Zionist piracy

[baftan]

1.) If the Palestinian people were not oppressed, starved and imprisoned, there would not be humanitarian interventions. As it is, this is a noble example of human empathy and should be (by any decent human being) supported and admired.

Wrong. Palestinian people have been subject to these treatments for half a century. It's not a new thing. Turkey, however, being one of the first state which officially recognised Israel as a country as soon as it was declared (1948, even before U.S.) has always preserved very close relations with Israel up until January 2009. There is no noble intentions behind Turkish government, and no "pure" humanitarian aims behind the IHH (organisation behind this journey). This is a calculated political gain campaign. These people were thrown in front of Israel knowing that they will be stopped.

2.) People should expect at a minimum that Israel should not violate international law. This action is indisputably criminal and frankly disgusting. Period. And speaks volumes around the unpredictable nature of the regime in Israel.

There is no specific breach of any International Law. The general principle, tradition, a simplest rule of humanity is violated: Using weapons against unarmed civilians. However, this stupid organisation has already given plenty of material for Israel to justify its excessive action. This is also deeply related with the irresponsible and ignorant attitude of Turkish State policy.

3.) The Media presence is aimed at raising awareness of the gravity around the Palestinian plight. An issue that is generally ignored by the Western corporate media. Note that this incident is so outrageous that it is being universally condemned, even buy the WCM.

The incident is outrageous, but it was prepared by Turkish and Israeli governments for the best part of last month and presented to the world. World should ask why did they cause such an event, but they will not; because western and eastern, southern and northern they are all same hypocrites.

This is another nail in the coffin for the Israeli State.

As long as this revenge mentality kept alive, there will be more deaths, crimes against humanity, wars, pain, and hatred. Nothing will get better.

 

[baftan]

Semantics. If you are defending what the EU, the UN and the International community is condemning as indisputably criminal, you are no doubt a formidable legal mind. :m:

I am not defending anyone. I am correcting a false language. Semantics are the tools of people who take sides among human beings, consciously and intentionally deceive the meanings of the words in order to satisfy their chosen sides while deepening the hatred and wars. These are actually the defenders of their own personal weaknesses.

 

[fedr808]

Semantics. If you are defending what the EU, the UN and the International community is condemning as indisputably criminal, you are no doubt a formidable legal mind. :m:

it is not semantics. The idea of international waters in and of itself is a legal thing. Hence, it is not semantics it is set in stone.

The only thing that is not set in stone is in what ways you break the rules.

 

[fedr808]

I hope this will cost Israel dearly internationally.

They crossed the line by a mile here.

The sad thing is it wont.

The nato countries respect, neigh, love Israel. They see it as the no bullsh1t country that will do what they dont have the balls to do. They wouldnt stand up to Israel.

The reason they are stunned is when the UN condemns the US, the US backs down, at least somewhat. If they condemn some other 1st world country they would back down. Even the mightiest giant backs down. Yet this little spit of land that we call Israel will not back down and will flip off the UN. The UN knows that Israel considers it to be a luxury, something that is very nice to have, but that it could survive without. While every other country knows that fact about their own relationships to the UN, Israel is very willing to cut the chord when it gets in the way. And they do not want that.

 

[Sock puppet path]

The sad thing is it wont.

The nato countries respect, neigh, love Israel. They see it as the no bullsh1t country that will do what they dont have the balls to do. They wouldnt stand up to Israel.

The reason they are stunned is when the UN condemns the US, the US backs down, at least somewhat. If they condemn some other 1st world country they would back down. Even the mightiest giant backs down. Yet this little spit of land that we call Israel will not back down and will flip off the UN. The UN knows that Israel considers it to be a luxury, something that is very nice to have, but that it could survive without. While every other country knows that fact about their own relationships to the UN, Israel is very willing to cut the chord when it gets in the way. And they do not want that.

Great then cut the cord, it is high time. They flip off everybody when they say no more settlements and they flip off everybody when they say you don't shoot unarmed activists. So cut the cord, they aren't playing by the rules we dictate anyway.

 

[StrawDog]

Wrong. Palestinian people have been subject to these treatments for half a century. It's not a new thing. Turkey, however, being one of the first state which officially recognised Israel as a country as soon as it was declared (1948, even before U.S.) has always preserved very close relations with Israel up until January 2009. There is no noble intentions behind Turkish government, and no "pure" humanitarian aims behind the IHH (organisation behind this journey). This is a calculated political gain campaign. These people were thrown in front of Israel knowing that they will be stopped.

