That's where most of America's $3 billion goes every year, it's for making propaganda movies with budgets on the scale of Waterworld. They were doing a practice film shoot with a mockup Mavi Marmara (which was actually on old repainted Thai fishing vessel) and then it sank, that was a big setback. That's why the commando raid killings happened- the IDF had to delay things a bit while they brought in a new vessel for filming, then they were able to fill in the gaps a few hours later.
Zionist piracy
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That's where most of America's $3 billion goes every year, it's for making propaganda movies with budgets on the scale of Waterworld. They were doing a practice film shoot with a mockup Mavi Marmara (which was actually on old repainted Thai fishing vessel) and then it sank, that was a big setback. That's why the commando raid killings happened- the IDF had to delay things a bit while they brought in a new vessel for filming, then they were able to fill in the gaps a few hours later.
Notice the pattern here everyone: Anything Israel says or does is a lie, any video or audio they send is faked unless it incriminates them, and even then only the parts where Israel is incriminated are authentic. Anything Israel's opponents say is 100% credible and true, and must be believed word for word. There is no contradiction between their own footage of the fighting, and their later accounts to the news that none of the passengers attempted any sort of resistance.
If the credibility of the protesters is in any sort of doubt, note that these same individuals were burning down the gates of Beirut when hundreds of Palestinians were massacred by Lebanese forces in 2007 and their homes razed to the ground. These protesters were also willing to martyr themselves by forming human chains in Sderot to surround the schools and homes when they were under daily bombardment by rockets, and they've repeatedly demanded of Hamas that it cease its threats of violence against Israeli civilians and its summary executions of hundreds of Fatah members.
If the credibility of the protesters is in any sort of doubt, note that these same individuals were burning down the gates of Beirut when hundreds of Palestinians were massacred by Lebanese forces in 2007 and their homes razed to the ground. These protesters were also willing to martyr themselves by forming human chains in Sderot to surround the schools and homes when they were under daily bombardment by rockets, and they've repeatedly demanded of Hamas that it cease its threats of violence against Israeli civilians and its summary executions of hundreds of Fatah members.
Israel is:
There is a great deal of outrage globally. For example a Google search for “boycotts of Israel” has 3.58 million hits from many different countries and organization. Israel’s outrageous behavior over many years is part of the reason Brazil’s President recently visited Iran and welcomed Iran’s president to Brazil about 6 months ago. Here is brief sample of those Google hits:
“… Boycotts have been proposed outside the Arab world and the Muslim world. These boycotts comprise economic measures such as divestment; a consumer boycotts of Israeli products or businesses that operate in Israel; a proposed academic boycott of Israeli universities and scholars; and a proposed boycott of Israeli cultural institutions or Israeli sport venues. Many advocates of the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) campaign, including Archbishop Desmond Tutu use the 1980s movement against South African apartheid as a model. …” From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_and_political_boycotts_of_Israel
From a British source (http://www.inminds.co.uk/boycott-israel.html) : “…People of good conscience have chosen to boycott Israeli products and companies supporting the Zionist entity. Their ethical purchasing decision however is frustrated by the lack of accurate information as to which companies to boycott. We have carried out extensive research to identify the guilty companies. All our findings are provided here. …”
40% of Norwegians are supporting a boycott, according to local newspaper survey:
Veterans of the South African struggle against apartheid put forward the case for sanctions and boycott of Israel ...
From the US: “The Coalition for Justice in the Middle East and the New York Campaign for the Boycott of Israel (NYCBI) are pleased to announce their merger and ... www.boycottisraelnyc.org…”
Thousands of famous individuals are lending their fame to the boycott movement. Here is one and start of her article in the Guardian:
I could easily make a 20 page post, but stop here. However, Naomi is correct: I know from my days as a leader* in the US’s civil rights movement that the only thing that works – persuades an oppressor to stop abusing his victims is economic pain.
