Zionist piracy

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... If it's true the activists beat and stabbed IDF troops as they boarded the ship in question, and they endangered the lives of those troops, then they're more responsible for the shooting than anyone else.
Are you saying the ship has no right to self defense when pirates board on the high seas? Or that IDF, boarding in the middle of the night, was not acting as pirates, or both?

The IDF could have come along side, during daylight hours, sent a lightly armed inspection force on board as the US Coast Guard does for drug control in the Gulf of Mexico. More force, but only as needed, is then used if the requested inspection boarding is refused. Israel does have the right to keep weapons from arriving, but not to kill 19, critically wound 27 and injure >60 with a night time boarding.

... the issue could have been brought before international authorities ...
That is not realistic as "international authorities" lack the will or ability to punish Israel - for example the use of white phosphorus against cities. - Nothing has happened to Israel for that internationally recognized war crime (or many others).

Nothing has happened to Israel for the now nearly completed extermination of the Bedouins. (All still living are now confined in one of three concentration camp cities in the worst part of the Negev Desert. Israel's exterminations of them is more complete than Hitler's efforts as only about 10% of the pre-Israel number still live and essentially none can escape to live in their traditional way as a special Israeli "green force" surrounds the cities. "Green" as they are protecting the fragile desert from same use it had for more than 5000 years prior to the existence of Israel! ) Even other Arabs tend to regard the nomadic Bedouins as European regard the Gypsi, so no one makes much fuss about their extermination.
 
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Are you saying the ship has no right to self defense when pirates board on the high seas? Or that IDF, boarding in the middle of the night, was not acting as pirates, or both?

I'm saying that, unless Israel is lying through its teeth about what actually happened, I don't see how it can be called an act of piracy. If this was an act of piracy, then for all it matters a ship full of civilian activists from North Korea could set sail for Gaza, with 10 000lbs of explosives stashed in their holds, and there wouldn't be a damn thing anyone could do about it unless they already had proof of what it was carrying. Columbian ships stuffed with cocaine would also have to be left unhindered until they actually entered US territorial waters. Unlike Somali piracy, we're dealing with a case here where ships are intentionally sailing into a well-recognized war zone. We're not talking about Israeli ships plundering goods off the coast of Italy, we're talking about a country with a return address that can be held accountable for the actions of its armed forces.

I smell a rat here, it seems from what I've been reading that there are people involved with the activists who wanted a clash like this and were willing to provoke one if the opportunity arose. If I were Israel, I would have challenged them, ultimately let them through, and put the supporting nations on notice that if these flotillas continue to break the blockade, and violence erupts within Gaza at some point afterwards, those supporters will be held responsible for the outcome. If Turkey chooses to side with Hamas then great, let them be considered a single entity, and any violence on their part will be recognized for what it is.
 
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The IDF could have come along side, during daylight hours, sent a lightly armed inspection force on board as the US Coast Guard does for drug control in the Gulf of Mexico. More force, but only as needed, is then used if the requested inspection boarding is refused. Israel does have the right to keep weapons from arriving, but not to kill 19, critically wound 27 and injure >60 with a night time boarding.

No doubts it was a major screwup, the IDF should have proceeded far more cautiously, and they should be held accountable for their failure to handle the situation in a less disastrous manner, but that shouldn't exempt anyone who initiated actual violence.
 
ireland weighs in...

The Minister for Foreign Affairs has accused Israel of kidnapping Irish citizens in international waters. Micheál Martin is furious after Israel announced it would deport all foreign nationals seized from a convoy of ships carrying aid to Gaza. Israel launched an attack on the flotilla overnight, killing at least 10 people and wounding dozens more. Seven Irish passport holders have been taken to the Israeli port of Ashdod from where it is planned to deport them. One has already signed papers agreeing to the move. But Minister Martin said he has told the Israeli Ambassador Dr Zion Evrony that the Government wants these Irish citizens released immediately. "The Israeli government requires people to sign papers so that they can be deported," Minister Martin said. "But of course these people did not enter Israel illegally. "They were essentially kidnapped from international waters, taken into Israel.. And now they are being asked to sign a document almost confirming that they entered illegally.​
i wonder if any americans were killed or injured