You are entitled to your opinion. However, you are stating that all the folk on board the vessels had political motives? Nonsense. :m:

There is no specific breach of any International Law. The general principle, tradition, a simplest rule of humanity is violated: Using weapons against unarmed civilians. However, this stupid organisation has already given plenty of material for Israel to justify its excessive action. This is also deeply related with the irresponsible and ignorant attitude of Turkish State policy.

Of course there is.

"Moscow has expressed condemnation and deep concern in regard to the incident in international waters, first of all taking into account of the large number of dead and injured among the participants of the humanitarian caravan," Pankin said, adding: "It is obvious that using weapons against civilians and seizing ships on the open seas without any legal basis are considered severe breaches in common international legal norms."

"Brazil considers that the incident should be the object of an independent investigation that should fully elucidate the facts in the light of human rights and international law," the statement said.

Robin Churchill, a professor of international law at the University of Dundee in Scotland, said the Israeli commandos boarded the ship outside of Israel's territorial waters.
"As far as I can see, there is no legal basis for boarding these ships," Churchill said.

Etc.

The incident is outrageous, but it was prepared by Turkish and Israeli governments for the best part of last month and presented to the world. World should ask why did they cause such an event, but they will not; because western and eastern, southern and northern they are all same hypocrites.

The incident is outrageous notwithstanding political hypocrisy. The blame for this tragedy falls squarely at the feet of Israel. A decision was made, and a crime committed.

As long as this revenge mentality kept alive, there will be more deaths, crimes against humanity, wars, pain, and hatred. Nothing will get better.

Is it your view given the above sentimental slush that this gross criminal act should be ignored and swept under the carpet, like all other Israeli transgressions?

 

[StrawDog]

I am not defending anyone. I am correcting a false language. Semantics are the tools of people who take sides among human beings, consciously and intentionally deceive the meanings of the words in order to satisfy their chosen sides while deepening the hatred and wars. These are actually the defenders of their own personal weaknesses.

Lets descend from lofty romanticism and linguistic segues and deal with the facts available. Another incident of gross disrespect for human life was perpetrated by Israel and should be punished. :m:

 

[StrawDog]

it is not semantics. The idea of international waters in and of itself is a legal thing. Hence, it is not semantics it is set in stone.

The only thing that is not set in stone is in what ways you break the rules.

Its not hard to see that what occurred is a travesty of justice. Sadly Fed, there is no way around how disgusting this issue is. :m:

 

[Bells]

And who holds an anti-Jewish rally on a ship filled with peace activists, civilians and Nobel laureates ferrying humanitarian aid? I mean, like, really, who does that?

Wring those little hands Geoff.

The people on those ships were right to defend themselves against armed invaders in international waters. They can sing whatever they damn well please. The journalists on the boats who were reporting the events as the Israeli ships approached and prior to that said nothing at all about an anti-Jewish rally. There were Jews on those ships as well in case you weren't aware. So tell me, were those Jews singing songs against themselves?

Thus far, all I see from you is an again, an attempt to justify attacking aid ships filled with peace activists from around the world and of all religious persuasions.

So wring those hands Geoff.

haha, it might have been if there wasn't so much footage of "peaceful protesters" assaulting Israeli boarding parties.
It's sooooo "illegal" to board a ship in "International Waters", if you have a 6th grade education.

Actually yes, it is illegal. Those ships were flying Turkish flags.

Those protesters were defending themselves against armed invaders on their ships in International waters. Which they are well within their legal rights to do. Israel sent armed commandos to storm the ships in the pre-dawn dark hours. Those passengers did what was within their legal rights to defend themselves against an armed invasion who came in shooting. Some reporters have stated quite clearly that they had begun to open fire on the flotilla before they even boarded.

Now, how about you board a passenger ship and float off the coast of Somalia and not defend yourself when you are boarded by armed men in International waters. You are basically saying that cruise ship passengers who use whatever they have on hand to defend themselves against pirates are committing an illegal act. International law disagrees with you. Now these passengers armed themselves with what they had on hand to defend themselves against armed commandos who stormed their ships... In International waters. Prior to that, they attempted to jam all of the communications of the people on those ships.. again, in International waters. Again.. such actions on ships registered to countries like Turkey and Greece, as well as Sweden, in International waters, is illegal.

 

[StrawDog]

Actually yes, it is illegal. Those ships were flying Turkish flags.

Those protesters were defending themselves against armed invaders on their ships in International waters. Which they are well within their legal rights to do. Israel sent armed commandos to storm the ships in the pre-dawn dark hours. Those passengers did what was within their legal rights to defend themselves against an armed invasion who came in shooting. Some reporters have stated quite clearly that they had begun to open fire on the flotilla before they even boarded.