It worked in South Africa, freed Mandela etc. It can work in Israel because Israel has an alternative** to the High Kill Ratio policy, which would actually REDUCE the loss of Israeli lives. I.e. use technology to make a nearly perfect defense and ignore the Palestinians for about two generations*** – long enough for the citizens of two separate states, who on both sides are now so filled with hate that they cannot act in their own best interest to die of old age in their beds. Then, and only then, can real peace between neighbors be achieved.
I want this policy change to happen before black balloons filled with infectious anthrax or Ebola spores start drifting over Tel Aviv and Haifa from the sea of other Israeli cities from across the border with Jordan, Syria and Egypt on moonless night when the wind is right. With the current level of abuse and resulting hate, there are many willing to die launching them - they have little to live for, except vengeance.
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* For details on what my role in US civil rights movement was, See the PS here:
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=2563457&postcount=1440
** For one of those alternatives to the current High Kill Ratio policy, which could save Israeli lives, see:
http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1124159&postcount=115
*** The sea blockade stopping weapons would probably need to continue for a generation or so.
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true but Israel to a certain extent has brought that distrust on themselves. Have you ever heard of an Israeli investigation where the result was we fucked up we were in the wrong? No they are always the same. we did nothing wrong or we could have done better but what ever we did we were right to do it.
I don't believe the Israeli line for the same reason I don't usualy believe the US government line any investigation almost always exonerates the people involved and staistically that's just not very likely.
That is true. Israel has never even apologized to the relatives, or Brazil, for killing a Brazilian family of four, on holiday, in their beds the first night of the invasion of Lebanon. They were among the first of >3000 to die because two Israeli soldier were killed by rocket fired into Israel from Lebanon. Many, including several posters here, sincerely believe Israel can do no wrong.
That is obviously false: Israel confines the peaceful Bedouins in concentration camps on 1% of the Negev. (The worst part with very infertile soil and no ground water, where no Israeli wants to settle.)* Forced them from the land they lived on (Sinai & Negev deserts) for >5000 years to make room for new Israeli settlers. Paid no compensation as their old Ottoman Empire deeds to the land are not recognized as valid. When a few slip out on moonless nights and try to reoccupy their former village cites, soon hunger will force them back to the camps as an Israeli crop duster plane will spray herbicide on their crops.
Their village, of course, no longer exists - It was bulldozed into rubble and even its name was erased from all the maps. In another generation or two at the most, Israel's "final solution" to the Bedouin problem will be completed (only about 10 to 15 % of their original population still live in Israel now) and even thought most are born citizens of Israel, they have zero civil rights. But Israel can do no wrong.
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* Israel trucks in food and water in more adequate supplies than the Nazis did, but now there are no fat Bedouins - At least none I saw in the BBC's documentary on their plight.
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Well, which posters?
It is hard (impossible?) to know what posters believe, but Mr. Spock would be at the top of my suspect list.
I have nothing against that, I myself mentioned it made sense to complain that Israel monopolizes all the available info. Nothing should be trusted when you're denied a means of cross-examining it. Giving instant credence to everything the other side says doesn't help either, it encourages radicals with a much deeper and more aggressive agenda.
Fixing blame is a nice poster's game but what happens now is the real one:
"The U.S., United Nations, European Union and Russia are jointly consulting with Israel, the Palestinian Authority and Egypt on a “fundamental change in policy” toward the Gaza Strip, a State Department spokesman said.
{The US state} Department spokesman Philip J. Crowley said the Quartet will issue a statement affirming that the current situation in Gaza is “unsustainable and unacceptable and not in the interests of anyone concerned.” *
From: http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aQ3bkHZSs7V8&pos=8
Note The above was the shorter first edition, but there has been an update, only about 15 minutes later, and now although much longer text, the words in blue have disappeared!
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* Sort of sound like what I have been saying for 6 years WHILE offering a practical alternative to save lives (on both sides) as well as make business opportunities for Israel's high tech industries.
"The U.S., United Nations, European Union and Russia are jointly consulting with Israel, the Palestinian Authority and Egypt on a “fundamental change in policy” toward the Gaza Strip, a State Department spokesman said.
