she could talk, then obviously something is not quite right and she identifies herself as a female and yes, I would send her to school in a dress.

i am saying that very few people would. thats all.
 
hopfully this wont spur johns idocy but i was wondering why does it apear that trangender tends to effect male sex people?
 
hopfully this wont spur johns idocy but i was wondering why does it apear that trangender tends to effect male sex people?

Asguard, i dont think it is necessary to call people idiots.

as to your question: many females DO dress like males. and to be honest it seems be easier for a female to maks.
 
i am discussing this from a scientific and social aspect, dont hang onto every word i write or at least tell me what you are talking about.
OK.

It seems like the family has come to a decision. I have no reason to assume they did not make their decision with some care. If it turns out the kid is doing this for shallow reasons, then the problems the kid will face will probably discourage this. Science has recently been supporting the idea that some people feel like their gender does not match their bodies. Transgender people I know, felt this way when they were younger, at least some of them, than the child in the article. This is a part of the real world and the other children can deal with it. It would not have disturbed me when I was 8. Predicting all the bad things that can happen seems speculative to me and no scientific. They could allow this to move forward, deal with problems as they arise and reevaluate in a dialogue with the family. Perhaps they will even do this since the kid is not prohibited from attending.

No doubt when the first children of other races went into classrooms it caused problems and even made things less peaceful. Oh, well. Learning how to live in a diverse world is a part of school. And you don't even have to learn to approve of certain kinds of diversity, but you damn well need to learn how to live and let live. Here's a perfect learning opportunity.

You said the body is the overriding factor as if this is somehow apriori true. Clearly this is not the case for many adults and these adults say it was not the case when they were young. Psychiatrists and a wide array of medical professionals support them in going against what their bodies say their gender is. Further the feelings these people have are also physical processes and ones that need to be respected.

To operate on this child would be irresponsible.

But to allow some children to do this after the family becomes convinced the happiness of that child is at stake or the mental well being or a deep sense of rightness seems right to me. To make some rule that all children should not do this seems to go against what the medical profession is finding out about us
and really serves only one purpose
to put everything in the boxes everyone else is used to
so they feel OK.

I think it is better to teach them that they can feel OK anyway.
 
did you mean to say this?

if my 8 year old identified herself himself as a girl from the time she could talk, then obviously something is not quite right and she identifies herself as a female and yes, I would send her to school in a dress.

i am saying that very few people would. thats all.
Very few people have done a lot of good things before they became norms. Very few whites allowed their children to be friends with or date blacks at one time. Very few parents would accept their gay children at one time.

and before you say this doesn't mean it's a good idea, I am simply saying that your argument is weak, if that is what it was.
 
in case you didnt realize, i did say this person should be able to do what they think is right but after they are able to make a more informed choice?
 
actually its a lot easier on them is its done early, most specifically the removal of the testicals (or overies) before they become active and releace the wrong sex hormones. this means that aplication of the right sex hormones (in this case estrogen) have a lot better chance of working and causing bter breast development ect

the one thing i dont think can be fixed is the pelvis unfortunatly, actually it would be nice if a reproductive organ transplant could be done (unfortuantly i think they are illegal) so she could be fully sexually and reproductivly active when the time came
 
of course i am a male.

very few parents would allow their male children dress up like females. the way i know this is that you dont see or hear about many. another thing to consider is that the majority of adult homosexual men have no desire to dress as females.

and tell me would you just send your eight year old to school dressed like a girl?

Transgender and homosexuality are different issues entirely. Homosexuals don't want to change their sex they are simply sexually attracted to their same sex. As far as my future children are concerned I hope I am as half as aware of what is going on with my child and as compassionate and insightful as the parents of the child in question to make the same decision, so the answer is yes. I would try with the proper help to decide whether my child is going through a phase or really transgender and if they turned out to be transgender I would allow them to explore the sex they say they are. Of course I would hope like anyone that my child if it were male would coincide in all areas of its being to be a male or female if you know what i mean, but if that were not the case I would do what is right. in the best interest of the child and what is humane.
 
No doubt when the first children of other races went into classrooms it caused problems and even made things less peaceful. Oh, well. Learning how to live in a diverse world is a part of school. And you don't even have to learn to approve of certain kinds of diversity, but you damn well need to learn how to live and let live. Here's a perfect learning opportunity.

To make some rule that all children should not do this seems to go against what the medical profession is finding out about us
and really serves only one purpose
to put everything in the boxes everyone else is used to
so they feel OK.

I think the relationship to race and gender are different for one reason in this particular case, the school didn't deny him because of gender, they decided that because he had attended the school for three years as a 'boy' and it would be difficult and distracting to explain that he was now dressing as a girl and being called by a girls name but was still a boy. They made a decision that was in the childs best interest. We cannot pretend that this case is common as say...black, white and asian people are. He is only 8 after all. It is best if she begins in a school where they know her as she, makes total practical sense. The school did not decide this based on religious beliefs and they did not create a rule prohibiting this.
 
in case you didnt realize, i did say this person should be able to do what they think is right but after they are able to make a more informed choice?

The child is not getting a sex change John, its only 'living' as a girl. The child in question has time and a choice to decide about hormones and surgery if she/he decided to do so at the time. You may not realize this but when an adult decides they want a gender operation they have to see a psychiatrist, live and dress as a woman for a few years, then take hormones before they get to the surgery. This isn't something that is taken lightly even if someone walks in and says 'hey, I'm a girl or guy snip or tuck' No! Its not done like that, all the parents are doing is putting him through a phase as a girl to see if this is what he really wants. He can change his mind at any time.
 
Frankly, in locker rooms, I don't stare at women's crotches. While I don't want men in women's locker rooms, I don't care if a transwoman is in there. A girl is a girl is a girl.

But the one in the OP is a male.


That's easy for you to say because you're not transgender. But a co-worker of mine is, it is a diagnosable psychological disorder and the treatment is gender/sex reassignment. The treatment has a pretty high success rate as well. As far as people no longer feel like prisoners in their own body.

If anything, these transgender things only make people identify with their bodies even more. How can that be good?
 
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