Now, how about you board a passenger ship and float off the coast of Somalia and not defend yourself when you are boarded by armed men in International waters. You are basically saying that cruise ship passengers who use whatever they have on hand to defend themselves against pirates are committing an illegal act. International law disagrees with you. Now these passengers armed themselves with what they had on hand to defend themselves against armed commandos who stormed their ships... In International waters. Prior to that, they attempted to jam all of the communications of the people on those ships.. again, in International waters. Again.. such actions on ships registered to countries like Turkey and Greece, as well as Sweden, in International waters, is illegal.

Thanks for the legal input Bells. I am dumbfounded by the defensiveness and denial that this issue is generating. :m:

 

[baftan]

You are entitled to your opinion. However, you are stating that all the folk on board the vessels had political motives? Nonsense.

You can not find any of my sentence which is even implying that "all" the people on board had political motives. There was a year-old-baby on board. I see most of these people were actually "victims" of a political plot. Some of them could be excited activists. Yet I am not speculating on this, as I find it irrelevant comparing with what Turkey and Israel has "achieved".

Of course there is.

Really? What are they? Let's see:

From your Russian:

"It is obvious that using weapons against civilians and seizing ships on the open seas without any legal basis are considered severe breaches in common international legal norms."

Look at the underlined bit. I said exactly the same thing in my post. Reminder:

The general principle, tradition, a simplest rule of humanity is violated: Using weapons against unarmed civilians.

From Brazilian:

the incident should be the object of an independent investigation that should fully elucidate the facts in the light of human rights and international law

Does he talk about any breach of law? No he doesn't... He says it "should be" investigated. A hopeful demand.

From your professor:

As far as I can see, there is no legal basis for boarding these ships.

Look I especially didn't touch one part of Russian statement since this professor says the same thing: "without any legal basis" or "no legal basis" part. A legal info for you: Something has no legal basis, does not mean that something is illegal. See, from all corners of the world, no matter a bureaucrat, politician or a professor, you can not get any support for your supposition. You can only put yourself a person who wants to get whatever wants to hear. Escape from reality.

Etc.

There is no way you can fill this.

The incident is outrageous notwithstanding political hypocrisy. The blame for this tragedy falls squarely at the feet of Israel. A decision was made, and a crime committed.

If decision was made a month ago by two states, how on earth the blame is not shared? What a hypocrite selection.

Is it your view given the above sentimental slush that this gross criminal act should be ignored and swept under the carpet, like all other Israeli transgressions?

No, quite opposite; it is/will be the unavoidable results of any kind of "revenge-seeking" mentality. Obviously including yours, alongside Israel's. No difference whatsoever... They will say never again, you will say never Israel. Ordinary people will keep suffering and dying and this policy will enjoy life. Comfortable yet shameful.

Lets descend from lofty romanticism and linguistic segues and deal with the facts available. Another incident of gross disrespect for human life was perpetrated by Israel and should be punished.

Facts? You are far from being able to see any fact, I have been listing some of them since the start of this incident and you have never been able to discredit any of it. Instead you prefer to follow childish "whatever you say, I will believe what I want to believe" path. As long as you don't discuss facts you will get linguistic gibberish, that's how you reason, that's what you deserve.

An example from your sadness:

Its not hard to see that what occurred is a travesty of justice. Sadly Fed, there is no way around how disgusting this issue is.

"Disgusting issue", "travesty of justice"... And I bet you call these gibberish as "factual or logical approach, completely stripped of emotions and romanticism", wouldn't you? Arrogance and ignorance necessarily yield to voluntary blindness and self centric world view.

 

[baftan]

international waters

Stop this nonsense. I already proved many times that it was not international waters (you can see my related posts). What do you expect? When you say the same wrong thing again and again, is it going to turn into a "reality"? How is it going to be, magically maybe...

What you are going to do when you start to hear everybody else starts to drop this "international water" fantasy in a week or so, are you going to feel disappointment, or not even care?

 

[GeoffP]

Small-minded and foolish

Wring those little hands Geoff.

The people on those ships were right to defend themselves against armed invaders in international waters. They can sing whatever they damn well please.

How small and foolish of you. Psyching themselves up to fight Jewish people - this carries no meaning for you in context of the fight the next day? It doesn't imply anything at all about any possible intent? Do the words "set up" register at all? And yet this is a distinct possibility.

There were Jews on those ships as well in case you weren't aware. So tell me, were those Jews singing songs against themselves?