{The US state} Department spokesman Philip J. Crowley said the Quartet will issue a statement affirming that the current situation in Gaza is “unsustainable and unacceptable and not in the interests of anyone concerned.” *
From: http://noir.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aQ3bkHZSs7V8&pos=8
Note The above was the shorter first edition, but there has been an update, only about 15 minutes later, and now although much longer text, the words in blue have disappeared!
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* Sort of sound like what I have been saying for 6 years WHILE offering a practical alternative to save lives (on both sides) as well as make business opportunities for Israel's high tech industries.
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You don't know what sarcasm is do you?
I know, I know! Thank god the elders of zion were able to teleport a new vessel in with there amazing telekentic powers!
See that what I'm talking about Billy, speak it Bork!
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It does escape me at times. I tend to take words at face value, especially when they come from one who more often than not is defending Israel. It would help me if you used:
next time. (I think that is what it is for. )That's pretty much what the Kahan Commision's investigation into the Sabra & Shatila massacres (which was undertaken in response to mass protests by hundreds of thousands of Israeli civilians) concluded, actually.
than I suggest they watch Anthony Bourdain in Beirut He was in Beirut with his camera crew filming for his travel channel show. Some of the images are haunting.
Um no it concluded that no Israelis were direct responsible
Which is correct: it wasn't Israelis that killed the residents of Sabra & Shatila, or planned the massacre, etc. The Phalange were the ones directly responsible. Israel was responsible for failing to anticipate what was likely to occur, or respond to what they later had evidence was occurring.
Let's please not divert the thread, but downplaying murderous Israeli complicity in Sabra/Shatila is akin to denying the Shoah, and that sort of whitewash should never be left unchallenged.
In our view, [Ariel Sharon] made a grave mistake when he ignored the danger of acts of revenge and bloodshed by the Phalangists against the population in the refugee camps ... It is our view that responsibility is to be imputed to the minister of defense for having disregarded the danger of acts of vengeance and bloodshed by the Phalangists against the population of the refugee camps, and having failed to take this danger into account when he decided to move the Phalangists into the camps. In addition, responsibility is to be imputed to the minister of defense for not ordering appropriate measures for preventing or reducing the danger of massacre as a condition for the Phalangists' entry into the camps. These blunders constitute the non-fulfillment of a duty with which the defense minister was charged.
The [Kahan] commission interviewed no Palestinian survivors but it was allowed to become the narrative of history. The idea that the Israelis went on handing over prisoners to their bloodthirsty militia allies never occurred to us. The Palestinians of Sabra and Chatila are now giving evidence that this is exactly what happened.
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Since that's obviously directed at me, I'll point at that I'm not "whitewashing" or "downplaying" anything: nothing in the material you posted in response conflicts with what I've said in the slightest.
So, since you're derailing a thread in order to misrepresent and slander me - all without the slightest trace of substance - you'll get the response you deserve: fuck off and die, you shithead troll.
That's not the pattern.Cpt said:
The pattern is that anything from Israeli military is automatically suspect, unreliable in matters large or small, manipulation in all likelihood, and not to be taken as a basis of discussion.
That's all.
The projection of that simple and well-supported recommendation into imagined worlds of people believing everything the Iranians say, say, is the intended elicitation of the Israeli media influences - a very competent and obviously successful organization of professionals.
The information there, and much other by now familiar information, does conflict with this statement:quadrophonics said:
Israel was responsible for far more than that - and the supposition that they "failed to anticipate" what they appear to have enabled, aided, abetted, and subsequently concealed and excused, is not reasonable. It is whitewashing and downplaying, as described.quadro said:
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Sort of like, to paraphrase, and excuse the CIA, instead of Israel:
It wasn't the CIA that tortured the people renditioned to another country or planned their torture. Others were directly responsible. The CIA was responsible for failing to anticipate that they would be tortured, or not stopping renditions when they got evidence that torture was occurring.
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