/frown

a moment of silence in this holiest of days please...
The USS Liberty incident was an attack on a United States Navy technical research ship, USS Liberty, by Israeli jet fighter planes and motor torpedo boats, on June 8, 1967, during the Six-Day War. The combined air and sea attack killed 34 crew members (naval officers, seamen, two Marines, and a civilian), wounded 171 crew members, and severely damaged the ship. At the time, the ship was in international waters north of the Sinai Peninsula, about 25.5 nmi (29.3 mi; 47.2 km) northwest from the Egyptian city of Arish.

Both the Israeli and U.S, governments conducted inquiries into the incident, and issued reports, which concluded that the attack was a mistake, due to Israeli confusion about the identity of the USS Liberty. Some U.S. diplomats, veterans and intelligence officials involved in the incident continue to dispute these official findings, saying the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty was not a mistake, and it remains the only major maritime incident in U.S. history not investigated by the U.S. Congress.​

 
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... If this was an act of piracy, then for all it matters a ship full of civilian activists from North Korea could set sail for Gaza, with 10 000lbs of explosives stashed in their holds, and there wouldn't be a damn thing anyone could do about it unless they already had proof of what it was carrying. Columbian ships stuffed with cocaine would also have to be left unhindered until they actually entered US territorial waters. ...
No, I agree governments can board to inspect ships on the high seas, but whenever possible, as it was in this case, they should do so as the US Coast guard does. Request to have a small, lightly armed inspection force board and ONLY if refused use more force and only to the level needed. Not a night-time full-force invasion of the ship as first effort.
 
Who sends commandos, tear gas, stun grenades and machine guns at night to a ship filled with peace activists, civilians and Nobel laureates ferrying humanitarian aid?
 
to CptBork:

In view of the facts presented in second half of my post 121 (war crime use of white phosphorous against cities, the nearly complete extermination of the Bedouins, etc.) with no "international authority" doing any thing to punish Israel; Do you now agree it is silly to suggest that the people on the boat should not have resisted the night-time pirate-style boarding but have taken their case later to "international authorities"?
 
to CptBork:

In view of the facts presented in second half of my post 121 (war crime use of white phosphorous against cities, the nearly complete extermination of the Bedouins, etc.) with no "international authority" doing any thing to punish Israel; Do you now agree it is silly to suggest that the people on the boat should not have resisted the night-time pirate-style boarding but have taken their case later to "international authorities"?

No, I don't think it's silly to go to the "international authorities". Far better than trying to kill a boarding party when there's another option to get the goods into Gaza anyhow. As far as claims about white phosphorus and Bedouin genocide: I don't believe the full story as given by any individual party, but I too believe justice is not being done at present. Regardless, a shooting rampage is not an acceptable substitute for proof and due process.

I believe it's up to the governments responsible for the activists to press their case on the international stage. Activists don't make international law, and they shouldn't get away with triggering an armed conflict just to make a point. You can't send people walking around in the street so some of them will get hit by reckless drivers, and then hold the drivers as solely responsible.
 
The reason there is a blockade in Gaza and even occupation in Palestine is because of these "international authorities" After what happened in Gaza last year, they have little or no credibility. The Arab league has been going to the "international authorities" since 1948.

What has that resolved?
 
... I too believe justice is not being done at present. Regardless, a shooting rampage is not an acceptable substitute for proof and due process. ...
Who made this "shooting rampage"? Not one "peace activist" according to news reporters on the ships. (Well perhaps the guy with marbles and slingshot, did.) Why the Israeli blackout on the Australian reporters?

Who was hit by bullets? Not one IDF member according to all reports.
 
Not one mention of Hamas in all your defense of the Gaza activists, unbelievable. How do you guys think Hamas is able to maintain it's power? Because it provides humanitarian services for the citizens who in turn support the terrorist regime! The blockade is a just form of defense against the terrorist threat.