Really: this is the best you can offer? Your line of argument really makes sense to you? Do you understand what the word "some" means? It's clear what the singing was about - even al Jazeera understood it, although poor Bells didn't. Or is al Jazeera lying? Sam doesn't think so. Maybe you should have a hate-to-hate chat? Sorry: I meant a heart to heart chat. Slip of the keys, Bells.

Thus far, all I see from you is an again, an attempt to justify attacking aid ships filled with peace activists from around the world and of all religious persuasions.

Small, and foolish. Again. I'm not justifying those deaths, but I think the blame is not all only on one side.

So - wring those small hands, Bells.

Too bad, too. You might actually have had a point with the legal issues. I even agree about those. But your shortsightedness blinds you. Too bad.

Then again, the issue of international waters is debatable. Too bad you didn't see that either.

 

[Bells]

Stop this nonsense. I already proved many times that it was not international waters (you can see my related posts). What do you expect? When you say the same wrong thing again and again, is it going to turn into a "reality"? How is it going to be, magically maybe...

What you are going to do when you start to hear everybody else starts to drop this "international water" fantasy in a week or so, are you going to feel disappointment, or not even care?

I wasn't aware that Israel now lay claim to the whole of the Mediterranean Sea.

Tell me, have the settlers started to move in there as well?

 

[GeoffP]

Stop this nonsense. I already proved many times that it was not international waters (you can see my related posts). What do you expect? When you say the same wrong thing again and again, is it going to turn into a "reality"? How is it going to be, magically maybe...

In Bells' book, I'm afraid that's precisely how it works.

 

[baftan]

I wasn't aware that Israel now lay claim to the whole of the Mediterranean Sea.

Check out where the incident happened. It wasn't off Spanish or Tunisian coast. It was within Israel Exclusive Economic Zone.

Tell me, have the settlers started to move in there as well?

And you tell me what is this issue to do with the subject topic? I already indicated Turkey was one of the very first country that recognized Israel in 1948. So settlers issue was settled for Turkey.

 

[Bells]

How small and foolish of you. Psyching themselves up to fight Jewish people - this carries no meaning for you in context of the fight the next day? It doesn't imply anything at all about any possible intent? Do the words "set up" register at all? And yet this is a distinct possibility.

Psyching themselves to fight Jewish people?

No, seriously, are you for real? So the Jews on those ships were psyching themselves to fight themselves?

They were headed into Gaza. Now, unless something drastic occured prior to their ships being stormed illegally, I wasn't aware that Israel and Jews had settled in Gaza. So pray tell, what Jewish people were they psyching themselves to fight? The soldiers who were about to storm their ships fully armed? The soldiers who were jamming their communications?

Wring wring Geoff..

Really: this is the best you can offer? Your line of argument really makes sense to you? Do you understand what the word "some" means? It's clear what the singing was about - even al Jazeera understood it, although poor Bells didn't. Or is al Jazeera lying? Sam doesn't think so. Maybe you should have a hate-to-hate chat? Sorry: I meant a heart to heart chat. Slip of the keys, Bells.

When you start saying 'but.. but.. they were singing anti Jewish songs' before they were boarded.. I'm sorry, but what kind of response did you expect to get?

You got the response you deserve for that line.

The people on those ships were doing what they were legally entitled to do, that is to defend themselves against armed invaders on their ships with whatever arms they have on hand. Now, it beggars belief that a group of armed commandos can be over-run so easily by people with plastic deck chairs and a few iron sticks and some knives (of which I've seen no evidence yet)... It is astounding how a supposed group of "crack commandos" can allow themselves to be disarmed (yes, that's right, the guns that were supposedly confiscated from the passengers were the guns that were taken from the soldiers).. I'm sorry, but what did the Israelis expect? They were surprised by the reception they received on those ships? What did they expect when they aggressively buzzed those ships and jammed their communications and then boarded them illegally in the dead of night with guns blazing?

Small, and foolish. Again. I'm not justifying those deaths, but I think the blame is not all only on one side.

Right, so you think Israel was correct in storming those ships as they did? Tell me, if you're on a ship and you see armed commandos storming it, you'd go and hug them? Cower like the coward you are? There were children on those ships Geoff. There were religious activists, there were politicians, observers from human rights groups, peace activists from all religious persuasions, from all walks of life. But what do you say? Well they attacked the people who stormed their ships and they were singing anti-Jewish songs.. I'm sorry, does that absolve Israel's illegal act? No.

So - wring those small hands, Bells.

You see, I don't need to wring my hands Geoff.

Too bad, too. You might actually have had a point with the legal issues. I even agree about those. But your shortsightedness blinds you. Too bad.

Then again, the issue of international waters is debatable. Too bad you didn't see that either.

Oh I'm well aware that Israel was acting outside of its territorial boundaries, attacking ships registered to other countries, ships it knew were carrying aid and peace activists and journalists. So what does that tell you?

And as to be expected, as Israel attempts to flood the world media with its excuses, they have also seen fit to ban all the passengers from having outside contact..

The Israeli military censor later ordered a ban on all information regarding those injured or killed. Journalists and activists travelling in the flotilla were unable to make telephone or internet contact after Israeli forces began their raid.

http://www.theage.com.au/world/gaza-flotilla-attack-australian-injured-20100531-wrae.html?autostart=1

Australia, at least, is awaiting to speak to the two journalists who were on the ships, and it is also awaiting to have contact with one other Australian who was shot in the leg. Thus far, contact attempts with them have been unsuccessful. Time will tell.

But at the end of the day, Israel has done tremendous damage to itself with this attack. Up to 19 peace activists dead on an aid ship? If this keeps up, they will end up destroying themselves as the world pulls its support. They have damaged themselves more than any 'terrorist' organisation or suicide bomber could ever do.

 

[Bells]

Check out where the incident happened. It wasn't off Spanish or Tunisian coast. It was within Israel Exclusive Economic Zone.

I'd suggest you read up on what Israel is allowed and not allowed to do baftan.

Storming those ships, where those ships were, was illegal.

And you tell me what is this issue to do with the subject topic? I already indicated Turkey was one of the very first country that recognized Israel in 1948. So settlers issue was settled for Turkey.

Sarcasm escapes you, doesn't it?

 

[CheskiChips]

I'd suggest you read up on what Israel is allowed and not allowed to do baftan.

Storming those ships, where those ships were, was illegal.



Sarcasm escapes you, doesn't it?

I never understand what this "illegal" means. Illegal according to who?

Israel did not sign the Law of the Sea Convention, so any laws it states...Israel is not held responsible to. This idea of "international law" is silly. Btw, Turkey didn't sign it either

 

[StrawDog]

You can not find any of my sentence which is even implying that "all" the people on board had political motives. There was a year-old-baby on board. I see most of these people were actually "victims" of a political plot. Some of them could be excited activists. Yet I am not speculating on this, as I find it irrelevant comparing with what Turkey and Israel has "achieved".

No problem, my error.

Really? What are they? Let's see:
From your Russian:
Look at the underlined bit. I said exactly the same thing in my post. Reminder:
From Brazilian:
Does he talk about any breach of law? No he doesn't... He says it "should be" investigated. A hopeful demand.
From your professor:
Look I especially didn't touch one part of Russian statement since this professor says the same thing: "without any legal basis" or "no legal basis" part. A legal info for you: Something has no legal basis, does not mean that something is illegal. See, from all corners of the world, no matter a bureaucrat, politician or a professor, you can not get any support for your supposition. You can only put yourself a person who wants to get whatever wants to hear. Escape from reality.

Don`t get your knickers in a knot. There are clear violations and thus implications around "legality" which will be investigated in due course. As there were in Gaza, and as Goldstone meticulously documented.

If decision was made a month ago by two states, how on earth the blame is not shared? What a hypocrite selection.

Who enforces the Gaza blockade leading to human rights abuses that requires humanitarian interventions? Who boarded a civilian vessel by force of arms in international waters? Answer the questions, them we can explore the bigger picture.

No, quite opposite; it is/will be the unavoidable results of any kind of "revenge-seeking" mentality. Obviously including yours, alongside Israel's. No difference whatsoever... They will say never again, you will say never Israel. Ordinary people will keep suffering and dying and this policy will enjoy life. Comfortable yet shameful.

You are less than articulate and I am struggling to follow. Please expand your position so I can understand what you are saying. Revenge seeking? Policy? What are you talking about?

Facts? You are far from being able to see any fact, I have been listing some of them since the start of this incident and you have never been able to discredit any of it.

Discredit what?

Instead you prefer to follow childish "whatever you say, I will believe what I want to believe" path. As long as you don't discuss facts you will get linguistic gibberish, that's how you reason, that's what you deserve.

Again, I do not follow?

An example from your sadness:
"Disgusting issue", "travesty of justice"... And I bet you call these gibberish as "factual or logical approach, completely stripped of emotions and romanticism", wouldn't you? Arrogance and ignorance necessarily yield to voluntary blindness and self centric world view.

I am confused. Please articulate your points and position.