I of course do not know the exact circumstances of these reported deaths, but I do know Palestinians generally haven't a clue what non-violent protest means.

Edit: Video clearly shows the IDF soldiers being attacked. Israel just wanted to stop these ships, the deaths were therefore the fault of the violent (we cannot call them peace activists anymore) protesters.
 
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Who sends commandos, tear gas, stun grenades and machine guns at night to a ship filled with peace activists, civilians and Nobel laureates ferrying humanitarian aid?

And who holds an anti-Jewish rally on a ship filled with peace activists, civilians and Nobel laureates ferrying humanitarian aid? I mean, like, really, who does that?
 
More video from the Mavi Marmara, one of the flotilla boats. I was worried that it was a riot or worse: and apparently it was. It's quite the vid. The soldiers rappel in and are immediately attacked.

Do we take at face value - in what must invariably become another massive brouhaha - the claim that IDF soldiers landing on the boat are no different than Somali pirates? What are our criteria?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LulDJh4fWI
 
More video from the Mavi Marmara, one of the flotilla boats. I was worried that it was a riot or worse: and apparently it was. It's quite the vid. The soldiers rappel in and are immediately attacked.

Do we take at face value - in what must invariably become another massive brouhaha - the claim that IDF soldiers landing on the boat are no different than Somali pirates? What are our criteria?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LulDJh4fWI

Yep, I feel badly for anyone who wasn't involved in the fighting and ended up getting hurt, but as for those protesters who decided to resort to knives, poles and possibly worse... f*ck the whole lot of them.
 
... The soldiers rappel in and are immediately attacked. ...
There are well established procedures for inspecting a ship that may be carrying drugs or weapons, that if followed would have avoided this loss of life. Those procedures begin by asking the captain for permission to board and inspect. The US Coast guard and many other national naval forces do this every day. If permission is denied then greater force can be used.

Israeli IDF ignored this. Started with commando raid at night. What did they expect?
 
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There are well established procedures for inspecting a ship that may be carrying drugs or weapons, that if followed would have avoided this loss of life. Those procedures begin by asking the captain for permission to board and inspect. The US Coast guard and many other national naval forces do this every day. If permission is denied then greater force can be used.

Israeli ignored this. Started with commando raid at night. What did they expect?

"It should be emphasized that both the State of Israel and the IDF made repeated calls to the flotilla, telling them that all goods and humanitarian aid could be transferred according to the secure and approved methods in place today, as is done on a near daily basis," the Israel Defense Forces said in a written statement. {CNN}​
 

"It should be emphasized that both the State of Israel and the IDF made repeated calls to the flotilla, telling them that all goods and humanitarian aid could be transferred according to the secure and approved methods in place today, as is done on a near daily basis," the Israel Defense Forces said in a written statement. {CNN}​
Agreed that the flotilla also had objective of breaking the blockade as well as delivering aid. None the less Israel should have tired normal procedures to inspect for smuggling of weapons etc. instead on night time commando raid. I don't know for sure, but believe a blockade is an act of war.

By edit: I just checked at wiki where they quote another source as follows:
“A blockade is defined by the Encyclopedia Britannica as an "an act of war by which a belligerent prevents access to or departure from a defined part of the enemy’s coasts."[4]…”
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade#Act_of_war

I made part of your post bold and note that currently there are only 81 approved items of that "approved methods in place today" allowed in. For example of what cannot enter are certain spices and all types of children's plastic toys - very dangerous items indeed.
 
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They were still in International waters Geoff. When armed people storm your ship in international waters, what does that amount to? Are you saying that the people on that boat should not have tried to defend themselves against armed men who stormed their boat shooting in the dead of night?

not only that they were more than twice the distance(almost 3 times it in fact) that a legal argument could be made for this brutal attack. a state can only legally act in a band the reaches 24 nautical miles from their baseline.
 
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